news?

[aledonati]

Throne of skulls - DA codex release issue

Hi folks,

 

Wasn't sure if this is the place for this topic but as its discussing forthcoming release i felt it was appropriate in the rumour section.

 

Basically my mates and I are travelling to Warhammer world for Throne of Skulls in October, all the way from the Deen!

 

We were discussing army choices as we need to start designing for 6th ed.

 

My mate suggested a death company army, and while horrifying, it cant take objectives and gives almost no VP's.

 

However having a read of my DA dex, i am very taken with the belial DW army.

 

However my source in the GW world informed me that the new DA dex may be out by October and as a result my list i have could be totally wrong in terms of models i can take/points make up.

 

I wasnt sure if a tournament would use a new dex as it used to be that there was a 2 month Grace period so people designing and painting\playtesting their armies dont have the rug pulled out due to a new rule book coming out just before the tournament.

 

If they are doing that, it means the DA dex will be getting released about august.

 

I doubt GW will nerf their new poster army, but i am hesitant to start buying the necessary models. Though I am toying with the idea of using Space hulk terminators as a start do convert into DW...hmmm

 

But yeah, does anyone have firmer details on DA dex release, or if the tournaments still give a 2 month grace before new rules are included?

 

Cheers

[march10k]

I thought it was 30 days for most tournaments. In any case, any deathwing army you build now is unlikely to be made weaker by a new codex, at worst, you'll just end up not having cheesy new stuff...but what you do have will be just as powerful under the new codex as under the old...so even if they use the new one, you lose nothing! In any case, you'd have time to make some minor changes, if painting to a certain standard in the limited time available is your primary concern...like adding/substituting one or two vehicles, or changing the weapons on some terminators...

[Ajax Tlamunus]

My best guess is that, if anything, Belial will be given an increase in points, probably into the low 200's. I suspect Deathwing Terminator Squads will probably see a small increase in points as well.

[Alys Dwr]

If anything, the news you've posted is the most recent rumour i've heard regarding a release date for the DA codex.

 

If you are worried about the armament of your units becoming illegal you could try magnetizing the arms to allow you to switch things around when the new codex appears. Best case scenario you'll just have to paint up and change one or two arms here and there to make your list legal for the tournament. This would also allow you to swap arms around based on the number of points things cost.

 

Based on a guess of you taking an all DW army and the all DW army existing in our next codex, i don't think you've got too much to fear in terms of making drastic changes.

 

Al

[Haranin]

I've gone through about two hundred magnets doing this. Of course, I ended up doing most torsos as well...

[march10k]

My best guess is that, if anything, Belial will be given an increase in points, probably into the low 200's. I suspect Deathwing Terminator Squads will probably see a small increase in points as well.

 

As long as he gets buffed into a badass in the process. I actually like that he's a cheap wimp, but an expensive wimp? NOT!

[Brother Immolator]

My best guess is that, if anything, Belial will be given an increase in points, probably into the low 200's. I suspect Deathwing Terminator Squads will probably see a small increase in points as well.

 

As long as he gets buffed into a badass in the process. I actually like that he's a cheap wimp, but an expensive wimp? NOT!

 

For what he brings into the table he is ok in my book. He is a standard terminator captain with mastercrafted (btw those exist still in 6th?) powersword, fearless rights of batttle and unlocks some options. He is not a killing machine but worth the points spent IMHO, but yes he needs something to make him better. Not cheesy just better.

[facmanpob]

My best guess is that, if anything, Belial will be given an increase in points, probably into the low 200's. I suspect Deathwing Terminator Squads will probably see a small increase in points as well.

 

As long as he gets buffed into a badass in the process. I actually like that he's a cheap wimp, but an expensive wimp? NOT!

 

For what he brings into the table he is ok in my book. He is a standard terminator captain with mastercrafted (btw those exist still in 6th?) powersword, fearless rights of batttle and unlocks some options. He is not a killing machine but worth the points spent IMHO, but yes he needs something to make him better. Not cheesy just better.

