Vanguard Vets and Heroic Intervention

[Gregornet]

So, this is something that just came up in another thread and I am afraid I'm missing something. Vanguard Veterans using Heroic Intervention and Descent of Angels. The squad deep strikes, say 3.5"-4" away from an enemy unit, giving room for error with and relying on the new pile in at initiative step rule. The unit scatters D6", and then deploys around the center model in a circle, giving a full base closer to the enemy unit. Overwatch could cause issues, but even with that in mind, 2D6" assault range gives a much better chance to make the move to base to base than in 5th edition.

 

Thoughts? Incorrect assumptions or rules interpretations on my part? I'll try this tactic out on Tuesday and see how it works.

[Leksington]

So, this is something that just came up in another thread and I am afraid I'm missing something. Vanguard Veterans using Heroic Intervention and Descent of Angels. The squad deep strikes, say 3.5"-4" away from an enemy unit, giving room for error with and relying on the new pile in at initiative step rule. The unit scatters D6", and then deploys around the center model in a circle, giving a full base closer to the enemy unit. Overwatch could cause issues, but even with that in mind, 2D6" assault range gives a much better chance to make the move to base to base than in 5th edition.

 

Thoughts? Incorrect assumptions or rules interpretations on my part? I'll try this tactic out on Tuesday and see how it works.

Depending on your risk analysis, an incorrect assumption could be that you have a better assault range in 6th.

 

An 8" charge will fail 58% of the time.

A 7" charge will fail 41.6% of the time.

A 6" charge will fail 27.7% (about 1/4th) of the time.

A 5" charge will fail 16.6% of the time.

a 4" charge will fail 8.33% of the time.

 

I find a 25% failure rate unacceptable, and won't risk charing them more than 5" inches, but that is just me. Definitely give them a try! Your 3.5-4 inch spot might work out well(especially since the DS mishap table is more forgiving now). For a five man squad, you do have that extra inch wiggle room you identified from how you surround the initial model.

 

Note: I haven't given it much thought, but maybe there is some synergy with Librarian powers I haven't considered.

[Atlantic]

Are you including the re-rolls you get on rolling your charges with jump packs in your mathematics?

 

I don't think it is as dire as your calculations present.

[Leksington]

Are you including the re-rolls you get on rolling your charges with jump packs in your mathematics?

 

I don't think it is as dire as your calculations present.

You don't get to use your JP on the HI charge (aka no re-rolls).

 

Edit: If you want to double check on that, it is on the first page of the BA FAQ.

[Atlantic]

I'm not sure what that means.

 

From what I read yesterday, I do not recall using your jump packs to move forcing you to give up your rerolls.

 

This is all getting fuzzy, it would seem to me the only disadvantage there is that you cannot use your jump packs to go more than 6" if you take advantage of the additional move allowed by jump packs during the assault phase.

 

Unless I've got this all screwed up, I don't see why you wouldn't get Hammer of Wrath or the ability to re-roll.

 

(I've just been hanging at the shop messing around with the half dozen whose books showed up this weekend. Mine isn't coming till Friday)

[JMac]

Where in the rule book does it say that DS in counts as using your Jump Pack movement? It is obvious it is intended that way, but I need written clarification ;) Thanks in advance.

 

EDIT: Nevermind, found it in the FAQ.

[Gregornet]

Are you including the re-rolls you get on rolling your charges with jump packs in your mathematics?

 

I don't think it is as dire as your calculations present.

You don't get to use your JP on the HI charge (aka no re-rolls).

 

Edit: If you want to double check on that, it is on the first page of the BA FAQ.

 

That's right, no re-rolls on the ds. I suppose I was having great luck with rolls however I still think this is viable. I tend to take risks however. It seemed as though a 2-3 inch scatter was the norm while assault range usually was at least 5 inches. If pulled off in a close game, this could be an incredible boon. And if our new main man Corbs is in your list, you do get a reroll if desired. Besides I have a feeling that many opponents will be too concerned with squad placement and the jump marines closing in on them to utilize deep strike defense tactics. Unless they are grey knights.

