6th..... Are jump pack assault marines any good?

[Jorre]

I would like to start a discussion on our favorite troop choice. Jump pack assault marines.

 

Reading snippets of the rules before we got the rule book in our own hands made things look pretty darn good for our favorite mobile troop choice. However now that we know the ins and outs I am finding it very difficult to get to excited about these guys!

 

Hammer of wrath!

First up we heard about hammer of wrath. Which gives us a free I10 hit on the charge. Sounded great! However it wasn't as great as it sounds. You are limited to a move of just 6 if you want to take advantage of this, having to choose between using your packs in either the movement or assault. The attack is also at an unmodified 4 for our marines with no ap. well at least you don't have to roll to hit! Also correct me if I'm wrong, but if you use your packs to assault someone in cover don't we take dangerous terrain tests! I don't see hammer of wrath being very usefull with all these barriers!

 

Furious charge nerf!!!

This really hurts our basic troops who really did rely on it to gain any advantage against other meq units. Good luck taking on our counter charge brothers the space wolves with this on! The +1 str is great, but without the iniative bonus we are in trouble.

 

Over watch!

Combine the iniative nerf with over watch snapfire not only are we now striking at the same time, but we man be loosing guys before we get in combat! Basically instead of us getting the jump on our target they could well be getting the jump on us! Even when we assault!

 

FnP and cover

I think the FnP rules probably work in our favour however the cover reduction is probably going to neutralize this bonus!

 

Basically all this means we are going to take a lot more wounds just getting into combat! Then once we get there with half our troops left we have no iniative bonus and will probably be ineffective due to lack of numbers.

 

There are positives, for example our sargents can take a storm shield and a special weapon, making the

Great for accepting challenges. 2 pistols on the sarge sounds like fun to!

 

With the buffs to tactical marines manuverability they are looking better and better to me!

 

Anyone else put much thought into this?

[Glendor]

I am looking at running tactical marines for objectives and cover fire and then use death company and sanguinary guard as the main assault forces.

[Jorre]

I should also mention that only half your army can start In reserve. Which limits our deep strike options

[Joasht]

I actually think a problem for the RAS would be the indirect nerfing of our sergeants, as it is now easier to single him out via challenges. How big a problem it truly is will only be discernable after playtesting, but given that he is our only source of non-IC special melee weapons in the squad, it might be a fairly big issue.

[Jorre]

Having your sarg taken out in a duel could be a blessing or a curse. He only has 1 wound so if he can challenge a powerfull ic like draigo he would be saving the rest of your squad from taking a lot more wounds!

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

well, with sergeants, i think you can tool them to face similar opponents and just accept that they will lose against most IC except for a few, unusual cases and the occasional lucky break. we also are lucky because we can have a number of other IC's running around to attach to our assault units to help with this, or at least double up on power weapons so that we can play the challenge game against MEQ opponents by challenging their sergeant, thereby limiting their ability to inflict wounds on us with their pw and pf, while our SHP cuts down his basic troopers.

 

but against SW, we will be in trouble, their cavalry will move faster than us, and get those HoW hits every time and with fleet they are going to get those long charges before we do, while their squads will be using over-watch and counter-attack against us, then beating us up with hidden PW, while being able to pull the same trick on us with WGPL's.

[JamesI]

Well, the RAS are not as good as I hoped I think. The ability to only use the jump packs to move or assault hurts.

[Atlantic]

I'm also in agreement that our jumpers really aren't that awesome anymore.

 

The way I see it right now, we are an assault army that really isn't that good at assault.

 

I think we are going to have to rely on other units besides jump pack assault troops. I think there is a place for them in most lists, but you probably want to use them as counter charging units against meq equivalent.

 

 

However, I do think the average size of game is going to increase, because of allies and terrain being in on the FOC chart.

 

Around here we played 1850 typically, I see it probably going up to 2500.

 

I haven't put the points together, and I'm still not sure about the wargear, but I'm thinking of a list on the order of.

 

2500 points. (Remember once the game goes over 2k points you get a whole other FOC so you can sprinkle in some other stuff, though I didn't do that here)

 

FOC 1

 

Tycho or Seth

Librarian in Terminator Armour, maybe an Epistolary

 

Sanguinary Priest x 2 or 3 - not sure about wargear, probably a foot slogger, a jumper, and a terminator

Librarian Dreadnaught

Tacitcal Terminators - unsure of # or equipment, probably a Cyclone Missle Launcher

 

Tac Squad x 10 - Plasma Gun, Multi Melta, PW, Rhino

Tac Squad x 10 - Plasma Gun, Multi Melta, PW, Rhino

Assault Squad x 10 w/ Jump Packs, 2 Melta Guns, Power Fist

Assault Squad x 10 without Jump Packs, 2 Melta Guns, Power Fist, Land Raider of some type

Scouts x 5 or 10 with Sniper Rifles and a Missle Launcher

 

Multi Melta Attack Bikes x 2

Multi Melta Attack Bikes x 2

 

Dev Squad x 5, 4 Missle Launchers

Dev Squad x 5, 4 Missle Launchers

Dev Squad x 5, 4 Lascannons

 

 

 

As far as synergy goes, the Jump Pack Assault Squad is a mobile support unit.

