Daemons in 6th edition

[breng77]

That really depends. Using just daemons, or daemons with allies?

 

Using just daemons I would look at

Fateweaver

Either a bloodthirster or lord of change

2-3 tzeentch daemon princes with breath of chaos and might. Possibly gaze as well if you have points.

Some fiends (2-3 units of 5 or 6)

Then some units of horrors/ or daemonettes for your troops.

[Cmdr Shepard]

That really depends. Using just daemons, or daemons with allies?

 

Using just daemons I would look at

Fateweaver

Either a bloodthirster or lord of change

2-3 tzeentch daemon princes with breath of chaos and might. Possibly gaze as well if you have points.

Some fiends (2-3 units of 5 or 6)

Then some units of horrors/ or daemonettes for your troops.

 

I have no issue in using allies but I suppose they will take points away from Flying MC and other cool models.

with fiends you mean "Fiend of Slaanesh" right?

If I'm not mistaken they are multi-part metal models. If they are needed I'll be glad to include them but you know plastic models are more "player friendly" when you move them around :(

Do you think bloodscrushers (very nice plastic models) can be a valid alternative?

 

Thanks for the assistance.

[Brother Ambroz]

Fiends are more fragile but much faster and can be deepstruck farther away because of their movement. Crushers are much slower but much more durable. Both are very powerful in close combat, just depends on which you need more in your list.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Fiends are more fragile but much faster and can be deepstruck farther away because of their movement. Crushers are much slower but much more durable. Both are very powerful in close combat, just depends on which you need more in your list.

 

As you may have already seen I plan to build an army with a good number of Flying MC, so who should be more useful: fiends or crushers?

[Ju'kosian]

crushers only hit with AP3 instead of ignoring armour.

Fiends still have rending, so with some luck you can still take out TDA.

depends on your style of play I guess

[Cmdr Shepard]

crushers only hit with AP3 instead of ignoring armour.

Fiends still have rending, so with some luck you can still take out TDA.

depends on your style of play I guess

 

I haven't a play style with daemon armies, yet :)

I plan to make the Flying MCs the "tip" of the main assault. Other units should support them. As I said I don't how effective it will be, since I'm not very expert about daemon armies.

[breng77]

Both can work, though fiends are my unit of choices. As for the models I don't use the fiend models I converted mine using blood crushers and tyranid raveners.

 

Allies do eat up a bit of your points and it really does depend on

What point level you are playing. At say 1500 point they are probably not a great choice at 2k I think they will be a go to choices as they cover some of he weaknesses daemons have (like shooting.)

[Black_Crusader]

. Other highlight was my Bloodthirster charging with one remaining wound his purifiers and brotherhood champion. The Daemon lost unfortunatly, If only it had one more wound at that point....

 

maybe should have issued a challenge with your thirster ? don't know exactly if it can do that but I think so.

But it's good to hear that we stand a better chance now, looking forward to test my daemons soon

 

I did, but he refused it with the Justicar, he put 5 wounds with the halbeards and i rolled a single 1, it was all in the dice really, if the thirster had survived i might have killed the brotherhood champion and take 2 VPs and a draw even if the thirster died next turn or later.

 

You do realise you can't choose which of your models refuses a challenge, right? You can choose who accepts or you can just refuse, in which case your opponent chooses who sits out of the fight. So in this case, with a Justicar and Brotherhood Champion in the same squad, he can't choose to refuse with the Justicar and keep the the Champion in the fight, because as soon as he refuses, you get to pick which of his characters misses out on fighting, which I'm assuming you'd have picked the champion to sit out.

 

 

At least it was my first game so i won't count it as a horrible mistake :) i missread that part and the justicar was the one that refused the challenge... To be honest, the brotherhood champion didn't manage to score a wound, the bloodthirster died from the halberds. It is good to know for future battles.

 

Do not underestimate the chaos daemon troops. Remember the only way to get through the feel no pain from the plaguebearers is with either dreadnought close combat or vindicators. Also without the ability to contest objectives with tanks you will need to kill all the plaguebearers to get to the objective.

In case of horrors i think the new edition benefits them a lot. Since you are now able to focuse on units out of cover they may finally become an counter horde shooting unit.

