Stormravens in 6th

[birdbath]

What difference does it make?

well the troops inside can disembark and assaut before the storm raven moves and then when it is the stormravens turn to move it can opt to zoom off to safty. That is what makes the difference.

[shortysl]

What difference does it make?

well the troops inside can disembark and assaut before the storm raven moves and then when it is the stormravens turn to move it can opt to zoom off to safty. That is what makes the difference.

 

No. The previous turn's mode will carry over until you opt to move the Stormraven, at which point you declare whether it will continue with the previous mode, or swap to the alternate mode. At no point does the mode 'reset'. Thus, if the Flyer Zoomed in the previous turn it will have to Hover in order to disembark troops. You're concentrating on the rules for Disembarking when this actually involves the rules for Flyers. No matter which way you try to bend it, if you wish to disembark troops and assault with them, you will have to spend a turn as a Fast Skimmer.

 

Instead of trying to find loopholes, why don't you just think of ways to use your Stormraven more effectively.

[Stormbrow II]

The Stormraven is not the premier dogfighter either, I would rate it at #2... behind the Vendetta, which is cheaper, hits harder, and has close to same survivability.

 

Edit: Also, while going 2nd is beneficial for dogfighting (shoot his flyers with yours), you're now going 2nd against an IG list. Lose-lose? No just grim.

I reckon the best fighter is the Necron Scythe (the Ded Transport) with Tesla destructor as its relatively cheap and can have enough shots to down another Flyer in one go by stripping Hull Points.

 

Then there's the Vendetta.

Then the Stormraven.

[birdbath]

I am just trying to find the right way ot get the best out of our bird. I will just have to use hover mode for my first game next week.

[shortysl]

I am just trying to find the right way ot get the best out of our bird. I will just have to use hover mode for my first game next week.

 

Look, I'm not trying to :P you over ok? I'm a Grey Knight player so I too have to deal with the changes that have been made to the Stormraven. Just remember, even a Fast Skimmer gets a 5+ Jink save (4+ if it moves Flat Out) so it's not as vulnerable as it may first appear in Hover Mode. The only thing you need to worry about is Imperial Guard Hydras as they have Skyfire (I think) AND they also ignore Jink saves. Other than that, the Stormraven is the toughest bird in the sky.

 

Skies of Blood will allow you to disembark Jump Infantry safely if you don't want to Hover, but if you want to assault in the same turn too, you will need to Hover at least once in the game.

 

Either way, I wish you luck in your first game. Have fun, and good hunting.

[Drunken Angel]

Seems like we have three methods of getting into combat here

 

Snorris idea, flat out zoom onto the board, SOB the troops out of it at the end of the turn. Next turn zoom away again ? ....

 

 

zoom ? (bloody zoom and skyfire ? what crap words, bloody GW is it only me that dislikes these words) sighs .... gets back on topic

 

Sure you will take a round of shooting, do they shoot at the assaulty things that dropped out ? probably yes they will, hence the use for Libbies and Priests to give the expensive assaulters some hope of surviving (DC and SS/termies come to mind here). Will they shoot the Raven ? probably not it is going too fast both turns, the troops will get the majority of the gunfire.

Main point is the Raven is probably safe but fire will not be split, it will go into the assaulty troops.

 

Second version, zoom first turn keep everything in and expect the Raven to get raked by gunfire as its in range and has a load of assault nasties onboard. It will likely survive from its fast saves and jinks but maybe lose some hull points. Next turn move the Raven only enough to make combat for the troops inside and drop them with the combat ramp. The Raven is somewhat shredded but the assault troops should make combat. With combat troops in combat the Raven will probably take a second turn of shooting with no decent saves and die.

 

Skys of Blood allows us to keep the Raven alive and drop troops, yes they take incoming fire but the raven will probably be okay, second option using the assault ramp we likely lose the Raven but get the troops to combat.

 

The third and best method I see is to take two Ravens to split fire forcing terrible choices on the gunners. This is best achieved with matched units . Splitting fire reduces shooting on one model allowing the two Ravens to survive longer. You can run disruptors such as landspeeders up at the same time. Landspeeders with multimeltas and heavy flamers will make a great screen. Land speeders are cheap and nasty and make a great escort for the Raven. I am sure Mort will say bikers and he would not be wrong. Either two ravens or a single raven with an escort screen to disrupt. I would like VV but we are restricted because of the 50% reserve rule. Speeders/Bikes Dropod units or Baals seem pretty good options. A DC/ drop podded unit would be fine. You can run up 4 speeders and a Raven in a 1500 pt list and not break the bank. Or a drop pod of DC with bolters backfield to mess things up.

