Noise Marines in 6th

[techsoldaten]

Thinking about Noise Marines in 6th edition and how the new rapid fire rules affect their value. I have heard some grumbling about it, and believe that the new rules don't actually make them more or less valuable then they were under 5th edition rules.

 

In 6th edition, a rapid fire weapon can shoot twice up to half it's maximum distance, and shooting rapid fire eliminates a unit's ability to assault that turn. The way the rule is written, it makes it sound like shooting the weapon itself prevents a unit from assaulting (regardless of whether or not it was fired rapidly). The complaint I have heard is that allowing units to move and shoot rapidly is too much.

 

A sonic blaster, on the other hand, allows 2 shots up to the maximum distance of the weapon, plus the ability to assault. A blastmaster used in assault mode also allows for pinning, which could be very valuable in the rare situations where it actually works. It seems like this is still very valuable, even compared to what you can do with a bolter under the new rules.

 

While I don't think the upgrade cost for a blastmaster can be justified, it seems like it would be worth it to pay an additional 10 points per marine for a squad that can shoot twice and assault with a higher initiative. I don't see where the new rapid fire rules are really nerfing noise marines so much as creating a couple scenarios where they don't have as much of an advantage.

 

Am I missing something?

[Panda_]

Slaanesh marked units got a nice boost with the rulebook, simply because how Challenges affect melee.

With a Power sword, 3 attacks and striking first, they have a good chance to kill the opposing character (except Independant ones ofc). If the challenge is refused, they'll still kill some model and deny the opposing character's attack. Slaaneshi's aspiring champions are in a win-win situation.

 

The blastmaster got a boost too. S8 that keeps S8 even if the blast center isn't on the target vehicule enhance somewhat their AT potential.

 

Blasters weren't much worth their 5 points. As bolters are closing the gap (they fire 24' on the move), Blasters seem to be worse than before.

 

Plus in the end, grey knight still trample Noises.

[Muskie]

I like Noisemarines, always have. They used to look so cool, now they look less unique. Luckily I have all the old models, plus all the new conversion bitz so I will field a visually appealing squad. Noisemarines had become a staple of my multi-mark/undivided army before I put it on the shelf (in boxes). When the new Chaos Codex comes out I want to approach it with as open mind as possible. Obviously models I already own or have already converted and painted will get used, especially allies... But what I paint first and more importantly what I buy from GW's standpoint.

 

I don't know anymore. I've been away from the game for over a year. I don't know when I'll play next, people invite me to tournaments, but I think I'd like to play some games with the new rules and the new Codex in private. I want to do a more maneuverable army with a higher model count than was possible with all Nurgle or all any 'god' squad. I also want more variety in what I paint.

 

Assuming Blastmaster rules remain the same and nothing is done to make regular Chaos Space Marines more attractive, Noisemarines figure in my plans, as long as they are Troops or can be made troops... If I need a special or not so special HQ to make Noisemarines troops, which is my prediction, then Cultists or whatever remains as a Troop choice in the new Chaos Codex becomes both a necessity and something that requires more thought. Elite also becomes very crowded under this scenario...

[minigun762]

The blastmaster got a boost too. S8 that keeps S8 even if the blast center isn't on the target vehicule enhance somewhat their AT potential.

 

Agreed, it went from an adequate AT weapon to a fairly decent one. Sadly its only AP3 so no bonus there. I still think there is a role for the 5 man BM camper squad.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The doomsiren got even more terrifying due to getting to fire it on overwatch ;D

 

And sonic blasters are also good on overwatch, since they can fire their 3 shots on heavy mode. And then if the Champion has a power sword, he'll mulch most other sergeant level characters. They are pretty nasty dudes.

[minigun762]

I'm curious how common basic power swords will be now that they're "only" AP3. More common with Slaaneshi troops thanks to I5 but for the rank and file I4 marine, doesn't seem that impressive compared to the value with power axes or the straight up solid power of fists.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I think we're still gonna see fists as the standard weapon, which is a shame since that makes things a little dull. Power swords have the niche of being the best choice for challenges vs other MeQs. Mauls pull ahead for light anti tank and smashing basic infantry. Axes are going to be eclipsed by fists for the most part. The axe can get another attack over the fist and is cheaper, but the chance to instant death or hurt armor or MCs is too good to pass up. They should have made axes I2 so they could still go ahead of fists. We will still see axes used on units that come with power weapons and can't take fists though.

