The Axe Mortalis

[daboarder]

Unique is entirely subjective. In what context does the weapons rule's need to be Unique?

 

Dante's weapon is the ONLY 1-handed master crafted power weapon in the BA codex, within the context of that codex that makes it more unique than a Relic blade which are available multiple times throughout codex SM. What about Daemon weapons? hardly unique as they are clearly generic in that they have no names.

 

Unique is not in any way subjective. It is a binary state and something either is unique or it is not. Which is why people saying "very unique" annoys me, but I'm funny like that. :yes:

 

No its all about context.

whithin what limits do we determine "unique" is it the armylist? the codex? the game? the quantum states of the atoms that make up the ink the rule is printed with?

 

See Unique is an entirely contextual word whose application is entirely determined by the bounds that are place on it.

 

Okay granted, if you want to take it to a molecular level then there is an element of context involved but assuming we are using normal English (and common sense) then I think we can agree that "it's own unique close combat rules" can be limited to the context of the game and taken to mean that no other weapon shares the same rules (or combination of rules).

 

Not to pick a fight but I disagree about the context your suggesting based upon Relic blades, what AP is a relic blade? it most certainly does NOT have unique rules their are plenty of weapons particularly in the BA codex that all strike at set strength values, therefore the relic blade falls into the same rules conundrum as the Axe Mortallis. It is far more likely that the context for "unique" is "anything different to here".

 

Striking at fixed S6 with modifiers not working is pretty unique. I can't really think of any. The only weapon I can think of from BA that does something similar is Astorath's weapon, and that has a different set of rules anyway.

 

Astorath, Seth, Corbulo....set value S is not that unique. How many 1-handed master crafted power weapons are there? Only 1 in the BA codex and probably not that many more outside.

[Grey Mage]

Indeed, and the fact that you can easily have a dozen relicblades in a C:SM force doesnt make them any less a powerweapon with its own extra rules... unique, special, or what have you.

[DarkGuard]

Also, if a relic blade did take on the rules for whatever it looked like, how would that work. So you've got a relic blade as a sword, which says it's S:user, but relic blade says S6. Then a power axe, S:user +1, but a relic blade says S6. You get the idea. It changes some of the secondary stuff, but then why take a relic blade over a power axe if you're going to be forced to use it with that profile?

[Tamwulf]

I'm a bit late coming to this argument.

I guess I can see both sides of the argument. Seems like GW is all full of contradictions on this one, and it would have been nice if they broke down each Character's weapons, but they didn't, and here we are.

 

It just really bugs me that The Axe Mortalis, looks like an axe, is modeled like an axe, but because of one little line "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has..." (pg. 61). Master Crafted is a Special Rule, so the Axe says "Master Crafted Power Weapon". So it's a power weapon with a further special rule. Yet clearly, it is an axe, has the name The Axe Mortalis, is described as an axe, and the official model has an axe. So why isn't it a master crafted power axe again? If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a dog?

 

Yet if I look again at pg. 61 "Unusual Power Weapons": "If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry". Master crafted isn't unique. It's special, and it's a special rule listed on pgs. 32-43. Is this where the Executioner's Axe falls? Because it has a unique rule- strikes at strength 6? This looks a little more cut and dry to me.

 

Do all power weapons with any other rule attached to them become Unusual Power Weapons? That's what it's looking like to me and the argument being made here. Of course, FAQ's take precedence.

 

Not sure where the confusion about Glave Encarmines comes from- two handed, master crafted Power Weapon- so AP 3, no extra attack, reroll misses. What are people saying it is now? Is it because of the axe bit from the Sanguinary Guard box set? Doesn't matter. It's a Glave Encarmine with special rules, so it's an Unusual Power Weapon with extra rules.

[JamesI]

Not sure where the confusion about Glave Encarmines comes from- two handed, master crafted Power Weapon- so AP 3, no extra attack, reroll misses. What are people saying it is now? Is it because of the axe bit from the Sanguinary Guard box set? Doesn't matter. It's a Glave Encarmine with special rules, so it's an Unusual Power Weapon with extra rules.