 

I don't know if you noticed it but in the list i posted i am going a lot in the fluff way, not for the best competitive way. The think is that if you want to get 4 greater daemons you will need 4 troops from chaos daemon codex so they are necessary. I think small squads of Plaguebearers will be the best option to cover the minimum troops needed if you feel the troops aren't worth it.

[breng77]

Nah minimum nurglings + allies is the way to go IMO. Sure it is hard to deny plague bearers fnp now but it is only a 5+ and they have a hard time doing better than their 5+ invul. So all things considered they equate to having a 4+ save. Throw that on top of being good for nothing other than camping objectives...makes them pretty sorry for 15 points. I agree that horrors got better but they are still a t3 unit with a 4+ save for more than the cost of a marine...

[Black_Crusader]

Never thought about nurglings, you are right about that, it is just that i don't have or use any and my mind didn't go there.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Both can work, though fiends are my unit of choices. As for the models I don't use the fiend models I converted mine using blood crushers and tyranid raveners.

 

Allies do eat up a bit of your points and it really does depend on

What point level you are playing. At say 1500 point they are probably not a great choice at 2k I think they will be a go to choices as they cover some of he weaknesses daemons have (like shooting.)

 

I may start with buying blood crushers, give them a try and eventually start a conversion.

I plan to play 2000 pts games, it is about to become the standard in my local gaming community.

 

I don't know if you noticed it but in the list i posted i am going a lot in the fluff way, not for the best competitive way. The think is that if you want to get 4 greater daemons you will need 4 troops from chaos daemon codex so they are necessary.

It is very "fluffy" indeed: every detachment belongs to a single chaos god. :(

 

Nah minimum nurglings + allies is the way to go IMO. Sure it is hard to deny plague bearers fnp now but it is only a 5+ and they have a hard time doing better than their 5+ invul. So all things considered they equate to having a 4+ save. Throw that on top of being good for nothing other than camping objectives...makes them pretty sorry for 15 points. I agree that horrors got better but they are still a t3 unit with a 4+ save for more than the cost of a marine...

 

Never thought about nurglings, you are right about that, it is just that i don't have or use any and my mind didn't go there.

Nurglings are old models, right?

 

Anyway, I have a question for you all.

What do you think it's the most effective approach: fielding only winged greater daemons, or fielding less greater daemons ( for example two with no additional primary detachment) and some winged daemon prince?

[breng77]

IF you have 2 force orgs to work with I would opt for more greater Daemons as you get more bang for your buck.

 

The Daemon Prince I run at the moment is 205-210 points

 

A Lord Of Change gives me +1 T, more shooting attacks, and a better save.

A Blood thirster gives me a 3+ armor save, +1 T, +2 Strength, and is much better over all in HtH.

[Cmdr Shepard]

IF you have 2 force orgs to work with I would opt for more greater Daemons as you get more bang for your buck.

 

The Daemon Prince I run at the moment is 205-210 points

 

A Lord Of Change gives me +1 T, more shooting attacks, and a better save.

A Blood thirster gives me a 3+ armor save, +1 T, +2 Strength, and is much better over all in HtH.

Since I plan to play 2000pts matches I'll have 2 FOC.

Taliking about models. Do you have any idea on converting the Lord of Change model into Fateweaver?

A friend of mine had lot of troubles with the metal fateweaver model. I don't like to have to re-glue it every time I put the model on the table. :(

[Ju'kosian]

IF you have 2 force orgs to work with I would opt for more greater Daemons as you get more bang for your buck.

 

The Daemon Prince I run at the moment is 205-210 points

 

A Lord Of Change gives me +1 T, more shooting attacks, and a better save.

A Blood thirster gives me a 3+ armor save, +1 T, +2 Strength, and is much better over all in HtH.

Since I plan to play 2000pts matches I'll have 2 FOC.

Taliking about models. Do you have any idea on converting the Lord of Change model into Fateweaver?

A friend of mine had lot of troubles with the metal fateweaver model. I don't like to have to re-glue it every time I put the model on the table. :ermm:

It's finecast now. I just use a normal lord of change (model) as Fateweaver.