 

Some of these units will have to go though as I'm sure this is over 2500 by a bunch.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Ugh, it's frustrating... I switched to BA because I loved the idea of an all jumpers list. I wanted to get away from RAS being a mobile support unit like in C:SM and get them more as a shock assault unit. Death Co is still kind of viable, but their jump packs are hella-expensive. I'm having trouble seeing the positives of 6th ed in terms of my tastes(so I hear sanguinary guard can't get power lances?), but it's still too early to make a sound judgement.

[xAegisx]

if it makes you feel better, you arent alone, ive played blood angels since dirt was invented, (they were my first army waaaaaay back when i was but a kid)

and for the life of me, i cant seem to make a list i actually like, i had a full sang guard army, which got nerfed, my DoA jumpers, again nerfed, and my mech contingent, which is going back in the case, cause necrons grow like weeds around here. ;)

[knife&fork]

-=pain is an illusion of the senses, despair an illusion of the mind=-

 

I'm sure space wolves are going to even more popular in 6th, at least at first. But remember how nob bikers, seer councils or IG gunlines were considered unbeatable? We figured out ways to deal with those and the same thing will happen again.

Revisit your codex, consider new tweaks, tactics and underused units. Most importantly get a a lot of games under your belt and try to learn from every mistake and loss.

 

 

Ok, back on topic. So far I have used hammer of wrath a grand total of 0 times. Speed is life for jumpers and I haven't found myself in a situation where I want to give up the 12" move. I think it's much more useful for bikers, which will see a lot more use in this ed.

 

The jumping, shooting focused assault squad is better now for a number of reasons. I've used them in 5th too but now one of these is almost an autoinclude if I want to go infantry heavy. 10 guys with 2 plasma guns and a sergeant with dual plasma pistols is what I'm looking at. Rhinos and razors are worse now so always being able quickly redeploy is great. Not to mention you are not slowed by intervening units or terrain.

 

EDIT: One thing that has changed since last ed is that glances and pens now count for combat resolution, and that's for all kinds of vehicles, not just walkers as it was before. While combat resolution isn't as important as it once was, it still gives you a chance to win and break a superior CC unit by using a nearby vehicle and the 3" pile to make sure that they won't get a lot of attacks in while you hammer the unlucky metal box into dust.

[Robbie1984]

My biggest concern about the new rules and our RaS is actually the precision strikes etc, from why I understand a roll of 6 on shooting and CC to hit means our sarges and even priests can be picked out.

 

For this reason alone I'm very tempted to go for storm shields on the sarge, but my worry is the priest! We rely on them for our FC/FNP bubble, and I can see them dropping like flies. They can't have Shields, and I'm not 100% sure if LOS can be used on these precision strikes?

[vahouth]

My biggest concern about the new rules and our RaS is actually the precision strikes etc, from why I understand a roll of 6 on shooting and CC to hit means our sarges and even priests can be picked out.

 

For this reason alone I'm very tempted to go for storm shields on the sarge, but my worry is the priest! We rely on them for our FC/FNP bubble, and I can see them dropping like flies. They can't have Shields, and I'm not 100% sure if LOS can be used on these precision strikes?

 

They can still use a Look out Sir roll on 2+ I think .

[Robbie1984]

Ah that's not so bad then!! I think armies that are based on RAS will have to focus on one section of the opposin army more than ever now, work on one flank and rely on weight of attacks to get the job done. Do long range support tanks still have a role now that mech has taken a bit of a nerf?

[vahouth]

At least in my lists they do. As fats vehicles AutoLas Predators can now move 12" fire both Lascannons and Snap the Autocannon.

[knife&fork]

Do long range support tanks still have a role now that mech has taken a bit of a nerf?

 

It's mainly assault vehicles or anything that strays within the 36"-24" killzone for dangerous things like Gauss that have taken a hit. Things that can keep their distance are not as affected or in some cases even better. A glance will never silence your guns now, so only pens count.

[SnorriSnorrison]

I would like to start a discussion on our favorite troop choice. Jump pack assault marines.

