Black_Sky Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I am sorry if I've come off as confrontational, comes from taking care of two kids at the same times as reading the forums. I can see your point, and I will not argue that your interpretations are within the written rules. But I also believe it is important to play within the intended rules, and not always by the letter. There's a reason I play warhammer and not warmachine. I will explain my own interpretation of the rules like this: Zoom is a mode for flyers. It is always on, and cannot be removed. The rules for zoom states that you must move at least 18 inches, and potentially more. They also state that you cannot be assaulted, shots against you are on overwatch only, you cannot ram or be rammed and passengers can not embark or disembark. Hover is an optional rule. It supercedes the zoom rule, and 'transforms' the vehicle into a fast skimmer. You can now perform all the previous maneuvres, including picking up and dropping of passengers. - The fault in the rulebook is stating that a flyer can usually only make a special kind of move - zoom (p. 80). It makes it appear that a flyer is not zooming untill it moves during it's movement phase. This is where I see your argument stops. I now continue to read the rules. Zooming flyers cannot be rammed, shots against zooming flyers are only resolved as snap shots, zooming flyers can evade, zooming flyers cannot be assaulted. Going by your logic (zoom does not carry over between turns), none of the above rules are in effect if you zoomed your flyer during your turn. This is the essense of my argument. None of the defensive rules mentioned are in effect, if the zoom 'state' does not carry over between phases. A magic errata ruling could easily state "You declare if a flyer with hover mode is zooming at the beginning of your movement phase". - Again, sorry I came of as confrontational. It was not in my intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodReavers Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I appreciate your input, and I agree with you in what a Flyer "should" do. I envision it flying around at top speed, slowing down for a turn to drop off units then blast off next turn to blow something else up. However the group of players that I play with are very specific about the rules. I was looking for something that specifically denies a unit from disembarking before the Flyer moves for the turn and I think I found it. page 80 "Flyers can usually only make a special kind of move called Zoom. Some can also Hover - see page 81." So the default status for a Flyer is Zoom, and you have to declare if it will move into Hover mode, which would allow it to move less than the 6 inches required to disembark for assaults. The wording under "Hover" made it sound like the movement type was unknown until it was declared then moved. I don't even own any Storm Ravens, I might be able to proxy two Valkyries as them. But I do have two Grey Knights players with 3 Storm Ravens usually loaded to the gills with Dreadnaughts, Death Cult Assassins, Crusaders and Librarians and Techmarines with all sorts of fun grenades. As you can see, I have a vested interest in this discussion since that unit has obliterated any unit it charges since the codex was released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sviox Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 The main reason to use Skies of Blood in my mind is the option to decide to drop the turn the raven appears from reserve or to drop out later if I want to. I might have an additional reason to use SoB instead of separately reserving. Can anyone confirm if a transported unit counts for the amount that must be deployed on the table (instead of reserving)? For Drop Pods at least the transported unit is not counted. So if you want an all-reserved army, you could use Storm Ravens to transport your squads. Maybe. Please let me know how you think this rule goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Stormraven is not a dedicated transport, therefore it doesn't work (at least thats what most people here think) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teku Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 So let me get me this straight: we can zoom in on turn 2 for the stormraven, move 36 inch. Next turn 3 we hover and drop our assault units. Assault the enemy! So then we can hover out as ongoing reserve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Sky Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Only zooming flyers can go into ongoing reserves. A hovering flyer is treated as a fast skimmer, therefore losing all flyer zoom abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Ok, I'll run through this again. At the BEGINNING of any Movement Phase... Sorry Shortysl, I believe you are incorrect. page 81, under the Hover 'Type' heading: "A Flyer with the Hover type must declare whether it is going to Zoom or Hover before it moves each Movement phase" Please read all of the previous posts before quoting me, that issue had already been covered way before you bothered. I see where you're going with all of this, any player can find and exploit a loophole if they're looking hard enough eh? A Zooming Flyer will of course carry it over until you decide what to do before it moves again next Turn, It's a Flyer. Of course, you'll argue this by saying that the rules don't specifically state it because you're not interested in the game as a narrative, you're interested in the rules as a means to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorre Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Interesting debate in regards to the zooming and dropping off embarked units. As far as raw goes it looks like you may be right and we can pull off a disembark/assault if we havnt moved the storm raven yet! I do have my doubts about weather this is intended or not though. Might be worth checking in the rules forums! I also don't like the idea of having to debate/prove the rules everytime I attempted to use this maneuver! