Morticon Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Mathhammer.. it doesn't look good for the poor lascannon. Im with you generally speaking, but... You're not factoring in statistical standard deviation, which can see your reliability drop considerably. The lascannon is very reliable for lower armour (AV10 for example) vehicles because once you hit, you WILL get at least a glance - no exceptions. In addition to that remember the 8*2 rule - S8+, AP2- Lascannon is one of those weapons- they help hugely with paladins and other T4 armoured gribblies. Also been thinking that with its new ability, the typhoon may even be handy now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Hello Brothers, I have question do they count towards reserve limit or not? As I had huge problem to use my dual raven meph list (poor meph with AP3 sword ~~) thank you in advance ~BT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 They dont count, no. The stuff inside does though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Everyone is raving about the Stormraven and how nearly auto-include it must be now. I'm worried because while BA players are making this judgement about Ravens, all the other codexes are making the same judgement about *their* flyers. The Stormraven is not the premier dogfighter either, I would rate it at #2... behind the Vendetta, which is cheaper, hits harder, and has close to same survivability. Edit: Also, while going 2nd is beneficial for dogfighting (shoot his flyers with yours), you're now going 2nd against an IG list. Lose-lose? No just grim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaarl Stormfang Posted July 7, 2012 Author Share Posted July 7, 2012 AV11:TL LC: 0.15 glancings, 0.59 penetrating, total 0.74 (loser) TL AC: 0.49 glancings, 0.59 penetrating, total 1.09 (winner) I haven't run the numbers myself but this seems wrong at a glance. You should have exactly the same chance to glance AV11 as you should to pen it (5s glance, 6s pen) should you not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joasht Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 The thing is, I feel like we are paying premium for assault vehicle, and unless I am mistaken, you don't get a whole lot of mileage from Assault Vehicle when you take it as a Flyer. If I wanted something that drops stuff the minute it comes onto the table, then flies off shooting stuff, I'd be far happier with something that isn't an Assault Vehicle to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sviox Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 AV11:TL LC: 0.15 glancings, 0.59 penetrating, total 0.74 (loser) TL AC: 0.49 glancings, 0.59 penetrating, total 1.09 (winner) I haven't run the numbers myself but this seems wrong at a glance. You should have exactly the same chance to glance AV11 as you should to pen it (5s glance, 6s pen) should you not? You're right. There was a mistake in calculation of non-rending hits (affecting against AV10 and AV11). It's corrected now. Thanks for pointing it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdbath Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Hey all, Just a quick point about about zooming stormravens. I just been reading over and over the disembarking rules and it seems like you can zoom forward the first turn you arrive and then on your next turn you can drop your troops and then your storm raven can zoom off again. Seems like a good tactic and then it makes sure it does not turn it into a hovering peace of rubbish... This to me seems MASSIVE! What do you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Hey all, Just a quick point about about zooming stormravens. I just been reading over and over the disembarking rules and it seems like you can zoom forward the first turn you arrive and then on your next turn you can drop your troops and then your storm raven can zoom off again. Seems like a good tactic and then it makes sure it does not turn it into a hovering peace of rubbish... What do you guys think? You have to transition to Hover Mode in order to disembark any troops. I could be wrong but I don't believe you can make two transitions in one turn (so you would spend at least one turn as a Fast Skimmer). Just had a look and I'm right. Page 81 of the Rulebook: A Flyer with the Hover Mode ability must declare which mode it is using at the beginning of it's Movement Phase. On page 80: Models may not disembark from a Flyer that is in Zoom mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdbath Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 You have to transition to Hover Mode in order to disembark any troops. I could be wrong but I don't believe you can make two transitions in one turn (so you would spend at least one turn as a Fast Skimmer). Can't see that rule, can anyone point me to the bit in the rulebook that says that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 You have to transition to Hover Mode in order to disembark any troops. I could be wrong but I don't believe you can make two transitions in one turn (so you would spend at least one turn as a Fast Skimmer). Can't see that rule, can anyone point