The Axe Mortalis

[Grey Mage]

So in the BRB it states that a powerweapon with "any additional rules" is just considered to be a power weapon.

 

Under special rules we find "Master Crafted".

 

The Axe Mortalis is listed as being a powerweapon, but in addition is "master crafted". Since it has the addition, it is thus just a baseline powerweapon. IE base strength and AP 3 that strikes at the users I stat.

 

Same would be said for sanguinary guards Glaive Encarmine for that matter....

[Grimtooth]

Agree 100% GM. Completely RAW supported.

[Rik84]

yes in the Codex it says that the axe is Frost Blade, it is is +1s and AP3, but it can also split its attacks as a power fist.

[Grey Mage]

The Axe Mortalis is actually the weapon carried by Commander Dante of the C:BA.

[Morticon]

Full 9page thread Here

 

 

Summary Here

[Hfran Morkai]

It does have additional rules, which supports it being an AP3 weapon striking at initiative. Whether this was intended by GW or not I don't know and it falls outside the remit of this board.

 

However I also feel there should have been a clause in there about named weapons by themselves, these are unique items, forged by master craftsmen and one of a kind.

[JamesI]

That's as unclear as the Dante issue, because they do not have 'Unique rules'. They have USRs.

 

Needs FAQing to be certain imo.

Actually it really doesn't (neither does Dante in my opinion)

 

To quote

 

Types of Power Weapons

If a model's wargera says its has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to determine the type

 

Emphasis mine.

 

Master Crafted is on page 39, in the Special Rules section. Glaive have special rules. They are AP3.

 

To quote someone who said it better than I in the Chaos thread

So since all daemon weapons are classified by whatever they look like, can we make a bloodfeeder chainfist?

That's not how it works.

 

Rule Book 61:

"Power Weapons

If a models wargear says it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model..to see what it has"

 

Rule Book 61:

"Unique Power Weapons:

If a weapon has it's own unique close combat rules treat it as an AP3 weapon with the additional rules.."

 

A Daemon Weapon has the unique close combat rules of +D6 Attacks and the additional Mark bonus.

 

Thus it's a Unique Power Weapon and does not get any possible bonus for being a sword, mace, spear or axe. Or anything else for that matter.

 

TDA

 

You have two options that you HAVE to take one (and ONLY one of):

 

Option A:

Rule Book 61:

"Power Weapons

If a models wargear says it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model..to see what it has"

 

Option B:

Rule Book 61:

"Unique Power Weapons:

If a weapon has it's own unique close combat rules treat it as an AP3 weapon with the additional rules.."

 

If it's not option A (any rules other than 'power weapon'), then it MUST be B. It's not how we define 'unique', it's how you define 'no further special rules'.

There's a whole section of special rules, plus a host in each codex to boot. If it has ANY of those, it CANNOT be option A.

 

Quoting myself quoting others from an earlier post.

 

As I see it, Khârn had a unique weapon, as did Lemartes. They were FAQed to have axes and mauls.

 

If Dante's was supposed to be use power axe rules, it needs to be in the FAQ, same for Glaive Encarmines and Demon Weapons and tons of other cool weapons.

[Mezkh]

Special rules are uncommon, but not always unique. If a Power Weapon does not have a unique close combat rule, you don't have BYB permission to 'treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in it's entry'.

 

The problem with Venemox's argument is it presents a false dichotomy. You do not have to choose either A or B. It could be and probably is C - The BYB fails to provide clear and concise rules on how to treat power weapons with special, but not unique, rules. It actually doesn't provide any at all.

 

I suggest a close read of page 32. Not all special rules are unique rules, but all unique rules are special rules.

 

Many troops have unique abilities laid out in their codex. Most of the more commonly used (uncommon) special rules in 40k are listed in the BYB. It isn't an exhaustive list, but I posit that if it is listed, you can't say it's unique. Master-crafted especially. That's handed out like candy.

