Deathwing tougher in 6th Edition

[Cairbre]

I haven't read the whole rulebook yet but I have one question. Do you think my standard DW squad (2TH/SS,PW sgt., SB/PF,SB/PF with cyclone) is still viable in 6th edition? Thanks.

[Ajax Tlamunus]

Or maybe a small corporation with a staff of only a dozen authors tasked with developing four to six sperate products lines at one time might require some time to develop these things?

 

So much easier to blame a conspiracy, instead of understanding reality.

 

They mostly have separate authors for Lotr, 40k, and fantasy. So it isn't a lack of developers that leads to slow releases. It is mostly down to GW not wanting to do multiple large releases at the same time. Although I personally think they could get it down to bi-monthly if they tried.

 

The last ten codices for 40K were all written by Matthew Ward (x4), Robin Cruddace (x3), Phil Kelly (x2), and Alessio Cavatore (x1). I don't have an exact count, but all of the most recent army books for WHFB were written by Matthew Ward, Robin Crudace, Phill Kelly, and Jeremy Vestock...

 

Just about every member of the design team is credited as a contributing writter for every major edition revision, and often three or four additional authors will receive partial credit on codices/army books.

[shabbadoo]

The Chaplain's crozius arcanum is still going to be striking at S6 and the Chaplain still has a high WS, I and A traits, he'll do just fine against power armored foes

 

could be why asmodai had a powersword too.....

Um....Asmodai was sculpted nearly 20 years ago during the 2E era (though the mini really is Sapphon, but they changed who the mini would be for as Sapphon and not Asmodai also had a power sword back then). As great as Jes Goodwin is, he is not the new Nostrodamus, predicting that 15+ years later the rules writers would come up with something called "Armour Penetration", and some years after that then have the crozius count as a power maul, be AP 4, and not be able to crack open the power armor of the Fallen.

 

As to people pissing on power mauls, last Sunday I watched Chaos Terminators armed with more than few power mauls beat the living snot out of Utlramarines (well, they beat the snot out of each other really). That Strength 6 just piles on the wounds, which means more failed armor saves. The game was very bloody. :D Power mauls are going to grow on people. They are very cheap vehicle crackers, and are optimally suited for dealing with certain units(Nobz, many 'Nids, most Necrons, Ogryns, etc.).

 

With Chaos cultists entering the fray in C: CSM 6E, perhaps we'll see some "Cult of the Voice" themed armies out there for the Interrogator-Chaplains to beat on. :)

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'm thinking my Chaplains won't see the light of day until next Ed, unfortunately for me most of my games are against MEQ and power swords give a 50% chance of an unsaved wound per hit vs. 27.7% for the new maul. Not to mention 50% vs. 13.8% for TEQ. Back to Belial as my only IC again :blush:

 

Tuppence of thought.

 

s

[Cpt_Reaper]

I have no issue with the new power weapons. It suits me fine. I can now choose a HQ depending on who in my group I am facing.

 

- Chaplain leads purges against the Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Tau and Orks.

- Belial leads "training missions" against the Ultrasmurfs, Wolves and Grey Knights

- Sammael can also lead "training missions", or team up with Belial for some DeathRaven goodness.

- Librarian for random buffs and MC/IC hunting. A shout of "Hey you!" and either said character fights and may be insta-gibbed or doesn't and stands around being lame.

 

Although my conversion idea for my Company Master just got scrapped...so much for a pair of swords that count as lightning claws (fluff justified)

[Ajax Tlamunus]

I predict, and you can quote me on this, that Chaplains will come back into vogue as soon as all of the Tyranid players discover just how nasty Monstrous Creatures have become under this new rule set. When the Hive Mind starts rolling out the lists with fifteen psykers and a dozen T6+ MC's... Well, Chaplains in general and especial special characters like Asmodai and Cassius are going to be busy.

 

S6, AP4, and oodles of re-rollable Attacks? The perfect Tyranid cracker.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Don't get me wrong, I like the variety that GW is trying to inject, it just means some weapon options are not going to be as useful in most of my games as other weapons. I'd have prefered it to cost more instead of being nerfed vs. MEQ/TEQ, oh well the sky hasn't fallen yet.

 

s

[Ajax Tlamunus]

But keep in mind, against T4 Marines, the crozius arcanum with its S6 AP4 will cause more potential wounds than a S4 AP3 power sword. Your opponent will have a chance to save, but it's hardly worthless. The Chaplain, Librarian, and Captain now all serve different roles on the battlefield... and you only get two HQ slots. "Is feature, not bug!" :P

[Interrogator Stobz]

I kept it in mind :P 50% vs 27.7%, PS are better by far(per hit vs. MEQ).