[Cmdr Shepard]

IF you have 2 force orgs to work with I would opt for more greater Daemons as you get more bang for your buck.

 

The Daemon Prince I run at the moment is 205-210 points

 

A Lord Of Change gives me +1 T, more shooting attacks, and a better save.

A Blood thirster gives me a 3+ armor save, +1 T, +2 Strength, and is much better over all in HtH.

Since I plan to play 2000pts matches I'll have 2 FOC.

Taliking about models. Do you have any idea on converting the Lord of Change model into Fateweaver?

A friend of mine had lot of troubles with the metal fateweaver model. I don't like to have to re-glue it every time I put the model on the table. ;)

It's finecast now. I just use a normal lord of change (model) as Fateweaver.

Fateweaver is metal http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...dId=prod890006a

Lord of Change is Finecast http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...Id=prod1160163a

 

Anyway I think I'll use a standard Lord of Change too... I'd like to know if there is a quick way to add a second head ;)

[Cmdr Shepard]

I started to write the 2000pts "Flying MCs" list and I have several questions:

 

1. I'm not sure about the Lord of Changes: Bloodthirsters ratio. Do you suggest 2 Lords of Change and 2 Bloodthirsters or 1 Lord of Change and 3 Bloodthirsters?

I'm not sure about Fateweave. It has reduced stats just to give us the change to reroll failed save but if it fail a LD 9 check after it suffered a wound it is dead. Beside I doubt he will be often within 6" from other FMCs so it will the only one with "twin-linked" save.

 

2. What size do you suggest for troop units? Since I'm allocating a lot of points into MCs I though 5 models units may make Deep Strike easier without spendig the points for chaos icons.

 

3. What do you think about Bloodthirsters' shooting power? Is a single 12" S7 AP2 shooting attack worth its cost?

 

Thanks for the assistance.

[Black_Crusader]

1) I believe Fateweaver is a good choice unless you are afraid of the Ld test wich is a big drawback, if you think you can take the Ld at least once i believe he will make up for his points.

When you deepstrike start with him and then try to keep the rest monstrous creatures(they must be your priority) close to him with deep strike + run.

In the first turn they can fly after they deepstrike it will be easy to stay 6'' from Fateweaver for the buff, after that they will probably split but by now you already used the rerolls on all your vital units for two turns. If Fateweaver is still in the game you can use him for his shooting ability but i think at this point his reroll buff already served its purpose.

If you plan on taking him i would say go for Lord of change + 2 Bloodthirsters, if not i would suggest 3 Bloodthirsters and one Lord of change, since they are toο good not to use them.

 

2) 5 man units will be ok to stay on objectives and far from combat. First i think you should see what you will do with the rest of your points (support for the greater daemons). The minimum point cost for 4 troops and the 4 Greater daemons is somewhere around 1500 meaning you have 500 points to play with.

I plan on going for an elite support unit (big flamer unit or big crusher unit) and then buff the troops as much as possible.

You may want to put more support units or even buff the troops enough to take the support from them.

There is also the option of putting 2 flying Daemon princes of Nurgle but i fear that in this case you are running low on total amount of wounds, you will have to come down eventually and when you do you will get hurt, having six models with four wounds each may prove problematic.

 

3) If it was 10 points yes, but 20 points for a plasma pistol with BS 4 and no extra attack it doesn't worth it.

 

Hope that helps :D

[Cmdr Shepard]

1) I believe Fateweaver is a good choice unless you are afraid of the Ld test wich is a big drawback, if you think you can take the Ld at least once i believe he will make up for his points.

When you deepstrike start with him and then try to keep the rest monstrous creatures(they must be your priority) close to him with deep strike + run.

In the first turn they can fly after they deepstrike it will be easy to stay 6'' from Fateweaver for the buff, after that they will probably split but by now you already used the rerolls on all your vital units for two turns. If Fateweaver is still in the game you can use him for his shooting ability but i think at this point his reroll buff already served its purpose.

If you plan on taking him i would say go for Lord of change + 2 Bloodthirsters, if not i would suggest 3 Bloodthirsters and one Lord of change, since they are toο good not to use them.