Dedicated transport drop pods and troops in them are reserved but are mandatory reserves they dont count towards the 50% they come in on first turn can be placed accurately therefore are very useful.

We need to look at dusruptive units that can start on the board leaving us reserve options. Disruptive units that contribute to shooting and support the raven and its contents on the following turn.

 

Raven support plays beautifully to a fast army

[Tamwulf]

Weapons Loadout: You really need a plan with this thing. Ranges don't concern me too much. Zooming means you can pretty much cover the board. The only thing to watch out for would be passing your target due to minimum movement of 18" and only the one 90 degree pivot at the beginning of the move.

 

I'm thinking the TL Assault Cannon, TL Heavy Bolters, and Blood Strike Missiles are the way to go. All the other flyers in the game are pretty much AV11 and 2-3 HP. Anything bigger can be cracked with the Blood Strike Missiles. The TL Assault Cannon can pretty much shred any other flyer in the game... including other Stormravens (always a possibility!). The Multimelta option seems attractive due to AP 1 and the +2 on the Pen chart, but it's one shot, and we are seeing increasingly more and more vehicles with Ceramite Armor (ignores bonus d6 for armor penetration). I'm thinking Mathhammer wise, the TL Assault Cannon is the way to go. Because you have to give up the TL Assault Cannon for a TL Lascannon... ick. Plasma Cannon? Not sure I want the chance of losing a HP with an incredibly random weapon that could scatter and totally miss your target. The Typhoon could be attractive, but it's more points. The TL Heavy Bolters have a chance of taking out AV 11, and they are free, so...

 

For a Gunship role to support your troops, I'd go with Hurricane Bolters. Volume of fire > quality of fire. As in, if I shoot a Lascannon, yeah, I'll probably kill one model. If I shoot with 12 TL Bolters... I'll probably kill more than one model. Or at least have the chance to kill more than one model. Fun fun fun!

 

Possible Loadouts:

TLAC + TLHB: Standard Config, good vs. other flyers, good vs. just about everything else. Cheap.

 

TLLC + Typhoon: Some great range, great hard armor cracking abilities. Not so good for anti-infantry/close air support.

 

TLAC + Typhoon: Very good combo! Good for cracking hard armor, good anti-infantry.

 

TLLC + TLHB: Seems inefficient and a bit schizophrenic.

 

The other weapons are just variants of the above, but I would avoid the MM + TLPC, combo. Maybe good against Termy's, but inefficient against just about anything else. Don't forget about the Bloodstrike Missiles!

 

For infantry support- hard to beat the Hurricane Bolters.

 

Lots of good stuff in this thread!

[Father Mapple]

A flyer comes on from Reserves with a 18-36" movement and is able to shoot some weapons. BUT, if it chooses not to shoot, it can move another 12-24". This means at the smallest, it could move a total of 30" up to a very impressive 60", from reserves.

 

Theoretically, the troops inside could jump out, and the Stormraven not even be on the table at the end of your own turn. Granted, it didn't get to shoot, but it got to deliver the models. And a S4 glancing on the Dread's rear armor (if it fails dangerous terrain) is not that bad, especially with troops getting armor saves now for those kinds of saves.

 

This plus the other options described above, really makes the SR super tactically flexible to me. I planned on putting Sanguinary Guard inside with a Priest with Jump pack, a Furioso, and having all those guys disembark with Skies of Blood same turn of arrival, but far enough away or behind cover so they don't get shot to death. Then, these guys won't be the only targets since the other 50% of my army that HAD to be deployed on turn 1 will soak up some fire, and I don't risk the SR to anything EXCEPT interceptor fire, which is not going to be common for a while.

 

What do you guys think?

[Sviox]

Except the Stormraven is an Assault Vehicle, so if you disembark from it in the normal manner you CAN declare a charge in the same turn.

 

Of course.. As I said, I'm still building my first. Completely forgot about that one.