I plan all my lists with an allcomers view, that most opponents are MEQ is a very real concideration for a 100+ point investment.

The squads rerolls will continue to make the Chappie valuable but my Deathwing Hammernators don't really need that buff which leads me to concider my PA Chappie and his viability.

Maybe (and hopefully) the new DA dex with supply us with a must have PA unit to attach a Chappy to that makes loads of sense.

 

Optimistic for the next few months at least....

 

s

[Bryan Blaire]

One thing I think changes with these new rules is that the old advice I used to see said "Don't put the hammer/storm shield on your Cyclones, because you don't want to take the saves on him and risk losing him." I think with the new rules that changes, because you really want him to be able to take that 3++ save no matter where he's positioned in your squad, especially with most cover going down to 5++ (IMO, thank the Emperor for that, I always thought that was way too high for normal, unhardened terrain). Thoughts?

[LidlessPraetor]

Not really on the Original Topic, but it's in line with what's being discussed now: What would you recommend for an assault marine sergeant? I'm building my second assault squad and he currently has an ax modeled on him, but my first assault squad has a power fist... I don't really see using an ax anymore because both squads would ultimately fill the exact same combat role.

 

What's everyone's take on the spears? I'm thinking model wise, it would look cool and getting the charge should be doable as an assault marine.

[Ronin_eX]

I'm thinking my Chaplains won't see the light of day until next Ed, unfortunately for me most of my games are against MEQ and power swords give a 50% chance of an unsaved wound per hit vs. 27.7% for the new maul. Not to mention 50% vs. 13.8% for TEQ. Back to Belial as my only IC again :D

 

Tuppence of thought.

 

s

 

Hmm, that actually depends. Looking over things against most MeQ characters a Chaplain may be more effective if they are T4/5 and have a 3+/4++ save and are outright better against 2+/4++ characters. Just to run the numbers (don't have my codex on hand so I'm a tad rusty on Chaplain stats right now... so let's assume 3 base attacks, 1 for two CCWs and 1 for a charge):

 

Chaplain w/ a Crozius Arcanum (S6AP4) and 5 attacks vs:

 

WS4 T4 Sv 3+ (Marine) - 3 hits; 2.5 wounds --> 0.75 unsaved wounds

WS6 T4 Sv 3+/4++ (Captain-level) - 2.5 hits; 2.08 wounds --> 0.635 unsaved wounds

WS6 T5 Sv 3+/4++ (Biker Captain) - 2.5 hits; 1.5 wounds --> 0.495 unsaved wounds

WS4 T4 Sv 2+/5++ (Terminator) - 3.0 hits; 2.08 wounds --> 0.417 unsaved wounds

WS6 T4 Sv 2+/4++ (Terminator Captain) - 2.5 hits; 2.08 wounds --> 0.417 unsaved wounds

WS6 T5 Sv 2+/4++ (Artificer-Biker Captain) - 2.5 hits; 1.5 wounds --> 0.25 unsaved wounds

 

Hypothetical Character w/ a Power Sword (S4AP3) and 5 attacks vs:

 

WS4 T4 Sv 3+ (Marine) - 3 hits; 1.5 wounds --> 1.5 unsaved wounds

WS6 T4 Sv 3+/4++ (Captain-level) - 2.5 hits; 1.25 wounds --> 0.635 unsaved wounds

WS6 T5 Sv 3+/4++ (Biker Captain) - 2.5 hits; 0.75 wounds --> 0.375 unsaved wounds

WS4 T4 Sv 2+/5++ (Terminator) - 3 hits; 1.25 wounds --> 0.208 unsaved wounds

WS6 T4 Sv 2+/4++ (Terminator/Artificer Captain) - 2.5 hits; 1.25 wounds --> 0.208 unsaved wounds

WS6 T5 Sv 2+/4++ (Artificer-Biker Captain) - 2.5 hits; 0.75 wounds --> 0.125 unsaved wounds

 

So as far as on-initiative power weapons go the only time the power-sword is superior to the maul is against T4 3+ save targets with no invulnerable (or a small invulnerable save like 6+ or 5+). Those extra wounds achieved mean more failure points thrown out which means that even when it doesn't beat the save it may still just beat through it with numbers. Against other characters the power sword doesn't perform as well and as soon as you get 2+ saves in the equation (which will be very common on MeQ commanders in 6th) its one and only positive bonus over the maul disappears completely and the maul's +2S keep it strong.