 

2) 5 man units will be ok to stay on objectives and far from combat. First i think you should see what you will do with the rest of your points (support for the greater daemons). The minimum point cost for 4 troops and the 4 Greater daemons is somewhere around 1500 meaning you have 500 points to play with.

I plan on going for an elite support unit (big flamer unit or big crusher unit) and then buff the troops as much as possible.

You may want to put more support units or even buff the troops enough to take the support from them.

There is also the option of putting 2 flying Daemon princes of Nurgle but i fear that in this case you are running low on total amount of wounds, you will have to come down eventually and when you do you will get hurt, having six models with four wounds each may prove problematic.

 

3) If it was 10 points yes, but 20 points for a plasma pistol with BS 4 and no extra attack it doesn't worth it.

 

Hope that helps :)

 

It helps a lot, ;)

I thought about the Fateweaver and the buff to other MCs is to good to be ignored. Failing to 3++ save and then fail a LD9 check shouldn't be so frequent. It would be an extremely terrible luck, after all.

The idea of fielding two flying DP is very alluring but I'll be using a very limited number of models. Since I already have two DP I could give it a try then eventually buying other support units.

 

The only issue I see with bloodcrushers is their "footprint" during Deep Strike and Icons for every available unit (or just two of them) may require points I could use for other units. Beside I could be unlucky and I may roll to make "turn 1 entrance" with the bloodcrushers group with no icon on the table at the beginning of the turn. Do you have any suggestion?

 

For troops I thought to go with "fluff" and field Orrors and bloodletters to match the respective Greater Daemons. Do you think daemonettes would be a better choice?

 

20 pts for a BS4 plasma pistol is indeed too expensive. Lords of Change are better at shooting than Bloodthirsters, after all ;)

 

What's your opinion of the power that forces your oponent to make a T check with one of its models? (I don't have the English codex so I cannot quote its English name). Fatweaver already has it but I suppose giving it to the other Lord of Change may use points I could allocate to something else...

[Black_Crusader]

Like you said, Bloodcrushers should be on the second wave. A single icon in one of the troops will be enough for your second wave of support units that are not as easy to deepstrike as a lone monstrous creatures to arrive safely. If you get unlucky deepstrike them first at least 12'' from your opponent units (premessuring helps alot in this) then deploy the troops according to where the crushers landed. I choose to put an icon on the crushers too, if you get them first you may bring all your monstrous creatures around them (including Fateweaver for the usual Fatecrusher combo and for support against 2+ armour) That said, there is a good chance you may even benefit from the crushers coming first (although i wouldn't recommend the risk on purpose)

 

Those two are the best options IMO, unless you wanted a plaguebearer unit for their durability. (with how feel no pain and cover works now the plaguebearers are not as tough as before but they are a lot tougher than the other troop choices).

 

Since it is a shooting attack with BS Look out sir works on it so it loses some of its uses and even so it wasn't the most reliable power. On the other hand with how awesome breath of chaos has become (4+ for glancing on vehicles and ignore armour save for infantry) it is worth its points if you can find them. In other words always give priority to breath against other shooting attacks you could buy (except bolt of course for tzeentch princes and heralds).

[Cmdr Shepard]

Like you said, Bloodcrushers should be on the second wave. A single icon in one of the troops will be enough for your second wave of support units that are not as easy to deepstrike as a lone monstrous creatures to arrive safely. If you get unlucky deepstrike them first at least 12'' from your opponent units (premessuring helps alot in this) then deploy the troops according to where the crushers landed. I choose to put an icon on the crushers too, if you get them first you may bring all your monstrous creatures around them (including Fateweaver for the usual Fatecrusher combo and for support against 2+ armour) That said, there is a good chance you may even benefit from the crushers coming first (although i wouldn't recommend the risk on purpose)

 

Those two are the best options IMO, unless you wanted a plaguebearer unit for their durability. (with how feel no pain and cover works now the plaguebearers are not as tough as before but they are a lot tougher than the other troop choices).

 

Since it is a shooting attack with BS Look out sir works on it so it loses some of its uses and even so it wasn't the most reliable power. On the other hand with how awesome breath of chaos has become (4+ for glancing on vehicles and ignore armour save for infantry) it is worth its points if you can find them. In other words always give priority to breath against other shooting attacks you could buy (except bolt of course for tzeentch princes and heralds).