 

The other argument to make in favor of a Spade is a Spade and an Axe is an Axe, is that

 

-Lemartes got FAQed to a maul. Identical situation to Dante 'named' power weapon that was mastercrafted only. You really can't establish a better precedent than that.

[JamesI]

Mezkh, it says

 

Types of Power Weapons

If a model's wargear says its has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to determine the type

 

Master crafted is a special rule.

 

Oddly, I think the Lemartes/Khârn FAQ proves my point.

 

Lemartes had to be Faqed to have a Maul. Khârn had to be FAQed to have an axe.

 

Dante was unfaqed, but to have an Axe they would have to FAQ him.

 

I know the unique thing comes up a lot. But Unique is undefined really. If Astorath's axe ability is suddenly given out in a new codex, its no longer a Unique ability...

 

The first quote says special rules. I don't see anything that overrides the fact that if you have a special rule you never look at the chart.

[SevenExxes]

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of Dante having a power axe. Sure it's I1 but with Ap2, a bonus to strength and the 2+ armour he has the ability to take out Terminator squads with the weight of attacks he can dish out.

The same goes for Glaives.

But I will have to wait until Wednesday for the rule book and a chat to the blokes at the LGS I usually chat to about these things.

[JamesI]

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of Dante having a power axe. Sure it's I1 but with Ap2, a bonus to strength and the 2+ armour he has the ability to take out Terminator squads with the weight of attacks he can dish out.

The same goes for Glaives.

But I will have to wait until Wednesday for the rule book and a chat to the blokes at the LGS I usually chat to about these things.

Honestly, I see advantages for both and since I believe Dante could chose to use the pistol as the CCW and fight at initiative if the axe is a power axe, its not that bad for times you want the high initiative.

 

I really just want to know the answer, officially from GW. I read RAW as AP3, clearly Mezkh and others read it differently.

[Grimtooth]

Here is what I wonder to those saying that master-crafted is not a special rule for the Axe of Mortalis thus making it unique and AP3;

 

If you consider the Axe of Mortalis a non-unique weapon and only a power axe, how do you justify it remaining master-crafted?

[StrayCatt]

Here is what I wonder to those saying that master-crafted is not a special rule for the Axe of Mortalis thus making it unique and AP3;

 

If you consider the Axe of Mortalis a non-unique weapon and only a power axe, how do you justify it remaining master-crafted?

Because it still is listed as Master Crafted in its entry ...

 

I blame this question on the unimaginitive FAQs ... And the speed in which they were released ... They had a very limited pool of individuals to ask the questions 6th edition raised, and a relatively short time to answer it ... So some things like this were, albeit possibly intentionally, overlooked. There are also indications of possible typos (DA Ezekiel being LVL 1 but with 3 powers ...)

 

I am hoping they will revisit the FAQs over the next month and address some of these issues. The rules are, only 3 days old at this point.

[Grimtooth]

Here is what I wonder to those saying that master-crafted is not a special rule for the Axe of Mortalis thus making it unique and AP3;

 

If you consider the Axe of Mortalis a non-unique weapon and only a power axe, how do you justify it remaining master-crafted?

Because it still is listed as Master Crafted in its entry ...

 

I blame this question on the unimaginitive FAQs ... And the speed in which they were released ... They had a very limited pool of individuals to ask the questions 6th edition raised, and a relatively short time to answer it ... So some things like this were, albeit possibly intentionally, overlooked. There are also indications of possible typos (DA Ezekiel being LVL 1 but with 3 powers ...)

 

I am hoping they will revisit the FAQs over the next month and address some of these issues. The rules are, only 3 days old at this point.

 

And with your answer you shoot yourself in the foot.

 

By default power weapons are NOT master-crafted. If you acknowledge that the Axe of Mortalis is master-crafted, it cannot per the RAW default to a regular power axe and retain being master-crafted.