The thing about the points cost for Belial is that one of the best things he brings is the chance to take an apothecary for a DW squad, so the cost of the apothecary can be added to his base cost to work out a true cost for him i.e. 160 points.

[Ronin_eX]

The hardest evidence we have right now is Harry (well known rumour monger on Warseer) has said they will be the second codex of 6E and the Chinese-language leaks of the starter set are showing our units with fairly different stats than they posses in the current codex. Current guesses are July/August (but this is most likely Codex Chaos Space Marines), September is likely out as that is the release of the starter, the next best guess is October (but this is already rumoured to be the release of the WFB army book for Warriors of Chaos). So no real hard evidence right now and with the rest of the year so packed we may not be seeing the Dark Angels until December/January.

 

But either way we have nothing hard yet, other than that it is coming and that it is apparently far along enough for the new stats to be used in the core starter set. Beyond this only time will tell.

 

One really out-there theory of course (not supported by any rumours as of yet) is that we may see a dual-codex release this year. But I stress that this is mostly wishful thinking and an attempt to reconcile a lot of rumours flying around. GW has been really ironclad about rumours lately so we are unlikely to know unless it is a month or so away (maybe less). Even though we had a general idea of the month for 6th it still kind of snuck up out of nowhere. I feel that concrete rumours for codices will be harder to come by as they are less widely anticipated and not as high profile as a whole new edition.

 

Re: Belial

 

His current awesomeness has less to do with him and more to do with how he has been errata'd in to being quite good (in one configuration). He lacks the Iron Halo of most Captain/Master level characters and was written with a 4+ inv. in close combat only under one of his builds. At this time it was better to give him claws and pray he could alpha-strike away the danger (it usually didn't work). At this time he was 150 points of weeny that allowed you to take terminators as troops. He wasn't really all that good for the cost and his only purpose was to make Deathwing armies.

 

Fast forward to the update that finally gave us 3+ inv. storm shields and suddenly he has one build which stands out. A Space Marine Captain from the vanilla codex gets his basics for 175 points (TH/SS and terminator armour). Belial, for 150 gets all of that, plus the ability to make terminators scoring troops and he can make a command squad out of them. He went from being an overpriced weeny to be a fairly underpriced, utilitarian workhorse character. He had no fancy gimmicks other than efficiency. By giving him access to a proper inv. save he went from zero to hero.

 

Fast forward to right now and things have gotten better. Power weapons are down to AP3 for the most part so now the inv. save is just gravy on top of the rest of him.

 

With that said though, I am hoping that GW's test with the GK and Blood Angels have opened them up to the idea of us not having to modify the FoC with a character but rather start with terminators as a troop options (and bikes as well... scouts can stay in elites or move to fast attack if need be). This will free Belial up to do more than just allow Deathwing to happen and to get proper support abilities (maybe split the idea of the terminator honour guard/command squad from him and make it a unit entry for characters in terminator armour).

 

I want Belial to be a stone cold bad arse and to come with a price tag to match. Cheap utility characters should be the realm of generics, named characters should have some oomph to them. The current Belial is just an undercosted standard Captain. His main special points are things that should be inherent to the army itself and not to him. Belial is the kind of character you would stick in Codex: Space Marines to represent a Deathwing army using the vanilla book (except he is still less interesting than Lysander, Shrike or Sicarius). He feels like a generic character entry with less flexible equipment and a name attached. He makes for poor inspiration as a named character.

 

He is not the kind of named character we need in the next codex (honestly I'm hoping they allow for generic DW/RW leaders in the next one just to give us some options and to allow them to make the named ones all the more special).

[Brother Immolator]

The problem with generics in the Ravenwing/Deathwing is that it cant happen fluffwise, since the position is fixed. As is the chapter master's. Should we get a generic chapter master as well? Me thinks no. That been said the captain should have the ability to equip himself with a bike and Terminator armor. Why should only Libs and chaps?

 

I agree on the OOMPH comment but remember our codex was not designed to be OOMPH in any department. Not in 4th not in 5th.

 

It got its OOMPH after the FAQs but even that requires a certain playstyle and experience to use.

