Chairman_woo Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 So as many must now be realising, the reclusiarch is no longer an auto include over a captain due to the crozius (tho I do think the reclusiarch still very much has his place). If you want a lot of ap3 or ap2 attacks from a non special charachter, libby and captain are all we get. And with all the dueling going on we are very rarely going to want our libbies to be wasting time risking life and limb in a duel when they could be doing far more productive (and less perilous) things elsewhere.... Sometimes were going to need someone to step up and smash the skull of whichsoever fool has had the temerity, the gall, the sheer precipitous pomposity to challenge a member of the glorious and noble sons of sanguinius to single combat!!! But who will step forwards to rebuke this egregious fool? Who will uphold the honour of the chapter and refuse any besmirchment of its honoured warriors.....? ......Captain freaking thunder & lightning thats who! ...3+sv? too bad buddy Captain T&L's going to dice your ass with his rerolly fingers of electric doom! ...Whats that terminator armour? POW Pimp hammer to your face! etc. etc. In all seriousness tho we probably need to start looking at captains in a new light again with all this dueling to worry about. Terminator armour is the only way hes getting a 2+sv (I know I know :)..) which is now worth its weight in gold vs most things. My first though was twin claws as this was the best way to run him in 5th, but then felt a strange and terrible divination coalescing in my mind "Whats this you need only two weapons with the specialist weapon USR to get the +1A....? THRONE ABOVE!" For only 25pts over the terminator armour itself you can have a hammer and claw (or if you want to be cheap and lame a fist & claw for 5pts less but then its not Thunder & Lightning!). 165pt man, 2+sv, 4++ invun, 4(5) Hammer or lightning claw attacks per round (with I5 for the claw!) Given your only paying 10pts over just a pair of claws, and that tayloring to different challenge opponents seems super super handy I'm thinking "Captain Thunder & lightning" has tigerblood, adonis DNA and might just possibly be tired of pretending hes not a totally bitchin rock star from mars! Is he "winning"? What do you chaps think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorre Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Chaplins can be upgraded with a fist. So I would still take them over a captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlantic Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 I like it. Can you make him look like Charlie Sheen too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman_woo Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 Chaplins can be upgraded with a fist. So I would still take them over a captain True but to get the 2+sv terminator armour & a fist is going to run you 10pts more than captain T&L, you have 1 less attack and no option to keep the I5 in combat (not even with the ap- pistol as you get a SB instead). Reclusiarch is going to be best keeping the crozius & Power armour and relying on brute force & volume of wounds to dish out lots of saves in concert with the unit he's buffing IMHO. Tho you could always have a 2nd charachter (sgt. or priest or whatever) tooled to eat challenges so he can munch the unit with his fist but that defeats the object of my original premise. Sometimes your going to want someone to eat a challenge and most charachter models you will face have to choose between I1 & ap2 or ap3 and normal I. Captain T&L fears not such uncertanties and is ready to stand his ground against (almost) any opponent! Sorry Cant help myself tonight ^_^, there may be other & better ways to do what I'm thinking about here but right now the much maligned BA captain is looking pretty good to me. Certainly if your going to run CC terminators he seems like a wonderfull compliment now especially when you can palm the challenge off to the poor sgt. if something you actually dont want to fight commes along (not that Captain T&L fears anything but the adeptus rehabilitatius!!!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drial87 Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Tycho is boss... that is all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman_woo Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 ^ Appologies you said chaplain, in which case were running 20pts less than the captain. but with only 2W the terminator armour seems alot less worth while so I imagine youd want to just give him a fist for a nice cheep and cheerfull 115pts. But this seems like its only going to be usefull for attempting semi suicidal symultaneous death duels with powerfull I1 opponents (which to his credit he's pretty good at), or just contributing to the units attacks but thats getting off topic. I agree he's going to be more efficient in his role as described above as dueling is risky busness and 115pts is often worth the risk to ID an enemy IC, but his weaknesses speak for themselves under different circumstances I feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman_woo Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 Tycho is boss... that is all Totally agree he's chuck norris in artificier armour but there are many reasons not to choose him: He cant deep strike He wont fit in aestheticaly with a terminator squad (He totally looks like he belongs in a sterguard squad regardless of his rules) I will get acused (rightly) of "gaming " the rules (not necessarily bad but a factor non the less) You don't always want to run a Special charachter You already have tycho and want a 2nd superbadass to do some extra curb stomping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 I'm taking a Captain with JP, Storm shield and Thunderhammer into a few games on Wednesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Buy the Red Wake model from Forge World. Buy your Captain terminator armour, a lightning claw and a chainfist. ...............? Profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Captain in Terminator Armor with Power Sword and Storm Bolter is good enough for duels. The TH is overkill. If you stick him with a Terminator Squad you'll have enough THs/Fists. I think the best HQ's are: Captain, Thunder Hammer, Bike Captain, Terminator Armor, Power Weapon, Storm Bolter Reclusiarch, Crozius, Power Fist Tycho, Awesomeness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman_woo Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 Captain in Terminator Armor with Power Sword and Storm Bolter is good enough for duels. The TH is overkill. If you stick him with a Terminator Squad you'll have enough THs/Fists. I think the best HQ's are: Captain, Thunder Hammer, Bike Captain, Terminator Armor, Power Weapon, Storm Bolter Reclusiarch, Crozius, Power Fist Tycho, Awesomeness Basic Termy captain seems good I agree and if he went up against Captain T&L or anyone else that would just turn him into man paste we'd send sgt. bulletcatcher (with his handy TH&SS). With you on that but for a mere 1/6th of his cost extra we get 1 extra attack and reroll wounds, and furthermore the option of the hammer which adds alot of flexibility. seems like it might be worth 25pts to me anyway... I'm totally down with your other loadouts save maybe the reclusiarch who I feel might be better just maximising his s7 general purpose wounds. Hammer on a bike in particular is a stroke of genius, no more worrying about getting ID'd back by opponents fists & hammers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daybreak Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Chaplins can be upgraded with a fist. So I would still take them over a captain That is awesome! I never noticed that before. Maybe time to remodel my dudes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Great idea. Love the Thunder and Lightning concept! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlund Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 If you're attaching your HQ to an Assault Squad you take the Reclusiarch w/ Power Fist, Crozius, and Jump Pack and a Sgt. w/ Power Weapon. You own all challenges. The Captain w/ Claw, Fist, and Jump Pack is a 5 point savings and you lose Fearless and Liturgies or Blood. The Thunder and Lightning Captain seems like the solid choice in Terminator Armor, while the Reclusiarch seems more efficient with Jump Packs. - Marty Lund Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastellan Kong Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Chaplins can be upgraded with a fist. So I would still take them over a captain That is awesome! I never noticed that before. Maybe time to remodel my dudes... You should note that the Crozius is AP4 so MEQ will get their saves. So it's not quite the same as the Captain in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman_woo Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 Chaplins can be upgraded with a fist. So I would still take them over a captain That is awesome! I never noticed that before. Maybe time to remodel my dudes... You should note that the Crozius is AP4 so MEQ will get their saves. So it's not quite the same as the Captain in this case. If your tooling for Jump infantry I think the others may be right that a reclusiarch/chaplain still seems like the better bet. Hammer and tongs (claws) starts to look like a points sink with only a 3+ save as it really limits the opponents you can confidently stand up to and expect an acceptable chance of loosing. Buffing the unit he's with helps counterballance this for the chappys wheras the captain brings nothing to the table but his own ability to kick arse. So the captain is only going to make sense (other than for theme/aesthetics) when hes doing something the relusiarch can't match. In the role of adaptable dueler captain T&L seems to be able to out class virtually everyone I can think of in the codex. Tycho is badass but only S4(5) with 3(4) attacks so he cant ID multiwound IC's (but can be ID'd back), Reclusiarch with a 2+sv can't match either the attacks or the ap3 & reroll wounds. Both Dante and asteroth are significantly more expensive (& neither has eternal warrior either) & have jump packs so you wouldnt want them with terminators. Bike captain with hammer still only has the 3+sv and so the T5 is only going to be awesome vs fist & hammer charachters who force you down to 4++ anyway. Basic sword captain lacks the adaptability and is dangerously close in pts for the extra T&L brings to combat Something I missed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Blood Angel Captains can take a storm shield right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman_woo Posted July 4, 2012 Author Share Posted July 4, 2012 Blood Angel Captains can take a storm shield right? Yes you can, seems at first like it would be worth serious consideration for a hammer captain to run the ID gauntlet I suppose. Tho you already have the 4++ from the iron halo so 5th ed logic always suggested this