[Seth84]

So quick question. I plan on running 2 Stormravens, one with non-jump-pack DC, Chaplain/Lemartes + Furioso Dred, 2nd with Assault Termies + Libby, lotta points I know...

Anyway so if I've got it correct it would go like this:

 

Turn 1: Flyers must start in reserve

Turn 2: Ravens zoom in (zoom mode)

Turn 3: (hover mode) squads dis-embark - can declare charge?

 

So this means the earliest my Stormraven carried squads can get into combat is turn 3? Unless I chuck in some JP squads and Skies of Blood them out in turn 2?

 

This may be a problem as I really want my DC in combat asap....

[Pathstrider]

A couple of questions for everyone considering Skies of Blood:

 

1) What's the point of deploying jump pack troops using Skies of Blood when you could just Deepstike them anyway? You're losing the reroll from DoA and you're restricitng the area of the board you can deploy to. About the only reason I can see is that you could deploy a unit with a Dreadnought to support it but...

2) Don't Dreadnoughts have to take a dangerous terrain test if they deploy via SoB, and if they fail that doesn't this immobilise them? I know it's only a 1 in 6 chance, but you're essentially risking the whole point of the Dreadnought.

 

These things lead me to think that the best way to use a Stormraven is to zoom on (ideally on turn 2, reserves roll willing) and concentrate their firepower on any enemy flyers. The next turn you really have to switch to Hover mode to deploy units - and these units should be ones that don't have the mobility to keep up but benefit from it being an assault vehicle (Assault Terminators, Death Company without Jump packs, Dreadnoughts).

 

Mark

[JamesI]

The main reason to use Skies of Blood in my mind is the option to decide to drop the turn the raven appears from reserve or to drop out later if I want to.

[Pathstrider]

So quick question. I plan on running 2 Stormravens, one with non-jump-pack DC, Chaplain/Lemartes + Furioso Dred, 2nd with Assault Termies + Libby, lotta points I know...

Anyway so if I've got it correct it would go like this:

 

Turn 1: Flyers must start in reserve

Turn 2: Ravens zoom in (zoom mode)

Turn 3: (hover mode) squads dis-embark - can declare charge?

 

So this means the earliest my Stormraven carried squads can get into combat is turn 3? Unless I chuck in some JP squads and Skies of Blood them out in turn 2?

 

This may be a problem as I really want my DC in combat asap....

Even if they deployed via skies of blood they wouldn't be able to charge until turn 3. The trade off is whether people are shooting at your deployed squad or the squad in the stormraven on turn 2.

[CrimsonMajick]

A couple of questions for everyone considering Skies of Blood:

 

1) What's the point of deploying jump pack troops using Skies of Blood when you could just Deepstike them anyway? You're losing the reroll from DoA and you're restricitng the area of the board you can deploy to. About the only reason I can see is that you could deploy a unit with a Dreadnought to support it but...

2) Don't Dreadnoughts have to take a dangerous terrain test if they deploy via SoB, and if they fail that doesn't this immobilise them? I know it's only a 1 in 6 chance, but you're essentially risking the whole point of the Dreadnought.

 

These things lead me to think that the best way to use a Stormraven is to zoom on (ideally on turn 2, reserves roll willing) and concentrate their firepower on any enemy flyers. The next turn you really have to switch to Hover mode to deploy units - and these units should be ones that don't have the mobility to keep up but benefit from it being an assault vehicle (Assault Terminators, Death Company without Jump packs, Dreadnoughts).

 

Why not just include a Locator Beacon on the SR?

 

The Locator Beacon states that "If a unit wishes to deploy via Deep Strike and chooses to do so within 6" of a model carrying a locator beacon, the it won't scatter."

 

SoB states "Nominate any point over which the Stormraven moved over and deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point. If the unit scatters, every model must immediately take a Dangerous Terrain test."

 

Seem pretty straightforward to me. You still don't get to assault until Turn 3 (at best), but you also remain more survivable than going to hover mode.

 

My only question is can you SoB AS the SR moves, or do you have to finish moving the SR and then declare where each squad was jumping out. Semantics, but important if you use a Locator Beacon.

 

For the record, I also hate the term "Zoom".