 

I myself want the foc to remain as is and have the terminators and bikes to be unlocked if i want them as troops and while i love that my scouts are WS/BS MEQ the fact that they are in the elites slot forces me to leave them in their box. Yes even with the new rules i cant sacrifice an elites slot for something that dies easily (dont forget we aint got cammo cloaks) and cant claim an objective. If i want firesupport ill take a plasma/missile dread (which got better btw now).

 

In conclusion: Give belial an OOMPH but allow him to mess with the FAQ.Add some more options to the company master for those that want generics and for :blink: shake, rename the model of asmodai to Saphon and re-release him. And make a new sculpt for asmodai and Naaman is it that difficult?

[Alys Dwr]

The problem with generics in the Ravenwing/Deathwing is that it cant happen fluffwise, since the position is fixed. As is the chapter master's. Should we get a generic chapter master as well? Me thinks no. That been said the captain should have the ability to equip himself with a bike and Terminator armor. Why should only Libs and chaps?

I agree to a point, but the ability to field a non Belial or Sammael DW/RW army should be possible IMO.

 

I don't think Belial is deployed evey time the DW suit up and go heretic stomping. In situations where Belial is not present it is likely a single veteran sargeant/interrogator chaplain is given the job of force commander and i think this should be representable on the table top. Keep the current rules, points and stats for Belial but rename him as a generic DW force commander and then boost Belial to a 200pt character with to apropriate increase in WS,BS and wargear.

 

Similarly one could do this for the Ravenwing where one could field a single RW model on a bike to command the force. The veteran sargeant of the first squad perhaps; the guy who is next in line to become company master.

 

Fluff wise these wouldn't be permanent positions, but an instance where the company master has turned to one of his guys and said "take a couple of squads to fight those pesky enemies over there".

 

 

I second the return of Asmodai/Saphon and Naaman. So what if the latter is deceased, WH40k is a way of reliving historic battles from throughout the universe and Naaman was there for a good chunk of time.

 

Al

[Harleqvin]

I thought Plasma got worse for vehicles. Don't they now take gets hot (glancing hit,) damage?

[Tanhausen]

Plasma did get worse for vehicles due to get hot.

 

Belial is 130, not 150 ;)

 

And as for the chinese leaked thingy...what stat change are we talking about? +1WS? thats not a huge difference...

[facmanpob]

And as for the chinese leaked thingy...what stat change are we talking about? +1WS? thats not a huge difference...

iirc it was that the bikes had 2 base attacks......

[Harleqvin]

Plasma did get worse for vehicles due to get hot.

 

Belial is 130, not 150 ;)

 

And as for the chinese leaked thingy...what stat change are we talking about? +1WS? thats not a huge difference...

 

 

I thought so. My next Q is, how does that work? Is it after rolling the gets hot chance you get a 1, you then roll another d6 and if it's 1-3 you take the glancing hit and remove a hull point?

[Tamwulf]

One of two things will happen: More of the same, or a dramatic change in what we think are the Dark Angels.

 

Prepare for our fluff to get retconned. It happens in every new codex release. The question becomes how much will it change? Even the ideas of Ravenwing, Deathwing, and Greenwing may go away. Let's face it, Dark Angels have always had a bit of an identity crisis. Every other Space Marine army has one color scheme- blue, black, white, blue-grey, yellow, green, red... only the Blood Angels have a secondary color for black. Dark Angels has green, white and black. Hard to market/sell a tri-colored army to someone. Then there is the whole Fallen thing- are they the true Dark Angels? Are they the bad guys? Will they become just another minor off shoot Corsair army? Frankly, I liked the random selection of an enemy character and getting bonus VP's for taking him out as he "knows something he/she/it shouldn't know about the Dark Angels/Fallen". With all the randomness in this edition, I can see that coming back.

 

My expectations for the new codex are very, very low based on how well the DA have been treated in the past. At this point, I'd stomach becoming Best Bro's with the Fallen to stop a Bug invasion if it gave us a 250+ point "Celestial Lion" (aka Sanguinar) who beats face, or that the whole Fallen thing was just a misunderstanding, and the Space Wolves took care of Cypher for us, so now we're free to be the First Legion again and get the Stormraven. Or maybe we team up with the Eldar to kick some Necron Butt... and it gives us a new Fast Attack choice of Space Marines riding giant mechanical lions.