 

Thanks for the advices.

How do you suggest to divide the greater daemons? Counting on "stastical advanatge" (chosen group arrive on turn 1 with 3+ roll) or divide them equally between the two groups?

In the first case you have 2 out of 3 changes of having them on table on turn 1 but if you roll 1-2 you won't have any of them.

 

What should be the crushers' "prefered targets"?

 

Last question about icons: you suggested to put an icon on the crushers, where would you put the other one? On Horrors or Bloodletters?

[Black_Crusader]

How do you suggest to divide the greater daemons? Counting on "stastical advanatge" (chosen group arrive on turn 1 with 3+ roll) or divide them equally between the two groups?

In the first case you have 2 out of 3 changes of having them on table on turn 1 but if you roll 1-2 you won't have any of them.

 

It depends on the other units. If you go for daemon princes an even group would be best i think 2 greater daemons and 1 daemon prince for each wave.

If i played other support units i would roll the greater daemons together, even if you get the wrong wave getting your reserves in 3+ means you have good chances of getting 3 out of 4 greater daemons together at turn 2. Keeping them together helps with keeping them supported with each other. If you drop half the greater daemons and half troops you may find yourself needing the extra punch the HQ can give. That is just how i run the daemonzilla in general (all monsters together) and it usually works for me.

 

What should be the crushers' "prefered targets"?

 

Everything without a 2+ save... and get an assault as fast as possible. (don't try hunting a specific target as their problematic base size an move range will cost you time.)

 

Last question about icons: you suggested to put an icon on the crushers, where would you put the other one? On Horrors or Bloodletters?

 

I would say Bloodletters because they can be closer to the front line than horrors. Giving the icon to the Horrors might prevent them from deepstiking alone in a flank to shoot some units thet are in the open and stay away from the heavy close combat fighting.

 

 

Yesterday i had a game using 2 thirsters, Fateweaver, lord of change, 2 letter units, 1 horror unit, 1 plaguebearer unit and crushers.

 

My second icon was on the plaguebearers and the crushers where 7 model strong

I played against tyranids and lost the game beacause my deathstar crusher unit got stack on a tyranofex... :D worst thing was that with my dice (first 3 turns and i hadn't lost a single model or taken a wound and all my army was on the board!!!) i had no excuse for making horrible mistakes like letting the crushers stack and splitting the Bloodthirsters to go solo hunting far from each other :( . Come to think of it i really played horribly ;)

First time i got to use this 4 greater daemons list too.

[Cmdr Shepard]

How do you suggest to divide the greater daemons? Counting on "stastical advanatge" (chosen group arrive on turn 1 with 3+ roll) or divide them equally between the two groups?

In the first case you have 2 out of 3 changes of having them on table on turn 1 but if you roll 1-2 you won't have any of them.

 

It depends on the other units. If you go for daemon princes an even group would be best i think 2 greater daemons and 1 daemon prince for each wave.

If i played other support units i would roll the greater daemons together, even if you get the wrong wave getting your reserves in 3+ means you have good chances of getting 3 out of 4 greater daemons together at turn 2. Keeping them together helps with keeping them supported with each other. If you drop half the greater daemons and half troops you may find yourself needing the extra punch the HQ can give. That is just how i run the daemonzilla in general (all monsters together) and it usually works for me.

 

I'm a little tempted to go for daemon princes but I suspect I'll have a very low number of models, perhaps too low. Anyway all monsters together sounds a fine strategy, since they can support each other in their "hunting" :)

 

Yesterday i had a game using 2 thirsters, Fateweaver, lord of change, 2 letter units, 1 horror unit, 1 plaguebearer unit and crushers.

 

My second icon was on the plaguebearers and the crushers where 7 model strong

I played against tyranids and lost the game beacause my deathstar crusher unit got stack on a tyranofex... worst thing was that with my dice (first 3 turns and i hadn't lost a single model or taken a wound and all my army was on the board!!!) i had no excuse for making horrible mistakes like letting the crushers stack and splitting the Bloodthirsters to go solo hunting far from each other . Come to think of it i really played horribly

First time i got to use this 4 greater daemons list too.