[BloodReavers]

Ok, I'll run through this again. At the BEGINNING of any Movement Phase...

 

Sorry Shortysl, I believe you are incorrect.

 

page 81, under the Hover 'Type' heading:

 

"A Flyer with the Hover type must declare whether it is going to Zoom or Hover before it moves each Movement phase"

 

and page 79 Under Disembarking:

 

"If the vehicle had not moved before the unit disembarked, the vehicle can then move normally."

 

There is nothing about automatically keeping the same movement from the previous turn unless otherwise stated in the Flier section of the rulebook. Also there is nothing that states that you must declare the movement type at the beginning of the phase other than when it is coming on from reserves, as that is done before the model is placed at the beginning of the phase.

 

Therefore, Zoom 36 inches up the board, fire 4 weapons. Evade if you have to. During the next turn movement phase, disembark unit(s) from the flier, then Zoom once more with the flier, firing snap shots if you evaded. The disembarked unit(s) can assault.

[Black_Sky]

You cannot disembark from a flyer using zoom, unless by using skies of blood or similar special rules.

[BloodReavers]

Agreed Black_Sky, in the fact that a Flyer using zoom has moved over 6 inches already. Do you have a page number that specifically says a unit cannot disembark on the turn that a Flyer uses Zoom? I've looked through Transport and Flyer section and I don't see anything other than the usual 6 inch restriction.

 

Edit: page 80, models cannot embark upon, or disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.

[Black_Sky]

Page 80. It's under the "limited manouvrability blurb, in non-bolded text.

[BloodReavers]

page 80, models cannot embark upon, or disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.

 

But since the Flyer hasn't moved yet when you disembark the unit, that clause doesn't come into effect unless its after the Flyer has performed a Zoom move. Other vehicle restrictions note that you cannot Ram/Tank Shock from a vehicle on the turn that a unit disembarked or embarked. It says nothing about disembarking on the TURN (emphasis mine) that a Flyer Zoomed.

 

And as a side note, you can embark on a transport which then goes flat out (24 inches for us fast tanks!). You just can't Tank Shock/Ram on the same turn. In the same spirit, before the Flyer has moved, you can embark onto, or from a Flyer, which then can Zoom and go Flat Out.

 

I'm sure this will be FAQed to say on the turn a Flyer Zooms, but until then, it is RAW.

[Black_Sky]

A flyer is always zooming.

 

When it is not zooming it is either dead or hovering. Hover 'type' on page 81.

 

Also, going by your interpretation. I can always fire normal bs shots at a flyer, since zooming is only in it's own turn. I can also assault it, since zooming is not carried over between turns.

[BloodReavers]

I think you are coming off as a little insulting. I have backed all of my statements with quotations from the rulebook. I never once said that it is only zooming in its own turn. If anything, one can infer that a Zooming Flyer Zooms until the beginning of the next movement phase. When you go to move the model, you then declare what it will do until the beginning of the next movement phase.

 

A Flyer is a model with the Vehicle rules, subset type Flyer. If you disembark from a vehicle and the vehicle hasn't moved, it then can move normally. For a Flyer this means at that time it declares if it is going to move as a Hover or Zoom. If the vehicle has moved, you are limited to the usual disembarkation rules, under 6 inches if a Fast Skimmer, none if it has Zoomed. Skies of Blood overrides the Zooming Flyer disembarkation rule. Note that it goes into effect after it has moved, not before.

 

Lets take another vehicle as an example. I move 12 inches in a Land Raider. I cannot disembark from the Land Raider during that movement phase as I have gone over 6 inches. This is limitation placed on disembarkation from the Vehicle during the same movement phase. However, on my next movement phase, before the vehicle has moved, I can disembark the unit inside and the vehicle can then move 12 if it so wishes. I can move 6 inches in the Land Raider, then disembark. The previous movement phase's speed has no bearing on disembarkation rules for the next movement phase.

 

The only difference between the Land Raider and a Flyer for disembarkation purposes is that before you move a Flyer you must declare its movement type. This is the same as saying "I'll move this Land Raider so many inches." before you move it. After a Flyer has performed a Zoom move, in that same movement phase, a unit cannot disembark. It specifically says on page 79 Under Disembarking:

 

"If the vehicle had not moved before the unit disembarked, the vehicle can then move normally."