 

So a power sword is a great if you want to chew through infantry on the cheap (well specifically 3+ save infantry) but once the saves rise to 4+ it starts to lose its edge (har har). Actually, after this I am starting to question if the power sword may actually be the weak link in the bunch... Hmm. Well, either way, if you want your character duelling then I'd avoid the power sword as a rule of thumb unless the character has a 3+ save and less than a 4+ invulnerable. Should still be handy for hunting your average fist-seargeant I suppose. But the maul seems like it is more versatile. It cares less about the climb to 2+ saves than the sword because it still wounds well and if a save is less than 4+ then it is simply outright superior. It should also be better for MC hunting if you want to attempt to win the day before the MC strikes (mostly the more lumbering 'Nids). And it is cheaper and faster than a fist against T3 armies and will still do the job.

 

I wouldn't count the Chaplain out just yet after seeing these numbers against likely MeQ targets.

 

Not really on the Original Topic, but it's in line with what's being discussed now: What would you recommend for an assault marine sergeant? I'm building my second assault squad and he currently has an ax modeled on him, but my first assault squad has a power fist... I don't really see using an ax anymore because both squads would ultimately fill the exact same combat role.

 

What's everyone's take on the spears? I'm thinking model wise, it would look cool and getting the charge should be doable as an assault marine.

 

Hmm, tough question. The spear synergizes well with the usual assault marine approach and will give him 4 S5AP3 attacks on the charge along with his Hammer of Wrath attack (need to double check that it is only a S4 attack, can't remember if the strength bonus stacks on it). So against MeQ units it will be a devastating way to take them out (and for added fun you can hit fist-squads and challenge to take him out before he can blink). If you intend to play against things with less than a 3+ save though the Maul is an awesome option that will crush a lot of targets easily on initiative.

 

With such a mobile squad you will likely want to avoid a power sword since if you aren't charging you are probably flubbed anyways. With each assault marine getting 4 attacks on the charge their 45 (including the sergeant) initial attacks should break whatever you can send them at (target selection is important here, getting tarpitted will suck if you are wrong with a spear) the power sword seems like a good general weapon for units that may get charged and can't rely on picking their targets.

 

The axe may still be viable as an alternative to the fist because it is getting more attacks in general. It seems like a good general purpose weapon and from my rudimentary calculations (didn't feel like doing the whole gamut) it performs almost exactly the same as the fist on the charge but slightly outperforms it in subsequent rounds. Since it is 15 points as opposed to 25 it may be great for hunting terminator units without characters (which is where you will want the fist to insta-kill leaders). Against 2+ save 1W models it is a great budget fist that outperforms it on subsequent turns (though again this was just testing it against T4 targets with equal WS). But you are correct in that it is basically a cheaper fist that gives up insta-kill for an extra attack. Good against 1W units with good saves but it wont be replacing the fist for character smashing.

 

I will tentatively suggest that the spear at least sounds like the most interesting and different of the bunch with the maul close behind (because maces rock).

[Interrogator Stobz]

Ronin_Ex Sir,

Please check your findings, I don't think they are correct.

Check my math per hit earlier (the only thing I didn't do was factor in the TEQ 5++ which lowers the PS vs. TEQ) I use per hit because that negates the variable nature of the skills table and exposes the weapons differences.

 

Respectfully

 

stobz

 

EDIT: My mistake, I was living in the past at work and forgot PS are not AP2 anymore, so vs. TEQ PM are better at 13.8% and PS are at 8%.

[Pyro X]

well the best part about the Chaplain isn't his own attacks, but the attacks that are re-rolled for this group. not only that but think of this:

Chaplains would make a great character to take up challenges with for a bike army or green wing.

WS 5, Int 5 3+/4++ or 2+/4++

 

just my 2 cents.

[Ronin_eX]

Ronin_Ex Sir,

Please check your findings, I don't think they are correct.

Check my math per hit earlier (the only thing I didn't do was factor in the TEQ 5++ which lowers the PS vs. TEQ) I use per hit because that negates the variable nature of the skills table and exposes the weapons differences.

 

Respectfully

 

stobz

 

you were simply calculating a per-hit unsaved wound chance, and while my numbers were probably a bit fast and dirty (at work right now) they differ because I was figuring hits in to it. My numbers line up with yours quite well the power sword results in 50% of its hits being unsaved wounds. Under my calculations it hits 3 times for an average of 1.5 wounds if you start with 5 attacks on a WS5 model versus a WS4 model. Meanwhile my calculations for a maul (oop looked like I used .3 for the save rather than 0.33... should be doing 0.825 unsaved wounds to match up with yours... crap I may have done that elsewhere, that's what I get for rushing) doing ~25% per hit (it is off because I was using 0.3 instead of 0.33 for save calculations... sloppy).

 

If you use your percentages to work out the averages after taking hits in to account your numbers will be more or less the same. 50% of attacks will hit (against MeQ that means 3 hit out of 5) which leaves the PS doing 1.5 wounds average and the PM doing 0.825 average.