[StrayCatt]

Here is what I wonder to those saying that master-crafted is not a special rule for the Axe of Mortalis thus making it unique and AP3;

 

If you consider the Axe of Mortalis a non-unique weapon and only a power axe, how do you justify it remaining master-crafted?

Because it still is listed as Master Crafted in its entry ...

 

I blame this question on the unimaginitive FAQs ... And the speed in which they were released ... They had a very limited pool of individuals to ask the questions 6th edition raised, and a relatively short time to answer it ... So some things like this were, albeit possibly intentionally, overlooked. There are also indications of possible typos (DA Ezekiel being LVL 1 but with 3 powers ...)

 

I am hoping they will revisit the FAQs over the next month and address some of these issues. The rules are, only 3 days old at this point.

 

And with your answer you shoot yourself in the foot.

 

By default power weapons are NOT master-crafted. If you acknowledge that the Axe of Mortalis is master-crafted, it cannot per the RAW default to a regular power axe and retain being master-crafted.

 

Oops ... That is what I get for selective reading ... You are correct ... The implication is it is a unique weapon ... So unless FAQd otherwise, it should be an AP3 weapon striking at model's Init ...

 

I think the question to be FAQd is what constitutes a Unique Weapon ... The rule appears to imply if it has any further special rules ... But the FAQs on Khârn and Lemartes seem to fly in the face of that ...

 

Excuse me while I practice hopping on one foot ... :tu:

[JamesI]

I think the question to be FAQd is what constitutes a Unique Weapon ... The rule appears to imply if it has any further special rules ... But the FAQs on Khârn and Lemartes seem to fly in the face of that ...

While I agree a better FAQ is needed, Lemartes, Khârn and Typhus do not necessarily set precedent. The precedent could be that there are no unique weapons (Gorechild and Typhus' weapons seemed pretty unique to me), always go by what it is modeled as, but then the rule is useless.

 

The precedent could be that GW will use the FAQ to adjust those they want to adjust (Khârn, Lemartes, Typhus, the Frost Blade/Frost Axe speration) but not FAQ those they want to leave alone (Dante, Astorath, Demon Weapons, Relic blades, Glaive Encarmines)

[StrayCatt]

I think the question to be FAQd is what constitutes a Unique Weapon ... The rule appears to imply if it has any further special rules ... But the FAQs on Khârn and Lemartes seem to fly in the face of that ...

While I agree a better FAQ is needed, Lemartes, Khârn and Typhus do not necessarily set precedent. The precedent could be that there are no unique weapons (Gorechild and Typhus' weapons seemed pretty unique to me), always go by what it is modeled as, but then the rule is useless.

 

The precedent could be that GW will use the FAQ to adjust those they want to adjust (Khârn, Lemartes, Typhus, the Frost Blade/Frost Axe speration) but not FAQ those they want to leave alone (Dante, Astorath, Demon Weapons, Relic blades, Glaive Encarmines)

 

While I agree with your opinion, this is the Internets, and 40k has proven to have players who do not view your thought process as logical without an explicit FAQ agreeing with the reasoning you have made.

[Grey Mage]

Note: if it was simply "Dante is equipped with a master crafted power weapon" Id say he had a master crafted power axe. Its because it has a name, and its own wargear entry for it, that this comes up. Its also why a glaive encarmine seems to undoubtedly count as unique close combat weapons.

[Radiation]

Both arguments are logically sound. It seems that there is no easy answer for this at the moment other then to use player discretion. Although I have argued for AP 3 Melee, I would prefer that there be more variety to the weapons in question. Having a mix of stats for SG glaives seems way more fun then all AP 3, especially when modeled differently. I would have no problem playing it either way so I would simply ask what my opponent prefered or leave it to chance with a roll of the dice. I think the axe stats are a substantial buff and change the way Dante works and I have no problem with that. Since SG can already take PFs I don't see much issue with axe stats although it still can be considered a buff, do to increased variety of choice. At this point my preference is for the use of master-crafted Power axe stats. If it becomes a problem roll the dice, or concede the issue to your opponent and beat them anyways.