 

Until they FAQ the rulebook and change the statement to say "A unit cannot disembark or embark on the same turn a Flyer Zooms." then you can before the Flyer moves. Also, I'm willing to be proven wrong, but prove me wrong with facts and quotations, not insults.

[himkano]

page 80, models cannot embark upon, or disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.

 

But since the Flyer hasn't moved yet when you disembark the unit, that clause doesn't come into effect unless its after the Flyer has performed a Zoom move. Other vehicle restrictions note that you cannot Ram/Tank Shock from a vehicle on the turn that a unit disembarked or embarked. It says nothing about disembarking on the TURN (emphasis mine) that a Flyer Zoomed.

 

And as a side note, you can embark on a transport which then goes flat out (24 inches for us fast tanks!). You just can't Tank Shock/Ram on the same turn. In the same spirit, before the Flyer has moved, you can embark onto, or from a Flyer, which then can Zoom and go Flat Out.

 

I'm sure this will be FAQed to say on the turn a Flyer Zooms, but until then, it is RAW.

 

RAW say you cannot embark on or disembark from zooming flyer. If you flyer was zooming last turn, then it is "zooming" until you decide how to move it this turn. You can't ram a vehicle, and then go flat out, and say, "I could Tank Shock during the movement phase, because I hadn't gone flat out yet," and you can't disembark and then zoom, and say "I wasn't zooming then" was your vehicle magically frozen in time? Did it stall out and crash? Or was it zooming the whole turn, and you just hadn't moved it yet, because you can only move 1 model at a time.

 

I play BA and GK, so I am not trying to screw us over, but if your interpretation was true, there wouldn't even be a rule like this, it would simply say "If you are going to disembark from a vehicle with zoom, you must do so before moving the flyer."

 

Also, there are no "flyer" transports, that do not also have hover (at least not that I can find), as this how you are supposed to unload troops.

 

You are right, that you could try to argue RAW, because not everything I said is explicitly spelled out in the rulebook (specifically the "zooming until you declare you are not"), but people here would refuse to play with you if you tried. (re-reading before posting, I just want to be clear that this is not a personal attack; I am not advocating boycotting any players)

[BloodReavers]

You can't ram a vehicle, and then go flat out, and say, "I could Tank Shock during the movement phase, because I hadn't gone flat out yet,"

 

I understand RAI before you move the model you declare it will Hover, the vehicle slows down, either hovering instantly on the spot with 0 movement (and no jink save, yikes!), up to 6 and disembarking, or up to 12 as any fast skimmer.

 

The Tank Shock argument doesn't apply, as it specifically says "the same turn" and one event would occur after the other and that one event excludes the other from later happening. There are several instances in the rulebook where it mentions "the same turn" as something else happens. When it comes to Zooming Flyers there is no statement that says "the same turn". That being said, I'm willing to bet money that they will FAQ it to say "units cannot disembark/embark on the same turn as a Flyer Zooms."

 

If anything the part where the vehicle can move normally if it hasn't moved after a unit disembarks means my statement is permissible.

[SevenExxes]

Page 80 BRB: "Finally, models cannont embark upon, or disembark from, a Zooming flyer"

 

Blood Angels FAQ: Page 38 – Stormraven Gunships, Skies of Blood.

Change the first sentence to read: “If the Stormraven has

moved more than 6", passengers can still disembark, but they

must do so as follows.” (enter Skies of Blood rules here)

 

So if you move more than 6" and less than 18" the Stormraven goes into Hover Mode and becomes a fast skimmer. If it moves more than 18" it's a Zooming Flyer. Any distance over 6" uses the Skies of Blood disembarkation rule.

[BloodReavers]

So if you move more than 6" and less than 18" the Stormraven goes into Hover Mode and becomes a fast skimmer. If it moves more than 18" it's a Zooming Flyer. Any distance over 6" uses the Skies of Blood disembarkation rule.

 

But that is for disembarkation after a Flyer has moved. I'm disembarking before the Flyer has moved. It is also incorrect in how to move a Flyer. Declare Hover or Zoom before moving, if Hover, move as Fast Skimmer (up to 12) and all its rules that it entails. Zoom moves as a Zooming Flyer, minimum 18 inches (36 for cruising) during the movement phase.