Hear da Lamentation Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Rhinos ... I love em ... But some nasty changes in 6th ... 6" max move to allow disembark, can't ever assault after disembarking and 3 glances pops it .... seems to be making it quite a lot less effective. What are your opinions ... are they still going to be the main deployment choice for wolves? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 i'm thinking razorback+10 greyhunters+wolf guard might become more popular. sure they'll bee footslogging but the razorback can act as a shield+fireplatform Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3106260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kassill Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Yes, vehicles have gotten a nasty bite on the behind and it's sad. However, I will be switching to Drop Pods and Rapid Fire of Doom style list. As many Grey Hunter Packs as I can get coming down with Plasma's and Melta's (mainly to insta kill and the fact I don't feel like yanking the models apart) with Rune Priests locking down the psychic realm. Really it's the kind of army I have been wanting to play and now with vehicles gone bottom up, I'll be going that way I think. Only problem is I hate assembling those blasted drop pods..... However, if you are still looking to use your rhino's, I believe the key to helping them live (key word, helping, keeping) is to have some Rune Priests who can keep putting up Stormcaller bubbles, and moving the rhino's as quick as possible. 12" Cruising speed + 6" Flat Out. Also remember to use Smoke. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3106268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddywarcrimes Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I'm keeping my Rhinos for my big brawler packs of Grey Hunters. Firs turn, they drive 12" and flat out anther 6", popping smoke if needed, and blocking big. Guns from firing on the squads of Wolf Guard trundling into midfield. I don't think they'll live through my opponent's first turn, but they really don't need to. They're just terrain that I get to place mid game. The only question is whether they are walls or craters. The rest of the vehicles are probably going on the shelf, aside from two assault cannon Razorbacks for AA duty. I used to love land speeders. Now they die to a stiff breeze. Our Heavy Support tanks have always been bad, and their fragility makes them worse. The only vehicles I expect to get more than a turn from will be dreadnoughts kitted for fire support. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3106295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I think Rhinos will still be very much effective because the new edition has created a threat rich environment for our opponents. Think aboout TWC, Swift Claws, and/or Sky Claws rushing up the field. WGTDA dropping in via pods or rumbling up the field via a LR. The new edition has guaranteed that an opponent is going to have many more things to worry about across the table then trying to glance to death our GH Rhinos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3106302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimdall Skullcrusher Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Yeah the 18" rhino move is a little bit a consolation to their increased fragility. But it is imporant to note you can't pop smoke and move flat out at the same time. Truth be told, rhinos were pretty fragile already. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3106308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Make a comparision between 5th edition SW and 6th edition SW: 5th: Mech ruled the land to move our jack of all trades GH up to mid as quickly as possible. GH were mid range monsters and we put a ton on their shoulders to carry us to victory. The meta game of our opponents evolved to remove that mid range rush by popping our transports and putting our workhorse GH packs on the ground. The assumptions of 6th: Rhinos are so deathly fragile that they will be destroyed as soon as you unpack them form your Battlefoam. Our meta game is evolving to foot sloggers which of course our opponents are already doing as well because of the same opinion that mech is dead. Everyone is arming for antiinfantry and anti-aircraft. The reality of 6th: Rhinos deliver our GH to midrange even faster and more reliably then before with the 12" + 6" movements. Our GH no longer need to take on so much responsibility as Troops due to the new rules for TWC, bikes, and jump infantry. New rules for movement for calvary, bikes, and jump infantry put them right within striking distance to support our GH at mid range, thus not forcing our GH to carry the burden of winning the battle. TWC are no longer relegated to being deathstars. With the new rules opening up our army selections, multiple threats across the spectrum are now available to force an opponent to choose more wisely. As a summary, mech is still alive. It isn't 5th edition mech, but 6th edition mech and I see it seamlessly being integrated with the new synergy of the SW units as a whole. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3106337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khine Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 I can actually still see Rhino's being a viable for foot slogging lists. As hendrik pointed out earlier, the rhino chassis can be a great shield for keeping our units safe. They still allow us to get up to halfway first turn even if they are just going 12" and popping smoke, plus now we don't need to worry about taking wounds, getting pinned, getting surrounded when they blow up. So imo they still have a place, just not nearly as focal. Drop-pods do seem to be a better way of getting in though and much more likely to survive. Though they don't really allow for cover.. unless they could as area/obstructed view. So there are pros/cons to both. It's going to require a lot of play testing to figure out what will work best. One thing i will say though, this is going to put a huge dampener on the whole Razorback spam for any army and i feel infinitely sorry for people who spent the money buying all those vehicles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3106573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmk17 Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Make a comparision between 5th edition SW and 6th edition SW: 5th: Mech ruled the land to move our jack of all trades GH up to mid as quickly as possible. GH were mid range monsters and we put a ton on their shoulders to carry us to victory. The meta game of our opponents evolved to remove that mid range rush by popping our transports and putting our workhorse GH packs on the ground. The assumptions of 6th: Rhinos are so deathly fragile that they will be destroyed as soon as you unpack them form your Battlefoam. Our meta game is evolving to foot sloggers which of course our opponents are already doing as well because of the same opinion that mech is dead. Everyone is arming for antiinfantry and anti-aircraft. The reality of 6th: Rhinos deliver our GH to midrange even faster and more reliably then before with the 12" + 6" movements. Our GH no longer need to take on so much responsibility as Troops due to the new rules for TWC, bikes, and jump infantry. New rules for movement for calvary, bikes, and jump infantry put them right within striking distance to support our GH at mid range, thus not forcing our GH to carry the burden of winning the battle. TWC are no longer relegated to being deathstars. With the new rules opening up our army selections, multiple threats across the spectrum are now available to force an opponent to choose more wisely. As a summary, mech is still alive. It isn't 5th edition mech, but 6th edition mech and I see it seamlessly being integrated with the new synergy of the SW units as a whole. I think that's a good summation. To add to it, remember there are certain infantry that will not even get close to even glancing. So against certain armies, mech will still be very useful once heavy threats are eliminated. To be honest, unless they went completely back to 4E death traps for Rhinos... mech wouldn't be dead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3106608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
clanfield Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 also the lead rhinos block los to the ones behind and wreackage can provide cover for squads to deploy behind all in all not bad for the price Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3106873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Not sure razorspam is dead 30 hull points at 1750 is still a lot to get You can move and the shoot both weapons now Twinn linked On the plasma is good for flyers and gets hot 30 ap2 a turn is handy vs terminators It's much harder to stop a tank shooting pens only Randomised weapon destroyed means sb and missile upgrades have an extra bOnus Kill points which really hurt msu reduced 1 in 6 rather than 1-3 Glances not longer stun or destroy weapons Using vehicles as firebases could be strong on 6th Vindicators could be good add a missle and sb to reduce the chance of losing the main gun due to randomisation Assaulting out of vehicles is nerfed bit but true razorspam lists took little to no cc equipment 4-5 razorbacks is not razorspam that's just a SW list with a few rbs Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3107002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Not sure razorspam is dead 30 hull points at 1750 is still a lot to get You can move and the shoot both weapons now Twinn linked On the plasma is good for flyers and gets hot 30 ap2 a turn is handy vs terminators It's much harder to stop a tank shooting pens only Randomised weapon destroyed means sb and missile upgrades have an extra bOnus Kill points which really hurt msu reduced 1 in 6 rather than 1-3 Glances not longer stun or destroy weapons Using vehicles as firebases could be strong on 6th Vindicators could be good add a missle and sb to reduce the chance of losing the main gun due to randomisation Assaulting out of vehicles is nerfed bit but true razorspam lists took little to no cc equipment 4-5 razorbacks is not razorspam that's just a SW list with a few rbs Razorspam is still alive, but MSU is dead in 6th. Razorspam will be limited based on the amount of points to run full GH packs over the min max GH/WG packs of true Razorspam. Razors as fire bases for footslogging GH packs will be nice, especially with the ability to move and shoot and the bonuses to damage for both the las/plas set up and twin-linked las. I am also thinking that Razors with asscans or heavy bolters might make a great showing as well due to how fast the Razor can get to mid range and then the amount of shots you can they laydown. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3107644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimdall Skullcrusher Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Razorspam is still alive, but MSU is dead in 6th. Razorspam will be limited based on the amount of points to run full GH packs over the min max GH/WG packs of true Razorspam. Brother Ramses, not disagreeing with you, but would like you to ellaborate on this. How is MSU dead in 6th? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3107671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Razorspam is still alive, but MSU is dead in 6th. Razorspam will be limited based on the amount of points to run full GH packs over the min max GH/WG packs of true Razorspam. Brother Ramses, not disagreeing with you, but would like you to ellaborate on this. How is MSU dead in 6th? With the introduction of Look Out Sir, units with a character such as a WG are going to be dependent on plain old bodies to be effective in assault. In addition the new rapid fire rules and Overwatch place a premium on our second special weapon being available which is only allowed in max GH packs. With everything introduced, including the new missions and scenarios, I cannot find a viable use for them at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3107687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimdall Skullcrusher Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Razorspam is still alive, but MSU is dead in 6th. Razorspam will be limited based on the amount of points to run full GH packs over the min max GH/WG packs of true Razorspam. Brother Ramses, not disagreeing with you, but would like you to ellaborate on this. How is MSU dead in 6th? With the introduction of Look Out Sir, units with a character such as a WG are going to be dependent on plain old bodies to be effective in assault. In addition the new rapid fire rules and Overwatch place a premium on our second special weapon being available which is only allowed in max GH packs. With everything introduced, including the new missions and scenarios, I cannot find a viable use for them at all. I haven't looked through the missions at all really yet. But it seems like MSUs could still be valuable. Yes they might not consist of as many meat shields for a character but I'm not sure thats what MSUs were about in the first place. And the rules with Overwatch only allow you to fire at one unit assaulting, so if a unit is being teamed up on by multiple MSUs it can be beneficial in that only one of those units will be shot at. Yes there is a premium in having multiple special weapons but if you have 2 weapons in one 10 man pack or 1 weapon in two 5 man packs it is the same amount of weapons/firing. I realize there are lots of changes in the games, but I'm not sure it will alter the effectiveness of MSUs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3107738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear da Lamentation Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 I like the idea of razorback shooting and cover platforms for grey hunter packs. At this very early stage, I can see big units like 10 grey hunters with 2 plasma, a wg (possibly in termie armour to put him at the front and soak up lots of damage due to new wound allocation rules, or with a CML to take advantage of precise shot) being a popular use of our beloved hunters. A razor with an ap2 weapon would be a nice addition to this unit. As I say, early doors. I've only played 1 6th edition game so far ... 650 points .... But the foot slogging grey hunters did well and the ability to move and shoot at 24 with 2 plasma guns was very nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3107802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chucku Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 I just put together an all foot-slogging list which looks like fun! Rhinos are dead to me... :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3107880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 I haven't looked through the missions at all really yet. But it seems like MSUs could still be valuable. Yes they might not consist of as many meat shields for a character but I'm not sure thats what MSUs were about in the first place. And the rules with Overwatch only allow you to fire at one unit assaulting, so if a unit is being teamed up on by multiple MSUs it can be beneficial in that only one of those units will be shot at. Yes there is a premium in having multiple special weapons but if you have 2 weapons in one 10 man pack or 1 weapon in two 5 man packs it is the same amount of weapons/firing. I realize there are lots of changes in the games, but I'm not sure it will alter the effectiveness of MSUs. The new multiple assault rules also benefit MSU. As large units lose their charge bonus taking on multiple targets. Plus in CC MSU will have more characters due a greater number of units. So while your 1 character is stuck killing his 1w character his multiple characters are free hack your troops apart Plus if you multicharge you get multiple over-watched where if you charge with a lot of small units only one gets overwatched as the defenders can only fire at one target plus kill points is less important now So I dont think MSU is dead but will it guarantee you victory either no Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255314-rhinos-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3107896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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