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leksington Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Based on the results, I for one will never ever again prefer LC over AC... Now the only unfactored benefit of LC is AP2, which means +1 in the damage table. However, AC also has AP2 for rending shots! Since in the calculations the only non-rending penetrating shots possible are against AV10 (0.49 non-rending and 0.59 rending penetrating hits on average) it doesn't look good for the poor lascannon. Several things: 1) Rending: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you get AP2 bonus on Rending vehicle damage rolls. All you get is an extra D3 on the Armor Penetration roll, and get NOTHING on the damage roll. AP2 is for rending wound rolls, not rending Vehicle Damage rolls. But like I said, I might be reading the rending rule incorrectly. 2) I'd keep in mind the mechanics of flying when considering the range of the two weapons. 24" is real short when your zooming flyer has to move at least 18 inches in a straight line with only 1 change of direction at the beginning of the movement. It will be easier to get 2 turns of shooting in 2 turns with the LC than the AC. And that longer range on the first turn could keep you out of range of some of the return fire. Over the course of a game, a flyer with a LC might get significantly more turns of fire than a flyer with an AC. Standard deviation is just a figure to represent the dispersion/expected deviation from given results. It doesn't have any meaningful importance when we're talking about absolute groups of results (i.e. it doesn't matter if a weapon penetrates AV10 with 11 or 15; there is only three result groups: does nothing, glances and penetrates). 3) Yes, the results of an individual trial only has three group. However the distribution you are plotting is the result of several trials. Since the LC is a single shot, your average result is fine (there is no distribution to chart out). But with the AC's 4 shots it is useful to get a distribution of results. What percentage of the time do you whiff completely? What percentage of the time do you cause 4 pens? Where does 68% of your results fall in? Mort is absolutely correct when he suggest that you do further statistical analysis beyond computing the average result. Other than the standard deviation, some particularly useful points on that distribution table are: -What percentage of the time will you cause no pens or glances? -What percentage of the time will your pens and glances add up to 3? You might even want to shift some of your focus away from simply getting pens and glances, and move it towards a minimum desired result is (like a Crew Stunned result on Transports for example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodReavers Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Sorry shortysl, you are incorrect with a few of your statements. Just had a look and I'm right. Page 81 of the Rulebook: A Flyer with the Hover Mode ability must declare which mode it is using at the beginning of it's Movement Phase. Ok, I'll run through this again. At the BEGINNING of any Movement Phase you must declare which movement type your Flyer is using (Zoom or Hover). At the beginning of your Movement Phase you declare which movement type the Flyer is going to use. These statements and quotations are all incorrect and not found in the rulebook. You and Black_Sky had the correct resolution to the claim I postulated, even though a specific line was not quotated, but I found it later. If YOU have read through the previous posts, you would have noticed that I wasn't trying to bend the rules, or find a loophole. I admitted I understood what was intended, but in a tournament, and with some people its "Rules As Written" to the letter. I was proffering discussion on how the disembarking rules and zooming rules interact, because at first glance there seems to be a way disembark units before the Flyer has moved that turn. However, there IS a line "Flyers can usually only make a special kind of move called Zoom. Some can also Hover - see page 81." So the default status for a Flyer is Zoom, and you have to declare if it will change into Hover mode before you move the model. The wording under "Hover" made it sound like the movement type was unknown until it was declared then moved, hence the discussion. There is no "carrying over" involved, there is only Zooming unless changed to Hover, decided when you move the model, NOT at the beginning of the phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Can the rules discussion go to the OR forum? It's pretty much killed this thread for actual knowledge value ;) I still swear by the TL-Plasmacannon on the turret mount, TL-Melta on the hull for a ground attack vehicle. With cover save reduction and targeting models outside cover, machine spiriting the Plasma-cannon onto a unit and taking out a ground vehicle with TL-MM and 2x Bloodstrike seems to be the way to go. By all means TL-Lascannon if you're going for an anti-flyer platform though. With the restriction on hull mounted weaponry (MM and bloodstrikes) being 45 degrees forward, you really need the range on the 360 degree mount to peg a second flyer with machine spirit. The usual pattern for my Storm Raven is zoom entry, all guns blazing. Second turn hover and disembark a Death Company Dread. Anything outside of a DC Dread or Mephiston is really too risky to be left inside a zooming Flyer due the punishing Str 10 hit with no armour saves. Meph just takes a wound on 2+ and the Dread just loses a hull point and ignores and resultant stunned/shakens. That's not to say other units can't enter play from the raven - exploiting the Locator Beacon to disembark a shooty infantry unit on the turn it zooms in through Skies of Blood is very reliable and dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_f Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Can the rules discussion go to the OR forum? It's pretty much killed this thread for actual knowledge value :( I still swear by the TL-Plasmacannon on the turret mount, TL-Melta on the hull for a ground attack vehicle. With cover save reduction and targeting models outside cover, machine spiriting the Plasma-cannon onto a unit and taking out a ground vehicle with TL-MM and 2x Bloodstrike seems to be the way to go. By all means TL-Lascannon if you're going for an anti-flyer platform though. With the restriction on hull mounted weaponry (MM and bloodstrikes) being 45 degrees forward, you really need the range on the 360 degree mount to peg a second flyer with machine spirit. The usual pattern for my Storm Raven is zoom entry, all guns blazing. Second turn hover and disembark a Death Company Dread. Anything outside of a DC Dread or Mephiston is really too risky to be left inside a zooming Flyer due the punishing Str 10 hit with no armour saves. Meph just takes a wound on 2+ and the Dread just loses a hull point and ignores and resultant stunned/shakens. That's not to say other units can't enter play from the raven - exploiting the Locator Beacon to disembark a shooty infantry unit on the turn it zooms in through Skies of Blood is very reliable and dangerous. But doesn't the locator beacon has to be on the table at the start of the turn you want to use it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 John is correct I'm afraid. But with jump infantry its not too dangerous using skies of blood :( I'm not quite sure what to do with termies though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaarl Stormfang Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 Can the rules discussion go to the OR forum? It's pretty much killed this thread for actual knowledge value :) I still swear by the TL-Plasmacannon on the turret mount, TL-Melta on the hull for a ground attack vehicle. With cover save reduction and targeting models outside cover, machine spiriting the Plasma-cannon onto a unit and taking out a ground vehicle with TL-MM and 2x Bloodstrike seems to be the way to go. By all means TL-Lascannon if you're going for an anti-flyer platform though. With the restriction on hull mounted weaponry (MM and bloodstrikes) being 45 degrees forward, you really need the range on the 360 degree mount to peg a second flyer with machine spirit. The usual pattern for my Storm Raven is zoom entry, all guns blazing. Second turn hover and disembark a Death Company Dread. Anything outside of a DC Dread or Mephiston is really too risky to be left inside a zooming Flyer due the punishing Str 10 hit with no armour saves. Meph just takes a wound on 2+ and the Dread just loses a hull point and ignores and resultant stunned/shakens. That's not to say other units can't enter play from the raven - exploiting the Locator Beacon to disembark a shooty infantry unit on the turn it zooms in through Skies of Blood is very reliable and dangerous. Very interesting post. I do definitely think that the practicalities of only being able to pivot once for 90 degrees and having to move 18 inch minimums will have influence on your weapon choices. I wonder how often during games we'll have the choice between being force to zoom off the board and lose a turn of firing or take the risk to hover and set up exactly the shots we need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Ahhh forgot about the Locator beacon being on the board. That changes things a little. In saying that, the only thing to really watch for is the scattering so that one model can't be placed - the Dangerous terrain testing isn't a problem now you can take armor saves against it. Loc beacons are 10 points a pop on drop Pods as well. Yeah every game with my Raven I've gone hover mode after the first turn of entry so far. With the Multimelta and the Bloodstrikes being hull mounted, you don't really have a choice if you want two turns of firing on good targets, plus to disembark the dread of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonMajick Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Ahhh forgot about the Locator beacon being on the board. That changes things a little. In saying that, the only thing to really watch for is the scattering so that one model can't be placed - the Dangerous terrain testing isn't a problem now you can take armor saves against it. Loc beacons are 10 points a pop on drop Pods as well. Any thoughts on how the Loc beacon and zooming would interact with SoB. Specifically, will the LB work for each 'drop' within the SR's path? Or would it only affect the ones who drop at the end of the SR's movement (within 6" of the SR)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Or would it only affect the ones who drop at the end of the SR's movement (within 6" of the SR)? This. No support to say otherwise, I feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_f Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Or would it only affect the ones who drop at the end of the SR's movement (within 6" of the SR)? This. No support to say otherwise, I feel. But if you zoom over the drop pod, you should be able to drop units without scatter if you deploy within 6" of the drop pod. The skies of blood rule dictate that you should choose one point over which the SR has moved. edit: Nevermind, you were not discussing the locator beacon on the drop pod =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I have one question , that has been worrying me for a while. Can flyer such as SR use JINK save against MC's vector strikes? Thank you ~BT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I have one question , that has been worrying me for a while. Can flyer such as SR use JINK save against MC's vector strikes? Thank you ~BT Flyers can use the Evade rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.