 

We are going to see a lot more plasma pistols though, due to precise shots and overwatch.

[minigun762]

I think we're still gonna see fists as the standard weapon, which is a shame since that makes things a little dull. Power swords have the niche of being the best choice for challenges vs other MeQs. Mauls pull ahead for light anti tank and smashing basic infantry. Axes are going to be eclipsed by fists for the most part. The axe can get another attack over the fist and is cheaper, but the chance to instant death or hurt armor or MCs is too good to pass up. They should have made axes I2 so they could still go ahead of fists. We will still see axes used on units that come with power weapons and can't take fists though.

 

We are going to see a lot more plasma pistols though, due to precise shots and overwatch.

 

Interesting thoughts, though my gut is telling me that mauls being AP4 will be too limiting to be a common choice. As for challenges, I need to spend more time reviewing the rules to decide just how big of a change that is going to be and whether winning or conducting challenges will go into standard army list building.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The AP 4 is only limiting against MeQ, remember. And while I do realize that is a large amount of armies played (and discussed here), it's a godly weapon against pretty much every other race. Most xenos will get wounded on a 2 and have their armor penned. It can instant death GeQs. And it's superior to the powersword against TeQs, and can pen most of the standard transports in the game, and many other tanks on rear armor. I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes the most used powerweapon (after the power fist of course.)

 

Challenges will be tough to avoid. If their sword sergeant challenges your fist, you either accept and he gets to swing first, or you decline and you don't get to attack with your fist (his sword still gets to just kill some of your normal dudes instead.) There's also going to be a lot of stronger characters running around negating or killing your fist champs in similar ways.

[makesomenoise]

I'm probably still going for the blasters and a fist champ in the unit i field my psycker in, his ap3 instant dearh i6 will cover for the fist. But any stand alone assault units i'd go power sword. Terminator lords are going to be an issue, and i'm not sure how to handle them aside from wound saturation w/ shooting + i5 (if no challenge,)

[jmurph]

You *have* to take plasma (oblits, Chosen, Termis, etc.) to deal with termis. SS/TH termies die to massed fire.

 

SBs are still way overpriced- should come auto with a NM. GKs still make NMs look like a joke.

[makesomenoise]

Don't get me wrong because I value the input I find on this board, but I don't think anyone cares to compare chaos to GK's at this point. I find it in every advice snipit around noise marines, it's like saying the answer to your GK problems would be for you to play necrons.

 

I get it, they're better... but they aren't the topic we're discussing. Yep sonic blasters cost a great deal, blast masters are over priced and doom sirens still destroy MeQ's.

 

Here's the break down for noise marines for now... 25 points for a loaded model, you get 3 shots if you stand and shoot and 2 if you advance. Yes rapid fire may advance and fire now, which is fine, they get either 1 shot at 24 or 2 at 12 w/o charge options.

 

We get 3/2 at 24 and 2 at 12 with charge options, we have higher initiative than a standard marine we have 2 attacks per model wich is equal to an assault marine (if i remember right)

 

Expensive yes, but pound for pound superior to a standard marine. In fact better in everyway even have fearless. New fearless rules don't punish you so it's a good thing.

 

Blast masters are now more functional with full strength resovled on a near miss, doom sirens are the same but with new wound pool distributions may harm champions faster than anticipated, power weapon champs will likely be the new norm as i5 power weapons will do great in a challenge, I look to see alot of power sword/ melta bomb combos.

 

I think you'll continue to see noise marines in 6th and maybe even an increase in them after the new codex. Assuming power creep and rebalancing occurs I'm sure you'll find alot of people painting their greyknights pink =P

[Mr.selfdestruct]

AMEN BROTHER!!!