 

Either way my numbers were quick and dirty but they were close enough for jazz and show a pretty clear trend. Against basic MeQ units with no invuln the power sword is superior. If the invuln save climbs to 4+ or the armour save becomes 2+ then it starts losing ground. Don't know why I didn't run biker numbers though.

[Ronin_eX]

Home now, so I can explain myself a bit better. Basically (unless I went really wrong with the numbers somewhere; I don't terribly feel like going over it line by line right now either so if you could point the places I went wrong out it would be helpful) we seem to have said the exact same thing but I used very specific examples for my explanation. Because I was showing how it varied against a lot of standard Marine-style targets (which was your fear). Thus I also tried to use the expected WS, Toughness and save values.

 

Either way I think you were talking about my TeQ numbers and I think we are basically square there as well (though it seems I was shorthanding 0.3 everywhere... that's what I get for doing it while I'm at work, too many distractions). :D

 

But yeah, I agree with you, against standard Marines the PS is king, it suffers against Terminators because it has AP3. In between if a target has a 4+ save then the numbers tilt back to the maul and against bikers in artificer armour it is still holding pretty strong. My numbers were just apparently a bit too quick and too dirty but are only off by a bit either way.

 

But looking over your revised numbers I am in agreement.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Coolio, my numbers were a bit quick and dirty too(haste at work plagues us all it seems :D )

 

I used to use my Chappies to bully MEQ, I guess they'll have to find other targets now.

 

The 'hug me' Chappie with Crozius and fist might be a really good option for 6th, games will tell.

 

s

 

Of course OT: the TDA Chappie will suffer and boon depending on target as he has no other CC option and DW are now very hard to kill for Maul equivalents.

The other day I had my last game of 5th, I had no hesitation of charging down two tactical TDAs with my PPistol/Crozius JP interrogator, now he would be doomed to fail.

 

Oh well, the sky is still up where it should be.

[eyeslikethunder]

i did wonder if bikes and terminators might go up in points value to go with their increase in durability

in the new codexes

[Ronin_eX]

I hope not, the increase in durability has finally made them worth their points. Now paying 40+ points for a terminator is a pretty sound investment. The primary reason they unerwhelmed even though they should have been well-costed was because there were too many easily spammable AP1/2/ignore-outright weapons in the game. With most power weapons being AP3 or worse (and those that aren't being rare or striking at I1) that major gap is finally closed and terminators no longer balk when they see a unit full of power weapon armed troops. This is as it should be a 2+ save is now worth the extra points paid for it because under previous editions the unbalanced disposition of the AP system (and weapons that just ignored it) meant more weapons existed that could beat 2+ saves and relatively few existed that only pierced AP3 saves. So I think balance has been achieved and 2+ saves reasonable investments again (and may even as important as grabbing a 4+ invuln in previous editions).

 

All I know is biker characters in artificer armour are scary hard to kill on the face of it. They can only be insta-killed by S10 weapons and have a 2+/4++ save in most cases. Combined with inherent Hammer of Wrath and you have a great fist-resistant character. It's kind of a shame we don't have the option of doing that in our codex. Oh well, here's hoping we get a few more options on Company Masters or generic entries for Masters of the Ravenwing/Deathwing in the next book. But other marine armies will be loving that combo methinks.

[shabbadoo]

Seeing as bikes were not worth their points previously, probably no points hike for them (if they do become Veterans). As to Terminators, they should stay the same as well. These units might seem great at first glance, but they still suffer from a lack of staying power, and we must remember that quite a few other units got new abilities of their own too. Not quite the point-click-win units that people might think them to be.

[facmanpob]

Agreed, possibly bikes might now actually be worth their points......which would mean that Codex:SM bikes would be undercosted! :(

[Reynolds]

As I've read some articles about "slowing the game down", in reference to the Updated Fearless rule especially(and Necrons).

- All I have to say is, that the ability to overwhelm the Deathwing in Close Combat(with the previous Fearless rule), was something that was hard for me to swallow(Oh look, a Guard Unit cutting apart my LC termies meant to hack them apart fast; better change them to TH/SS termies in the future).

 

Long story short,

 

This game is about fun, not about playing a Quickie Tourney game in the expense of Fluff. At least that's what I told myself in 94, and that's what I'll tell myself now.

- I remember in my youth when a dozen of Deathwing took down a whole city of Tyranid Infested Scum... instead of getting ran over by some lucky hits by hormagaunts.

- I'm just glad the Good 'ol Days have come back.

[Brother Immolator]

Agreed on the terminators and bikes points as well.

 

If the Chinese rumors hold sway and the ravenwing get 2 attacks base we might see our ravenwing from becoming zipping around rapidfiring/tankhunting and pray to live to add an assault parameter to their existence which befits our knightly theme IMHO.