The Axe Mortalis and Glaives share a Special rule (master crafted) why is one clearly an axe and the other clearly not? To me its the same thing.

[Tamwulf]

Not sure where the confusion about Glave Encarmines comes from- two handed, master crafted Power Weapon- so AP 3, no extra attack, reroll misses. What are people saying it is now? Is it because of the axe bit from the Sanguinary Guard box set? Doesn't matter. It's a Glave Encarmine with special rules, so it's an Unusual Power Weapon with extra rules.

The Axe Mortalis and Glaives share a Special rule (master crafted) why is one clearly an axe and the other clearly not? To me its the same thing.

 

Just to be a little flippant here...

 

One looks like an axe, the other looks like a sword? In my mind, they are two very different things. One is described as an axe, has the name axe in its title, and it's clearly an axe on the model. The Glaives look like swords, except for one bit. In another thread, I'm going to treat that one bit as a power axe with master crafted, +1S, AP2, two handed, and unwieldy. It's a bit of a nerf- or buff I guess, but it's conservative and doesn't provoke any arguments from my opponent. If my opponent wants to play it as a power weapon, that's his call. It'll be a bit confusing if he has a bunch of models with axes, and some are actually power axes, and some are just power weapons with extra rules.

 

Bah! Why can't GW just say "if it's a Power Weapon with extra rules, then it's an Unusual Power Weapon at AP 3 with extra rules,". :P

[Grey Mage]

Not sure where the confusion about Glave Encarmines comes from- two handed, master crafted Power Weapon- so AP 3, no extra attack, reroll misses. What are people saying it is now? Is it because of the axe bit from the Sanguinary Guard box set? Doesn't matter. It's a Glave Encarmine with special rules, so it's an Unusual Power Weapon with extra rules.

The Axe Mortalis and Glaives share a Special rule (master crafted) why is one clearly an axe and the other clearly not? To me its the same thing.

 

Just to be a little flippant here...

 

One looks like an axe, the other looks like a sword? In my mind, they are two very different things. One is described as an axe, has the name axe in its title, and it's clearly an axe on the model. The Glaives look like swords, except for one bit. In another thread, I'm going to treat that one bit as a power axe with master crafted, +1S, AP2, two handed, and unwieldy. It's a bit of a nerf- or buff I guess, but it's conservative and doesn't provoke any arguments from my opponent. If my opponent wants to play it as a power weapon, that's his call. It'll be a bit confusing if he has a bunch of models with axes, and some are actually power axes, and some are just power weapons with extra rules.

 

Bah! Why can't GW just say "if it's a Power Weapon with extra rules, then it's an Unusual Power Weapon at AP 3 with extra rules,". ^_^

Some glaives look like swords, or naginata. Wich would make them powerspear/lances.

 

As for the confusion thats already a thing- C:SM can make anything of any appearance a relicblade.... axe, sword, whatever.

[Morticon]

DAboarder just sent this to me:

 

From the Blood Angels Codex, page 23, last sentence of the first paragraph under the "Equipment" heading:

 

"When an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner, and where an item is not unique it is detailed in the wargear section.

 

A good example is the Axe Mortalis, a potent weapon wielded by Commander Dante. As such, its rules are detailed in Dante's entry."

[JamesI]

Bah! Why can't GW just say "if it's a Power Weapon with extra rules, then it's an Unusual Power Weapon at AP 3 with extra rules,". ;)

They did. Rulebook says if a power weapon has no special rules, then look at the chart for type.

 

Plus now we have a quote from the BA codex declaring the axe unique anyway.

[Leksington]

DAboarder just sent this to me:

 

From the Blood Angels Codex, page 23, last sentence of the first paragraph under the "Equipment" heading:

 

"When an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner, and where an item is not unique it is detailed in the wargear section.

 

A good example is the Axe Mortalis, a potent weapon wielded by Commander Dante. As such, its rules are detailed in Dante's entry."

Technically, the BRB isn't concerned if the weapon is "unique". Only if it's special rules are "unique".

 

For now I feel most comfortable with your interpretation Mort. However I still want a GW ruling.