 

I will definitely try a squad on Tuesday and report back on my luck.

[Leksington]

I'm not sure what that means.

 

From what I read yesterday, I do not recall using your jump packs to move forcing you to give up your rerolls.

 

This is all getting fuzzy, it would seem to me the only disadvantage there is that you cannot use your jump packs to go more than 6" if you take advantage of the additional move allowed by jump packs during the assault phase.

 

Unless I've got this all screwed up, I don't see why you wouldn't get Hammer of Wrath or the ability to re-roll.

 

(I've just been hanging at the shop messing around with the half dozen whose books showed up this weekend. Mine isn't coming till Friday)

There are 2 parts to this:

-The BRB says that you can't use your JP in both the move and assault phase. You pick one or the other.

-The BA FAQ says that VV doing a HI count as having used their JPs in their movement phase.

 

Ergo VV can not use their JPs in their HI assault. This means no re-rolls and no Hammer of Wrath attacks during a HI assault.

[Atlantic]

So in order to get Hammer of Wrath and the re-rolls for all jumpers. You have to move 6 during the movement phase, period.

 

That is pretty lame, maybe?

[JMac]

So in order to get Hammer of Wrath and the re-rolls for all jumpers. You have to move 6 during the movement phase, period.

 

That is pretty lame, maybe?

 

Well, I think its a trade off when they have 24" potential charge range when the use them in the movement phase.

[Leksington]

So in order to get Hammer of Wrath and the re-rolls for all jumpers. You have to move 6 during the movement phase, period.

 

That is pretty lame, maybe?

Think of it as a slight nerf to JP threat range. But if you were in (slightly farther then) foot troop assault range, you have the opportunity to get free special attacks at I10. Seems like a balanced tradeoff.

 

I like it. It does add something of a learning curve though (moving your JP troops is going to require more planning). Someone who isn't used to these new JP rules is going to get worse value than they got in 5th. Someone who has mastered JP movement should get better value than they got in 5th.

[Atlantic]

Unfortunately, this is a situation where losing our I5 on the charge really holds us back.

 

I looked at the I10 strikes as making the I5 charge attacks sort of unnecessary.

 

Seeing as you can miss out on this fairly easily, I"m not so sure about it.

[JMac]

I4 still is pretty good in comparison to other people. No one else gets the Init bonus on FC, so its fair. Plus Init kinda got nerfed in 6th ed. Seems to me, across the whole 40k universe, that Init was reduced by the type of weapons alone. Not making it a big deal that we lose the Init bonus on the charge. Hell, how do you think Ork players feel right about now? Picking up that extra attack, at I10 mind you, seems like a better idea in my book! That, plus the whole DC thing makes it even for me ;)

[shortysl]

So in order to get Hammer of Wrath and the re-rolls for all jumpers. You have to move 6 during the movement phase, period.

 

That is pretty lame, maybe?

 

Well, I think its a trade off when they have 24" potential charge range when the use them in the movement phase.

 

So if you use Hammer of Wrath against models in cover, do you still take Dangerous Terrain rolls (as per Jump Pack Infantry ending a move in cover?). Bear in mind, I do not currently own 6th Ed rulebook.

[Leksington]

So if you use Hammer of Wrath against models in cover, do you still take Dangerous Terrain rolls (as per Jump Pack Infantry ending a move in cover?). Bear in mind, I do not currently own 6th Ed rulebook.

Yes you do. And your assault range drops to 3D6, drop the highest (but you can re-roll). I believe you can take armor saves and FNP against dangerous terrain wounds now.

[Cpt Adrak]

I have been taking 10 Vanguard with 6 storm shields in them, combat squadding them if need be, and if they deepstrike for HI I try to land a priest nearby then run the priest to a position that he will affect the Vanguard when they assault if needed. sometimes you want to 'pull your punches' and finish the assault in you opponents phase anyway.