Vindicare Assassin and Look Out Sir!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Double post ;)

 

The thing is, 40k is very punishing of 'one use' abilities. This isn't an RPG, its a skirmish sized wargame (usually, Apoc notwithstanding). Its just dumb to have any one-use abilities in the game, when your model may die before using it, or fluff it the one time he does.

 

I understand it might float your boat to have 'more tactics', but the facts are, you want the Vindicare to do something each turn. Yes, that may mean its really just Hellfire for sniping anything that isn't a character/tank, and Turbo-Pen for characters and tanks, but the important point is the player chooses. You aren't denied the flexibility you paid for (remember, he's around conversion beamer/PsyDread cost to field, and less flexible as he can't kill more than a single model per turn). Add in the fact he's pretty easy to murder (sigh, used to be 3 wounds, now 2), and you might only get a single use out of him anyway. Functionally, I get typically three turns out of him at best, then the enemy assault/shoot him to death successfully (Stealth is very nice to have).

 

The especially nice thing they've finally done with our latest codex is match his pistol and rifle. Before, the Exitus pistol was a glorified handgun that maybe would kill maybe an infantry model or two before he would fold in combat. Now, you can move+shoot and still have all the same awesome damage potential as the stationary rifle (you would never Snap Shot with him by choice). Limiting him to one special round of each type per game would make the pistol completely useless.

[worloch]

Any model might die before you get to use something you paid points for - one use or many. Examples include combi-X weapons, Hunter Killer Missiles, and the numerous Missiles and Bombs (Stormraven, Valkyrie, Voidraven, etc, etc). You might purchase Melta-bombs for a character and die before you get to use it. You might purchase a Dreadnought, and it might die before it even gets a chance to move.

 

It's the nature of the game. Limited uses have a place as a mechanic because they allow the particular use to be more powerful, because it can't be used all the time.

 

My favorite current example is the Manticore - 4 shots, but those 4 shots can be extremely effective. Can they also be flubbed? Sure, thats part of the game, but it doesn't make it worthless or a bad choice.

 

I totally agree with you on the Pistol thing - but I think it was actually the wrong direction to go. I was (and am) happy they made the pistol worthwhile. I was saddened they just made it a copy of the rifle instead of giving it cool rules of its own.

 

 

Now, you say:

Yes, that may mean its really just Hellfire for sniping anything that isn't a character/tank, and Turbo-Pen for characters and tanks, but the important point is the player chooses.

Which is exactly my point actually. The player chose, yes, but the target, not the shot in a real sense. Also, since I rolled the current Hellfire effect in to the default profile, anytime you would be "Hellfire Sniping" in the current state, you would just *not* be using a special round in my outlined idea. The player still chooses the target, and now has the extra choice of deciding it is worth a limited resource.

 

 

Anyways, as I said above, it is highly unlikely that any of what I proposed will actually matter as a discussion point at any time in the foreseeable future.

[shortysl]

He can still cap non-sergeant upgrade characters: the "free" guys in units with the melta guns, missile launchers, etc. That's also pretty worthy and oft-overlooked...until now. You can also use him to force some awkward decisions on opponents...did you chew their unit down to a few models, all of which are upgraded? Shoot the big bad IC. He rolls a 1 and takes the hit...or he rolls a 2+ and then choses a still valuable model to take the fall.

 

I completely agree on the point about being able to take out Special/Heavy Weapon troopers with ease, but to me this then becomes a matter of points cost vs. effectiveness. 145 points is a lot. Is it worth the ability to take out specific weapons? To be honest I'm tempted to say yes; such losses in the new rules can ensure that your Grey Knight Terminators don't have to fear Plasma Weapons (probably the firearm of choice for many armies in the future). It also means the ability to neutralise weapons that can glance Transports to death.

 

I've since managed to purchase the rulebook and I don't believe the Vindicare has become ineffective. Ok, he's not a Character-killer anymore (which is kind of the point of a Sniper I believe), but he's also not a total loss. With the introduction of the new rules target priority is going to change; those weapon specialists are probably the greater threat now.

 

Reduction of cover saves is a minor issue; he'll likely only get a 4+ cover save with Stealth instead of 3+, but again, dooes this reduce his worth that much? I don't believe so. Assassins are always going to be high on the threat list for opponents, and as the old saying goes: any weapon firing at your Assassin is a weapon that ISN'T firing at any other unit in your army.

 

All in all, I suspect that the Vindicare will remain in my list.

[boreas]

If worse comes to worse, use your vindicare to man an Icarus lascannon or quad-gun :P With BS 8, he should bring down birds pretty fast! He also get cover save 3+ in the process!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

It's the nature of the game. Limited uses have a place as a mechanic because they allow the particular use to be more powerful, because it can't be used all the time.

 

Except the old rounds and new 'all the time' rounds are identical, thus rendering your argument moot. Yes, if they made the new rounds more OP, then I would see maybe an argument for 'once per game'. As it is though, we get essentially the same Vindicare as before. So, I'll have all my special ammo every turn thanks. Your example with HK's or combi-weapons doesn't take into account that both of those options are CHEAP and OPTIONAL upgrades. Vindicare is neither cheap, and his special ammo is a mandatory piece of equipment (ie included in his price).

 

My favorite current example is the Manticore - 4 shots, but those 4 shots can be extremely effective. Can they also be flubbed? Sure, thats part of the game, but it doesn't make it worthless or a bad choice.

 

Quite different. Storm Eagle rockets are very powerful (even more so now, with no halving Strength for blast damage), and the cheap cost of the platform required some kind of balancing mechanic. Also, each Storm Eagle generates D3 blasts, so each 'one use' shot is pretty efficient.

 

I totally agree with you on the Pistol thing - but I think it was actually the wrong direction to go. I was (and am) happy they made the pistol worthwhile. I was saddened they just made it a copy of the rifle instead of giving it cool rules of its own.

 

I thought it made good sense. It made the pistol relevant, gave the Vindicare some mobility at close range, and made it easy to balance (exactly the same trade-offs with special ammo selection as the rifle).

 

If worse comes to worse, use your vindicare to man an Icarus lascannon or quad-gun With BS 8, he should bring down birds pretty fast! He also get cover save 3+ in the process!

 

:teehee: Is that legit? I'm so doing that next game against Guard. Goodbye Valkyries!