[Grimtooth]

DAboarder just sent this to me:

 

From the Blood Angels Codex, page 23, last sentence of the first paragraph under the "Equipment" heading:

 

"When an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner, and where an item is not unique it is detailed in the wargear section.

 

A good example is the Axe Mortalis, a potent weapon wielded by Commander Dante. As such, its rules are detailed in Dante's entry."

 

This just fortifies my view on this issue.

[Aleax]

Hi.

 

Don't want to be the ruleslawyer, but then under the rules, any master-crafted power axe (emphasis any) bought for one of your character would get the rules of a master crafted power sword. ^_^ Thus I believe that "master-crafted" does not make a power weapon "unique".

 

But then I am not a lawyer in the real life. ;) This sounds rude, but if you want it to be a power sword, this has to be FAQ'ed. Then again, I am not against that the axe mortalis counts as a power sword. :P Just that I don't want a surprise if I play a Blood Angel.

 

Cheers.

[Hellios]

How are we defining unique? Not typical or as one of a kind?

 

If we use the not typical definition then master crafed weapons could be unique.

 

If we use the definition that a unique "XXX" is one of a kind then only weapons that do not share their rules with another weapon elsewhere in the game would be unique.

[Grey Mage]

Hi.

 

Don't want to be the ruleslawyer, but then under the rules, any master-crafted power axe (emphasis any) bought for one of your character would get the rules of a master crafted power sword. ^_^ Thus I believe that "master-crafted" does not make a power weapon "unique".

 

But then I am not a lawyer in the real life. ;) This sounds rude, but if you want it to be a power sword, this has to be FAQ'ed. Then again, I am not against that the axe mortalis counts as a power sword. :P Just that I don't want a surprise if I play a Blood Angel.

 

Cheers.

The difference is that those would be purchased as master crafted power weapons. This isnt that- this is The Axe Mortalis. It is not a 'Powerweapon' like that wich a sergeant can buy. Its a unique item that has its own rules. The fact that those rules happen to be widespreed doesnt change that.

[Legatus]

FWIW, I'd say according to the written rule on page 61 the Axe Mortalis, as a "Master Crafted Power Weapon" would currently work as an AP 3 melee weapon. It has special rules attached to it, however mundane they may be.

 

That being said, I also think it is somewhat obvious that GW intends for the "axe" weapons of special characters to count as actual Power Axes, even if they did not get around clarifying that for Commander Dante. So, I would probably play it as a power axe, but if you go strictly by RAW, it is an AP 3 melee weapon for the time being.

 

 

How are we defining unique?

I would define 'unique' as "having its own weapon description, and not merely refering to one of the common weapon profiles from the BRB or the weapon section of the Codex". So even if some special characters happen to have a weapon with the same rules, as long as said weapons' rules are described in each character's entry and are not just saying "it's the same weapon the other guys got", then it is unique. Whenever a model has a weapon from the list in the rulebook or the weapon section of that specific Codex, it is not a unique but a standard weapon.

[Grey Mage]

I would define 'unique' as "having its own weapon description, and not merely refering to one of the common weapon profiles from the BRB or the weapon section of the Codex". So even if some special characters happen to have a weapon with the same rules, as long as said weapons' rules are described in each character's entry and are not just saying "it's the same weapon the other guys got", then it is unique. Whenever a model has a weapon from the list in the rulebook or the weapon section of that specific Codex, it is not a unique but a standard weapon.

 

So then Dantes would be unique....

[Legatus]

So then Dantes would be unique...

Yes, I'd say so. So currently the rules work out so that he has an AP 3 melee weapon, and not a power axe. But then so would the rules for Gorechild have done, until GW FaQ'd them.

[Aleax]

Hi.

 

FWIW, I'd say according to the written rule on page 61 the Axe Mortalis, as a "Master Crafted Power Weapon" would currently work as an AP 3 melee weapon. It has special rules attached to it, however mundane they may be.

 

That being said, I also think it is somewhat obvious that GW intends for the "axe" weapons of special characters to count as actual Power Axes, even if they did not get around clarifying that for Commander Dante. So, I would probably play it as a power axe, but if you go strictly by RAW, it is an AP 3 melee weapon for the time being.