When we first try a list it's not easy to play the best strategy. Anyway it seems you are pleased with your Flying MC performance, right? I think the MC works better if they support each others, as you have mentioned. If they charge an enemy unit in "tandem" they have greater chances to detroy the target.

 

Now I have only to decide if going for the daemon princes, the support units (crushers) or even trying some ally just to increase model count...

What's your opinion on that?

[Black_Crusader]

Now I have only to decide if going for the daemon princes, the support units (crushers) or even trying some ally just to increase model count...

What's your opinion on that?

 

Since i don't yet have anything to ally my daemons with i can't really say anything about allies.

On the subject of daemon princes over support units i say support. You already have 4 flying monstrous creatures that are tough to get while on the air. They will come down eventually (maybe even grounded on an enemy shooting turn) so you need to have some units that can take up some wounds. The elite choices in chaos daemons are still very strong.

Since we are talking about durability,

a daemon prince of nurgle with the usual gifts (fly,hide,noxius touch, cloud of flies) is 215 with 3+/5++ toughness 6 and 4 wounds.

A unit of 5 bloodcrushers will be 200 points with 3+/5++ toughness 5 and 10 wounds.

Once the prince is on the ground he will die a lot easier and he don't bring what the greater daemons bring.

 

Don't forget the grounded rule. If your opponent get's a single 6 with a unit shooting a flying monster you get a 3+ save or fall on the ground wich means normal shooting for next units that fire on you and able to get assaulted. (You also take a str9 no armour save wound when you fall)

[Cmdr Shepard]

Now I have only to decide if going for the daemon princes, the support units (crushers) or even trying some ally just to increase model count...

What's your opinion on that?

 

Since i don't yet have anything to ally my daemons with i can't really say anything about allies.

On the subject of daemon princes over support units i say support. You already have 4 flying monstrous creatures that are tough to get while on the air. They will come down eventually (maybe even grounded on an enemy shooting turn) so you need to have some units that can take up some wounds. The elite choices in chaos daemons are still very strong.

Since we are talking about durability,

a daemon prince of nurgle with the usual gifts (fly,hide,noxius touch, cloud of flies) is 215 with 3+/5++ toughness 6 and 4 wounds.

A unit of 5 bloodcrushers will be 200 points with 3+/5++ toughness 5 and 10 wounds.

Once the prince is on the ground he will die a lot easier and he don't bring what the greater daemons bring.

 

Don't forget the grounded rule. If your opponent get's a single 6 with a unit shooting a flying monster you get a 3+ save or fall on the ground wich means normal shooting for next units that fire on you and able to get assaulted. (You also take a str9 no armour save wound when you fall)

 

You have a very good point of crushers. They have the same saves of daemon prince but they have more than the double of its wounds.

I'm aware of the grounded rule. However I think the invul save of greater daemons (3++ for Lords of Change and 4++ for Bloodthirsters) may prevent to suffer a wound when grounded and help them survive the incoming "bullet storm", especially when Fateweaver is nearby ;)

Currently I have the models for the 4 Greater Daemons (I'll use a Lord Change for Fateweaver. I don't like the old metal model: to fragile on the table. I may add a second head to the model is needed ;) ) and the troops choices.

My next buy will be crushers next month. In the mean time I could just use some ally to test the daemon. I have some Chaos SM models I haven't used in a very long time, for example, if I want to play before acquiring the crushers.

 

The only thing I'm worried is a "flanking" unit. If they manage to sneak behind my scoring units they may have some issue in protecting the objectives. Maybe keeping a unit of Bloodletters near Horrors may be a good idea. At least I'll have some shooting attack before moving the letters toward the flanking unit and protect the objective. The changeling could be useful too.

 

Anyway I have one more question:

When the Greater Daemons arrive from reserve (or enter the field on turn 1) can we choose to make them fly? Of course they could move but if we are allowed to treat them them as "flying" we could make them harder to hit and we can make them run 2d6". What do you think on this?

 

Thanks very much for your assistance. Your adivces are very useful.

[Black_Crusader]

Don't have my rulebook with me now (I left it to the store :P ) but if i recall correct when you arrive from reserves you may choose how you want them to be so flying it is :)