 

Reading snippets of the rules before we got the rule book in our own hands made things look pretty darn good for our favorite mobile troop choice. However now that we know the ins and outs I am finding it very difficult to get to excited about these guys!

 

I'm all in.

 

Hammer of wrath!

First up we heard about hammer of wrath. Which gives us a free I10 hit on the charge. Sounded great! However it wasn't as great as it sounds. You are limited to a move of just 6 if you want to take advantage of this, having to choose between using your packs in either the movement or assault. The attack is also at an unmodified 4 for our marines with no ap. well at least you don't have to roll to hit! Also correct me if I'm wrong, but if you use your packs to assault someone in cover don't we take dangerous terrain tests! I don't see hammer of wrath being very usefull with all these barriers!

 

I wouldn't see HoW as a linebreaker, it's a bonus. And if you're not only playing against marines(which you should, it's awesome) automatic S4 hits are quite fearsome for many opponents.

The thing with the new JP ruling is actually not that bad as everybody thinks. You have to think ahead a turn or two, but you have to in chess as well and people win games there. So to explain this further: you jump next to a building and move into it, out of LoS or just into cover. Next turn, walk out and activate your JP on the charge. No dangerous terrain and still the chance of getting into assault range. Not that bad me thinks. :D

 

In 5th, you had a guaranteed effective charge range of 18", now this is quite illusional unless you have 'lucky' dice. :D

 

 

Furious charge nerf!!!

This really hurts our basic troops who really did rely on it to gain any advantage against other meq units. Good luck taking on our counter charge brothers the space wolves with this on! The +1 str is great, but without the iniative bonus we are in trouble.

Yeah this is crap. The initiative bonus was essential to victory against terminators w/pw or just normal marines. There is no good thing to find here, you're right.

 

Over watch!

Combine the iniative nerf with over watch snapfire not only are we now striking at the same time, but we man be loosing guys before we get in combat! Basically instead of us getting the jump on our target they could well be getting the jump on us! Even when we assault!

Yes, but a unit can only overwatch once a turn, so if you charge with more than one unit(one distraction unit for example and one dedicated assault unit) you don't lose too much of your advantage. Other than that, yeah, it's pretty much BS. But we can do it, as well. ;)

 

 

 

FnP and cover

I think the FnP rules probably work in our favour however the cover reduction is probably going to neutralize this bonus!

No, why? Yeah, cover is reduced to a 5+, but now we can use FnP against most of the things which ignored our armour in 5th! Plasma for example will be big this editionand we have two 5+ saves to get around it in the best case. Better than a single 4+, I think. :D

 

 

Basically all this means we are going to take a lot more wounds just getting into combat! Then once we get there with half our troops left we have no iniative bonus and will probably be ineffective due to lack of numbers.

Maybe in the beginning, but we will find ways around it. Probably the biggest thing in 6th that it's all about synergy now, spamming units of any kind will not work as well as in 5th. No DoA, no Rzrspam or other mech-builds. Kinda pity for DoA, which had some flavour, but BA are also a codex chapter so using other units will become more common and will help to cope with the new rules for overwatch, FC and FnP. We will prevail.

 

There are positives, for example our sargents can take a storm shield and a special weapon, making the

Great for accepting challenges. 2 pistols on the sarge sounds like fun to!

 

With the buffs to tactical marines manuverability they are looking better and better to me!

 

Anyone else put much thought into this?

 

Tacticals have become what they should be, tactical. It's a great step forward, however we will need our fast elements in a list, and assault marines are the no.1 unit right there. Cheap, lots of bodies and flexible weaponry. These two units will complement each other more than ever before, so it's a win-win from my PoV.

 

 

 

 

Snorri

[Drunken Angel]

I play all DOA I have been trying to build something ... anything like a full DOA list and its just a mess.

 

Having to accomodate that 50% reserve rule

Losing the FC initiative buff

Having a jump pack that runs out of petrol halfway to the battel totally sucks

Losing AP2 killiness on IC's and weapons.

Losing high I low AP IC

I did not want to play anything but DOA. I could just run DOA anyway stuff the 50% limit I could deal with it but the nerfing on JPs, ICs, AP and initiative is really bad. To make it even worse other codex fast units did not get nerfed. BA dont play long combats flailing at the enemy for 2-3 turns in CC. We kill stuff and move on.

I may try storm ravens but everyone has those now.

I meant to try and find something good in 6th Ed for DOA but its getting harder the more I look into the detail. Mech is in even a worse position than DOA though.

 

What do Blood angels do again ? Death Company and Sanguinary Guard are fine but the other support elements I have to work on somehow no real clear lists beyond that ATM

[Robbie1984]

This isn't all doom and gloom for us.