me to the bit in the rulebook that says that. As in my post above, pages 80 and 81 of the rulebook, under the rules for Flyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdbath Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 You have to transition to Hover Mode in order to disembark any troops. I could be wrong but I don't believe you can make two transitions in one turn (so you would spend at least one turn as a Fast Skimmer). Can't see that rule, can anyone point me to the bit in the rulebook that says that. As in my post above, pages 80 and 81 of the rulebook, under the rules for Flyers. It says you can't embark and disembark from a zooming flyer... Is the storm raven zooming before it moves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sviox Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Mathhammer.. it doesn't look good for the poor lascannon. Im with you generally speaking, but... You're not factoring in statistical standard deviation, which can see your reliability drop considerably. The lascannon is very reliable for lower armour (AV10 for example) vehicles because once you hit, you WILL get at least a glance - no exceptions. In addition to that remember the 8*2 rule - S8+, AP2- Lascannon is one of those weapons- they help hugely with paladins and other T4 armoured gribblies. Also been thinking that with its new ability, the typhoon may even be handy now. Standard deviation is just a figure to represent the dispersion/expected deviation from given results. It doesn't have any meaningful importance when we're talking about absolute groups of results (i.e. it doesn't matter if a weapon penetrates AV10 with 11 or 15; there is only three result groups: does nothing, glances and penetrates). Statistical math isn't exactly my favorite so correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 You have to transition to Hover Mode in order to disembark any troops. I could be wrong but I don't believe you can make two transitions in one turn (so you would spend at least one turn as a Fast Skimmer). Can't see that rule, can anyone point me to the bit in the rulebook that says that. As in my post above, pages 80 and 81 of the rulebook, under the rules for Flyers. It says you can't embark and disembark from a zooming flyer... Is the storm raven zooming before it moves? Ok, I'll run through this again. At the BEGINNING of any Movement Phase you must declare which movement type your Flyer is using (Zoom or Hover). This includes a Stormraven that comes in from Reserve. As you cannot move less than 18" when Zooming, and as you cannot disembark from a vehicle that has moved more than 6", it stands to reason that you MUST be in Hover mode to disembark any troops. As the choice for movement type is made at the beginning of your Movement Phase, you cannot transition twice in one turn. If you wish to disembark troops, you must begin the turn in Hover mode, making the Stormraven a Fast Skimmer for the rest of the Game Turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sviox Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 You have to transition to Hover Mode in order to disembark any troops. I could be wrong but I don't believe you can make two transitions in one turn (so you would spend at least one turn as a Fast Skimmer). Can't see that rule, can anyone point me to the bit in the rulebook that says that. As in my post above, pages 80 and 81 of the rulebook, under the rules for Flyers. It says you can't embark and disembark from a zooming flyer... Is the storm raven zooming before it moves? Luckily the "Skies of Blood" is an exception to this rule. FAQed, it says that basically we can use it whenever the SR has moved >6" (even when zooming). I'm thinking of using SR from reserve, dropping the transported jump infantry the same turn it arrives. EDIT: And since you can't assault the turn you disembark from any transport, this is now quite a good option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdbath Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 You have to transition to Hover Mode in order to disembark any troops. I could be wrong but I don't believe you can make two transitions in one turn (so you would spend at least one turn as a Fast Skimmer). Can't see that rule, can anyone point me to the bit in the rulebook that says that. As in my post above, pages 80 and 81 of the rulebook, under the rules for Flyers. It says you can't embark and disembark from a zooming flyer... Is the storm raven zooming before it moves? Luckily the "Skies of Blood" is an exception to this rule. FAQed, it says that basically we can use it whenever the SR has moved >6" (even when zooming). I'm thinking of using SR from reserve, dropping the transported jump infantry the same turn it arrives. EDIT: And since you can't assault the turn you disembark from any transport, this is now quite a good option. Don't the stormravens have an assault ramp thing so they can assault on the turn they disembark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 You have to transition to Hover Mode in order to disembark any troops. I could be wrong but I don't believe you can make two transitions