[Leksington]

Full 9page thread Here

 

 

Summary Here

I feel like you keep leaving out the important question of counts-as dante.

 

If I can legally model a counts-as Dante with a Sword, it doesn't matter which way the ruling goes.

 

Why does my counts-as dante have to be modeled with an axe in his hand? (this goes for The Sanguinor as well)

[Morollan]

Full 9page thread Here

 

 

Summary Here

I feel like you keep leaving out the important question of counts-as dante.

 

If I can legally model a counts-as Dante with a Sword, it doesn't matter which way the ruling goes.

 

Why does my counts-as dante have to be modeled with an axe in his hand? (this goes for The Sanguinor as well)

 

Because if you point to a sword and tell me it's the Axe Mortalis, how is that WYSIWYG?

[Leksington]

Full 9page thread Here

 

 

Summary Here

I feel like you keep leaving out the important question of counts-as dante.

 

If I can legally model a counts-as Dante with a Sword, it doesn't matter which way the ruling goes.

 

Why does my counts-as dante have to be modeled with an axe in his hand? (this goes for The Sanguinor as well)

 

Because if you point to a sword and tell me it's the Axe Mortalis, how is that WYSIWYG?

Because "Axe Mortalis" is a name not a rule. A counts-as model carries the exact same rules: Weapon XXXXXXX is mastercrafted and a power weapon.

 

So what you see IS what you get; a master crafted power weapon.

[Jolemai]

I use the official Dante miniature. If I were to do battle against you and we both fielded our Dantes, do you feel that it is correct for me to use the axe rules and for you to use the sword rules?

[Morollan]

Full 9page thread Here

 

 

Summary Here

I feel like you keep leaving out the important question of counts-as dante.

 

If I can legally model a counts-as Dante with a Sword, it doesn't matter which way the ruling goes.

 

Why does my counts-as dante have to be modeled with an axe in his hand? (this goes for The Sanguinor as well)

 

Because if you point to a sword and tell me it's the Axe Mortalis, how is that WYSIWYG?

Because "Axe Mortalis" is a name not a rule. A counts-as model carries the exact same rules: Weapon XXXXXXX is mastercrafted and a power weapon.

 

So what you see IS what you get; a master crafted power weapon.

 

So you choose to ignore that fact that it's an axe and model it as a sword because you prefer the rules for power swords now that GW has distinguished them (again) from power axes. How is that not modelling for advantage?

[JamesI]

Full 9page thread Here

 

 

Summary Here

I feel like you keep leaving out the important question of counts-as dante.

 

If I can legally model a counts-as Dante with a Sword, it doesn't matter which way the ruling goes.

 

Why does my counts-as dante have to be modeled with an axe in his hand? (this goes for The Sanguinor as well)

 

Because if you point to a sword and tell me it's the Axe Mortalis, how is that WYSIWYG?

Because "Axe Mortalis" is a name not a rule. A counts-as model carries the exact same rules: Weapon XXXXXXX is mastercrafted and a power weapon.

 

So what you see IS what you get; a master crafted power weapon.

 

So you choose to ignore that fact that it's an axe and model it as a sword because you prefer the rules for power swords now that GW has distinguished them (again) from power axes. How is that not modelling for advantage?

 

Until GW tells us it is a power axe, it doesn't get eh power axe rules so how does it matter how its modeled. I modeld my Dante as a sword years ago, how is that modeling for advantage (if GW does FAQ it to say he has an Axe, I'll swap the model to an axe to avoid arguments).

 

I will say again, we don't look at the chart for axe, sword, maul, spear if the weapon has any special rules.

 

Page 39, Master Crafted is a special rule.

 

So until a FAQ says it is a master crafted power axe (like they did with Lemartes) its not an axe.