[minigun762]

Here's the break down for noise marines for now... 25 points for a loaded model, you get 3 shots if you stand and shoot and 2 if you advance. Yes rapid fire may advance and fire now, which is fine, they get either 1 shot at 24 or 2 at 12 w/o charge options.

 

We get 3/2 at 24 and 2 at 12 with charge options, we have higher initiative than a standard marine we have 2 attacks per model wich is equal to an assault marine (if i remember right)

 

Expensive yes, but pound for pound superior to a standard marine. In fact better in everyway even have fearless. New fearless rules don't punish you so it's a good thing.

 

Blast masters are now more functional with full strength resovled on a near miss, doom sirens are the same but with new wound pool distributions may harm champions faster than anticipated, power weapon champs will likely be the new norm as i5 power weapons will do great in a challenge, I look to see alot of power sword/ melta bomb combos.

 

I agree with your assessment on everything but the sonic blasters. With the recent buffing of rapid fire weapons, I think the advantages of the sonic blasters are too small and/or expensive to be a common upgrade. It seems to confirm my previous feelings that the big value in noise marines is as small objective holders/fire support squads with blastmaster or as dedicated assault units with power sword and doom siren. In addition to what you noted for doom sirens and power weapons @ I5, the assault variant has improved due to the weakening of furious charge for berserkers which were the standard chaos assault unit previously, now if you want I5, you look towards the guys in pink and black.

[Muskie]

The blastmaster got a boost too. S8 that keeps S8 even if the blast center isn't on the target vehicule enhance somewhat their AT potential.

 

Agreed, it went from an adequate AT weapon to a fairly decent one. Sadly its only AP3 so no bonus there. I still think there is a role for the 5 man BM camper squad.

 

Don't you mean a six man blastmaster camper squad? That is what I ran and people thought I was strange when I started doing it...

[minigun762]

Don't you mean a six man blastmaster camper squad? That is what I ran and people thought I was strange when I started doing it...

 

I accept either 5 (for minimal point expenditure) or 6 (to support the fluff). Any more is too many for a camping squad with 1 big gun.

[Ethrion]

After reading all this I'm actually really psyched about starting up my Emperor's Children again. It might not be totally cost effective but I'm definitely going to be running some squads with sonic blasters, some with just blastmasters as objective fire support units and some as dedicated close combat units with power sword and doom siren. Throw in a mix of dreadclaws, rhinos, raiders and Lucius for good measure...should be great fun for the III legion once again!

[techsoldaten]

After reading all this I'm actually really psyched about starting up my Emperor's Children again.

Me too, I have had nothing but luck with them in the past.

 

Imagine what they can do perched behind an Aegis defense line, raining shots on infantry from heavy cover, ready to strike whenever anyone does get too close. Already having thoughts about converting the scenery into a row of Marshall halfstacks just to give these guys a more natural setting. With the right number of Blast Masters, this wall of noise would be impregnable.

[minigun762]

The AP 4 is only limiting against MeQ, remember. And while I do realize that is a large amount of armies played (and discussed here), it's a godly weapon against pretty much every other race. Most xenos will get wounded on a 2 and have their armor penned. It can instant death GeQs. And it's superior to the powersword against TeQs, and can pen most of the standard transports in the game, and many other tanks on rear armor. I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes the most used powerweapon (after the power fist of course.)

 

I've been thinking about it more and I'm starting to get on board with the mauls. While I was initially very pro-power axe, I think they are best saved for terminators who can survive the AP3/4 attacks from other power weapons and still strike back. For power armor champions, the power sword will be better if you're typically fighting MEQs and the maul if you fight a more diverse collection of armies.