 

Yes the changes mean our assault squads aren't as punchy as they were in 5th, but we do still have a lot o advantages over other armies:

 

We do still have a highly mobile, objective scoring army if that's the route you want to take.

 

Our death company now does hit harder than before, and we can now dictate what they attack.

 

Stormravens are at the moment the only AV12 flier in the game, an AFAIK it's only us and grey nights that can take more than one of these, and they can bring a lot of pain with the amount of weapon options they have.

 

They might not be as effective as before, but we do still have fast vehicles and transports, a lot of which have PotMS

 

Easy access to FNP, which now being effective against almost anything, makes our guys more survivable IMO

 

We can field an entire army of basically terminators with jump packs if you field Dante, which with one of his rules makes killing the opposition warlord easier.

 

With this many positives I really do refuse to believe that BA have been given a beating with the new rules, it's all about adapting!!

[Drunken Angel]

I am writing from a DOA point of veiw, jump packs are still great but I will have to adapt and change because our strengths are shifting. Our assault marines are less assault marines and more something else but its hard to define what yet.

[Robbie1984]

I am writing from a DOA point of veiw, jump packs are still great but I will have to adapt and change because our strengths are shifting. Our assault marines are less assault marines and more something else but its hard to define what yet.

 

One thought I've had for them is to use them as the distraction unit, combat squad them and using them to do the initial charge, soak up the over watch fire, then send the death company straight in behind them. How effective this would be I don't know, but it reduces the chances of the death company taking losses!

[Drunken Angel]

RAS are very expensive cannon fodder they are also your only objective grabbers apart from Sanguinary Guard with Dante in a jumppack heavy type list. Its a no brainer for your opponent kill the troops and pull back, remember units can break off from combat.

[Drunken Angel]

Maybe we are looking at this the wrong way it might not be viable with pure BA. What about a combined list with another codex that still allows 50%, obviously the BA part of the list in reserve and uses some high power shooting units on the board. I hate to say this but maybe consider using something from SW IG or GK. Termies are gold now and GK have some with nasty rending shooters IG heavy weapons squads ?

 

Me I will stay with all BA its my army if I want GK I will run a GK list and its likely there will be plenty of games where my regulars mates agree to just play only our respective codex's

 

I am still thinking Storm Ravens (with DC or Termies) and shooting baals/bikes as the half I start on the board. The DOA objective grabbers start coming on turn 2 onwards.

This will probably will have a low model count but its worth a try.

[Robbie1984]

Maybe we are looking at this the wrong way it might not be viable with pure BA. What about a combined list with another codex that still allows 50%, obviously the BA part of the list in reserve and uses some high power shooting units on the board. I hate to say this but maybe consider using something from SW IG or GK. Termies are gold now and GK have some with nasty rending shooters IG heavy weapons squads ?

 

Me I will stay with all BA its my army if I want GK I will run a GK list and its likely there will be plenty of games where my regulars mates agree to just play only our respective codex's

 

I am still thinking Storm Ravens (with DC or Termies) and shooting baals/bikes as the half I start on the board. The DOA objective grabbers start coming on turn 2 onwards.

This will probably will have a low model count but its worth a try.

 

I do agree with most of that, I hate the idea of using allies unless it's an actual team game. One thing to bear in mind with the ravens is that they have to start the game in reserve, so that's one or two heavy support slots not on the table first turn. Personally I'm thinking dual raven and a vindicator, but I'm also thinkin about a whirlwind, not had much experience or heard a lot on these though.

 

You do also have the option of takin some razorbacks kitted for hanging back and shooting, they are dedicated transports, but they do add some punch for first turn shooting while the ravens are off the table, and could cover an advancing RAS squad? It does deviate slightly from the DoA list, but unfortunately it might be one of the only options.

[Drunken Angel]

Hell I had forgotten about the reserve raven rule it makes it harder because that means the jumpers start on the board and weather fire and if you dont have any models on the board at end of game turn you are lost. Maybe a Death company tough nut jump pack unit with a libbie and shield. I thought of a rhino but if you start inside the bloody thing its T3 before you can assault anything. Past tactics were dont hang around get stuck into CC, the Rhino does not fit that anymore. I think night fighting has some influence in the scenarios here.

With DC you get your 3+ armour save or a 5+ cover save then you get your 5+ FNP. DC are fearless as well it might hold together okay even at 35 pts per base model.

So everything shoots the crap out of your DC and you hope they dont all die till you get a SR maybe on T2 with the cavalry in it.

2 Devi squads at the back with the DC shooting away may dilute the incoming. That or drop pods of Sternguard turning up.

I wonder how many people will take terrain its pretty expensive and cuts down on other lists model count.