So then are all bought master-crafted power axes by this logic: they have a special rule, so they are treated as power swords. Yup, this is stupid.

 

Ya know, I am all for Dante getting a power sword. This is in-character with the guy after all, or so I believe. But what do you I do when I play a BA guy who says, looking at my mostly all-DW terminators army: "NO, this is an axe." "Master-crafted does not make it unique". I have no argument to tell him the contrary. But...I suppose I will be agreeing and let the BA player uses its axe as an axe. Or use the "most important rule". On a 4+, he wins.

 

But no...to make things even clearer here's what I will finally do: I will definetly rule that the axe mortalis is a power sword using the logic presented in this thread. Always. And if a BA disagrees, I will add that contrary to the axe of Khârn, this is not FAQ'ed, where they would have FAQ'ed it just like for Khârn if he was right. :P There is like a consensus anyway here, isn't it? OK, the axe mortalis counts as a power sword. The end.

 

Cheers.

[Grey Mage]

The difference is that not all master crafted power weapons have their own entry.

[Aleax]

I am fine with that.

 

Cheers.

[Legatus]

So then are all bought master-crafted power axes by this logic:

The mere fact that they are "bought" from a list entry would pretty much be my definition of "not a unique weapon".

 

 

But what do you I do when I play a BA guy who says, looking at my mostly all-DW terminators army: "NO, this is an axe." "Master-crafted does not make it unique". I have no argument to tell him the contrary.

It would probably be best to agree before the game starts whether you go with RAW or RAI for Dante's axe. It is not an ideal situation right now. The change for power weapon types in 6th Edition has caused a few interpretation issues, and GW should properly adress this. But since this is a thread to debate that particular issue, all I can say is that according to RAW Dante currenlty has an AP 3 melee weapon, even though I myself am convinced that GW would intend him to have a power axe.

 

 

But no...to make things even clearer here's what I will finally do:

I am not sure whether you are being sincere or whether you are being upset by this issue. You shouldn't be. It is a problem with GW's framing of the new power wepaon rules and how they relate to the special close combat weapons of older Codices. It is not really something we as players can make a definite ruling on. The best we can do is clarify and understand the current situation.

 

- GW has established a system to identify "unique" power weapons

 

- Dante's "unique" weapon is a bit iffy, because it is pretty mundane, but it still qualifies

 

- GW has apparently gone "against" their own system by FaQing that some "unique" weapons are in fact supposed to be power axes or mauls

 

What I make of this is that by strict reading, Dante has a unique power weapon and thus an AP 3 weapon, but that GW probably means for him to have a power axe, and will likely FaQ that in the future.

 

The best solution I can offer for players using or playing against Dante would be to agree before the game as what his weapon will count during the game. This is not a satisfying "definitive" answer, and I don't think we can find one. I personally would play it RAI (power axe), but if the opponent favoured RAW (AP 3 melee), I would go with that too.

[Aleax]

I am not upset. :P

 

NB: new BA codex will probably add to Dante the possibility to use his axe either as an axe, or as a sword. Until then or FAQ'ed, this is a sword.

 

Cheers.

[Legatus]

I think making power axes Ini1 was a mistake, specifically because how it affects the known models that use axes, such as Dante or Khârn. It would have made sense to make swords AP2 (they can be thrust) and axes Ap3 but with the strength bonus (more powerful swings). That way you would still have to make a choice.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

As far as i am concerned Dante's axe is a power weapon, not a power axe. the why has already been said, but basically because it is NOT a standard weapon, and has its own rules as listed in the BA codex. while the special rules arent flashy like Logan's special weapon, they are still not a standard item purchased by any joe schmoe with access to the armoury.

 

(and if i can the world, or atleast GW, i would have given power axes and their like a +1S/-1 I rule at most, to make the player actually think of the purchase. to make axes 1I means they arent worth it (in my opinion). I would rather go with the power fist if i have to strike last, and insta-kill the punk i am fighting)

 

WLK