 

Just tossing numbers out there of a Chaos champion with power sword and mauls vs MEQ champion :

 

Sword = 3 attacks @ WS4 = 1.5 hits @ S4 = 0.75 wounds @ I4/5

Maul = 3 attacks @ WS4 = 1.5 hits @ S6 = 1.25 wounds @ 3+ = 0.42 wounds @ I4/5

[alphariusomegon20]

I think we're still gonna see fists as the standard weapon, which is a shame since that makes things a little dull. Power swords have the niche of being the best choice for challenges vs other MeQs. Mauls pull ahead for light anti tank and smashing basic infantry. Axes are going to be eclipsed by fists for the most part. The axe can get another attack over the fist and is cheaper, but the chance to instant death or hurt armor or MCs is too good to pass up. They should have made axes I2 so they could still go ahead of fists. We will still see axes used on units that come with power weapons and can't take fists though.

 

We are going to see a lot more plasma pistols though, due to precise shots and overwatch.

 

Interesting thoughts, though my gut is telling me that mauls being AP4 will be too limiting to be a common choice. As for challenges, I need to spend more time reviewing the rules to decide just how big of a change that is going to be and whether winning or conducting challenges will go into standard army list building.

 

I disagree. I think we'll find the ability to go at initiative with S6 and cause I1 next turn on whoever does survive a challenge will outweigh the downsides of AP4. I think Maces and Mauls will become the weapon of choice for challenges.

[darth_giles]

Imagine what they can do perched behind an Aegis defense line, raining shots on infantry from heavy cover, ready to strike whenever anyone does get too close. Already having thoughts about converting the scenery into a row of Marshall halfstacks just to give these guys a more natural setting. With the right number of Blast Masters, this wall of noise would be impregnable.

This was what I was considering in an EC list for shortly after the 4th Edition Codex came out, when I was trying to find something other than the obligatory Dual Lash 9 Oblit list. Dump some Rhino squads of Noise Marines onto objectives, and then say something to the effect of, "Come and take it!"

[Ethrion]

Well I tested out noise marines in 6th edition yesterday and I can confirm that they are pretty damn awesome. Between the sonic blasters, power swords, doom sirens and Lucius I managed to take out 3 squads of blood angel assault marines including a sanguinary priest and a death company dreadnought. Having the ability to fire and then assault at a higher initiative and challenge at a higher initiative was really useful. As well as being able to strike before the blood angels even when they got the charge off against me. Plus 5 man squads with blastmasters as fire support was actually quite effective as both anti-infantry and anti-armour.

[minigun762]

Well I tested out noise marines in 6th edition yesterday and I can confirm that they are pretty damn awesome. Between the sonic blasters, power swords, doom sirens and Lucius I managed to take out 3 squads of blood angel assault marines including a sanguinary priest and a death company dreadnought. Having the ability to fire and then assault at a higher initiative and challenge at a higher initiative was really useful. As well as being able to strike before the blood angels even when they got the charge off against me. Plus 5 man squads with blastmasters as fire support was actually quite effective as both anti-infantry and anti-armour.

 

Thanks for the update, I do love hearing how things perform on the actual tabletop.

[darth_giles]

Well I tested out noise marines in 6th edition yesterday and I can confirm that they are pretty damn awesome. Between the sonic blasters, power swords, doom sirens and Lucius I managed to take out 3 squads of blood angel assault marines including a sanguinary priest and a death company dreadnought. Having the ability to fire and then assault at a higher initiative and challenge at a higher initiative was really useful. As well as being able to strike before the blood angels even when they got the charge off against me. Plus 5 man squads with blastmasters as fire support was actually quite effective as both anti-infantry and anti-armour.

Looks like you caught everything I was trying to mention in the thread I started- sonic blasters and doom sirens own Overwatch, and our I5 owns challenges. Slaanesh has come out pretty good this time around.

[the jeske]

the thing is GK do the same only for less points . psycannons are better then blast masters even with the template change . SB out perform Sonic blaster[for less points , or they realy out perform them being str 5 and glancing rhino class to death]. i6>i5. we have the syren which is in deed awesome , specialy if someone doesnt know it exists. But they have more utility hammer hand makes them str 5 and cant be countered anymore , nor can force weapons be . they can put their fist[or rather will] on a dude that cant be challanged. and what is even more important they dont have any limitiations as what to take if someone goes after a fluff list . EC/NM are still have 2 units in the whole dex 5 if someone counts DPs, lords and sorc , GK have a whole dex .