wasnt worth the extra pts to improve it by one. In a one on one duel where ID fists & hammers are going to be commonplace the 3++ seems like it might be worth paying an extra 10pts over T&L and forgoe the extra attack and I5 attacks to improve your chances of surviving I suppose. But the problem is Sgt. punchbag with a hammer & shield puts out almost as many attacks at s8(9), which also inflict ID to T4, and he is also just one failed 3++ save away from being patte when fighting his enemy of choice (multiwound t4 I1 IC's) . Sgt. punchbag costs 45pts, captain with shield & terminator armour costs 175, & with power armour he's still 150! Captain T&L gets around this drawback by being very flexible & pouring a load of high quality attacks taylored to the units armour save into the unit if you decide that the odds favour using sgt. punchbag for the challenge, or alternatively shreds 3+ save charachters himself. And then if/when Sgt. punchbag dies you still have captain T&L for subsequent challenges. ^ I hope that was reasonably coherent I'm rather tired... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascalnz Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 making cheesy use of the specialist weapon rule. a thunder hammer/lightning claw terminator armour wearing captain. expensive, but just about the best challenger out there, and well, just really versatile. i5 with 5 attacks hoopefully str5 re roll to wound, or if up against 2+ or tanks strength nine ap2 hammer... still 5 attacks:) It aint much but it's the best I can come up with:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 making cheesy use of the specialist weapon rule.a thunder hammer/lightning claw terminator armour wearing captain. expensive, but just about the best challenger out there, and well, just really versatile. i5 with 5 attacks hoopefully str5 re roll to wound, or if up against 2+ or tanks strength nine ap2 hammer... still 5 attacks:) It aint much but it's the best I can come up with:) I see you and raise you a Captain with Thunderhammer on Bike. Even better, a Captain with Thunderhammer and Storm Shield on Bike. He rides with his knees, like any real man should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Merged the two captain threads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I first thought the rec was wrecked, and he has suffered, but to my mind, his real power remains rerolls. If i said, your hammernatorss can take a 130pt banner that lets them rerolls hits..... His 5 hammernators look like nine dead teqs. Not a bad trade off for a fisted reclusiarch. Enemy hq is then pummeled to death next turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman_woo Posted July 4, 2012 Author Share Posted July 4, 2012 I first thought the rec was wrecked, and he has suffered, but to my mind, his real power remains rerolls. If i said, your hammernatorss can take a 130pt banner that lets them rerolls hits..... His 5 hammernators look like nine dead teqs. Not a bad trade off for a fisted reclusiarch. Enemy hq is then pummeled to death next turn. Ok so we are assuming a charge here (or the reclusiarch looses his advantage), so we can probably just assume that the captain & terminators are going to be slightly better when charged themselves (extra attack back & no wasted bonus). 5 hammernators plus fist relcusiarch, if we assume the sgt. is busy eating a challenge thats 16 hammer strikes, rerolling hits thats roughly 13-14 vs 10-11 hits without the liturgies of blood on average, so were looking at an extra 2-3 hits for having the reclusiarch. Wounding on a 2+ and ignoring any 2+sv's 10-11 hits are about as likely to kill off 9-10 TEQ unless they have a decent invun save, in which case its going to fast become a battle of attrition and maybe the extra few initial hits might well tip the ballance in your favour. However this is only applies when the terminators themselves are charging (harder to guarantee than before), and is only at high efficienty vs another I1 2+sv unit, if the enemy has 3+ save or a reasonable ammount of normal I attacks having the captains claws (and maybe a terminator or two) will make all the difference, and you can confidently shred 5-10 mans before anything that might ignore your 2+ save strikes. MC's are a problem, but they are a problem for everyone now, and your would still be better equipped than most units to deal with them. In conclusion for a terminator unit the relcusiarch is more expensive, and only brings a significant advantage when charging. Taking Captain T&L instead is virtually as good on the charge, and better under almost every other circumstance imho. Edit: Theres fearless from the reclusiarch now I suppose, which might make some difference now its not a big disadvantage (cant see people going to ground with hammernators anyway). But sweeping advance isnt a massive problem for marines anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlantic Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I'm not sure I would run it, but I'm sold on the Thunder & Lightning Captain. For what he costs, it seems like you would get a good bit of utility out of him. Of course this will fall to pieces if he runs into Lysander, Marneus, Draigo, Seth, Tycho, Typhus, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Take the idea of Captain "Tarnel" I will model one up see how he goes, Im also going to model up a Death Company T&L, expensive for a single wound DC but I am magnetised anyway and it looks fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.