in one turn (so you would spend at least one turn as a Fast Skimmer). Can't see that rule, can anyone point me to the bit in the rulebook that says that. As in my post above, pages 80 and 81 of the rulebook, under the rules for Flyers. It says you can't embark and disembark from a zooming flyer... Is the storm raven zooming before it moves? Luckily the "Skies of Blood" is an exception to this rule. FAQed, it says that basically we can use it whenever the SR has moved >6" (even when zooming). I'm thinking of using SR from reserve, dropping the transported jump infantry the same turn it arrives. EDIT: And since you can't assault the turn you disembark from any transport, this is now quite a good option. Except the Stormraven is an Assault Vehicle, so if you disembark from it in the normal manner you CAN declare a charge in the same turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklighter Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 They dont count, no. The stuff inside does though. I'd totally missed that as all flyers have to start off the board so it's not counted towards the reserve limit! It just never clicked untill I read this. Do we know if you can skies of boold from a zooming flyer yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdbath Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 They dont count, no. The stuff inside does though. I'd totally missed that as all flyers have to start off the board so it's not counted towards the reserve limit! It just never clicked untill I read this. Do we know if you can skies of boold from a zooming flyer yet? You can indeed via the faqs I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdbath Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 That is my point is a flyer zooming before it moves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 That is my point is a flyer zooming before it moves? That depends on which Movement mode you use? I'm not seeing where the confusion is arising from. At the beginning of your Movement Phase you declare which movement type the Flyer is going to use. If you choose the Zoom mode, then your Flyer counts as Zooming for the entire Game Turn. A Zooming Flyer must move at least 18" or else it crashes and is wrecked automatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdbath Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 That is my point is a flyer zooming before it moves? That depends on which Movement mode you use? I'm not seeing where the confusion is arising from. At the beginning of your Movement Phase you declare which movement type the Flyer is going to use. If you choose the Zoom mode, then your Flyer counts as Zooming for the entire Game Turn. A Zooming Flyer must move at least 18" or else it crashes and is wrecked automatically. Nope you decide what type of movement you use before the flyer moves and not at the start of the phase... I might be wrong but that is what I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 That is my point is a flyer zooming before it moves? That depends on which Movement mode you use? I'm not seeing where the confusion is arising from. At the beginning of your Movement Phase you declare which movement type the Flyer is going to use. If you choose the Zoom mode, then your Flyer counts as Zooming for the entire Game Turn. A Zooming Flyer must move at least 18" or else it crashes and is wrecked automatically. Nope you decide what type of movement you use before the flyer moves and not at the start of the phase... I might be wrong but that is what I can see. You are correct, it is declared before the vehicle moves. However, I don't see what relevance that has on your previous questions? The Flyer will carry over whatever mode it was using from the previous phase until you make a decision in the next Movement Phase. You ask questions but then you seem to ignore the answers. What exactly is it that you want to know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdbath Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 You are correct, it is declared before the vehicle moves. However, I don't see what relevance that has on your previous questions? The Flyer will carry over whatever mode it was using from the previous phase until you make a decision in the next Movement Phase. You ask questions but then you seem to ignore the answers. What exactly is it that you want to know? Does it keep it's movement at the start of the phase? Where does it say that. On a fresh turn it kinda resets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 You are correct, it is declared before the vehicle moves. However, I don't see what relevance that has on your previous questions? The Flyer will carry over whatever mode it was using from the previous phase until you make a decision in the next Movement Phase. You ask questions but then you seem to ignore the answers. What exactly is it that you want to know? Does it keep it's movement at the start of the phase? Where does it say that. On a fresh turn it kinda resets What difference does it make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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