 

Laugh, cry, or discount all I'm saying. I've played through four Dark Angel's Codex, and each time, GW has made it more bland, more weak, and less interesting. I don't see that trend changing.

 

With my expectations being so low, I won't be disappointed, and if its actually good, I'll be pleasantly surprised, and everyone here can throw it back in my face. That's OK, I'll eat Crow if it means we have a good codex.

[Brother Immolator]

Well i never considered it an identity crisis or drawback,in fact i was sold on the tri colored pallet. It is another defining factor of the chapter.

 

Fluff hasnt change that much over the years IMHO too, add retcon compile thats what i ve been seen and i think it will remain.

 

I don't think Belial is deployed evey time the DW suit up and go heretic stomping. In situations where Belial is not present it is likely a single veteran sargeant/interrogator chaplain is given the job of force commander and i think this should be representable on the table top. Keep the current rules, points and stats for Belial but rename him as a generic DW force commander and then boost Belial to a 200pt character with to apropriate increase in WS,BS and wargear.

 

As do i thats why i proposed instead of having a generic DW force commander (which doesnt exist fluff wise) give the company master terminator armor or a bike or both...That last one would be awesome.... :eek

[Marshal Rohr]

It would be cool for the Ravenwing to become Bike Mounted Veterans befitting their status as some of the most elite trackers and scouts in the 41st Millennium.

[facmanpob]

@ Tamwulf - Bearing in mind that Gav Thorpe is writing a bunch of DA books at the moment, the first of which is called Ravenwing, I honestly can't see a new Codex getting rid of the DW or RW!

[Komodo]

I really want our RW bikers to have access to CCW and boltpistol (really, kinda dumb now, they have t-l bolter built-in, why not taking good old chainsword). And I guess it is really possible to equip our sergeants (even now) with a power lance. Would be cool if every biker had access to "power weapon". Axe/maul/sword/lance wielding ravenwing bikers :P

 

oh, and I would like to get back skilled riders.

[Alys Dwr]

As do i thats why i proposed instead of having a generic DW force commander (which doesnt exist fluff wise) give the company master terminator armor or a bike or both...That last one would be awesome.... :)

Give which company master TDA or a bike? Master of the 3rd? 4th? 5th? etc? There are only two such company masters who are equipped in this manner and they are named characters. What i proposed is a simple way of not needing to field an expensive named character if you choose not to, and fluff means nothing when it comes to designing new rules for an army. Make the rules and then staple patches of fluff to it and unleash them on the hobbyists who will undoubtedly complain that it isn't fluffy enough, but who cares as long as the keep buying GW products. And they will keep buying... they always do... [insert evil GW laugh here].

 

TDA bikers would be something mighty to behold! 2+5+ T5 with the movement bonuses, twin linked bolters and LC/TH for everyone. Deathstar anyone? :)

 

Al

[facmanpob]

The problem comes from the fact that GW don't use a normal RL military force org for building their Space Marine Companies.....there's no way in RL that a company would have 1 officer then a load of squads, it just wouldn't be able to function (even if they were superhuman!). Even if they had just 1 2i/c for the Company Master.......a Lieutenant for example.... this would offer a second Company level HQ choice who could be equipped differently to the Company Master.

 

The problem is that GW don't do this for any SM chapter, and probably aren't going to start now, unfortunately! ;)

[Captain Semper]

As do i thats why i proposed instead of having a generic DW force commander (which doesnt exist fluff wise) give the company master terminator armor or a bike or both...That last one would be awesome.... ;)

Give which company master TDA or a bike? Master of the 3rd? 4th? 5th? etc? There are only two such company masters who are equipped in this manner and they are named characters.

 

The Masters of any Company - even 10th (or should I say especially 10th) are all Members of the Inner Circle. That means they have progressed there after being inducted in the DW. Which means they are trained and have access to TDA. Which means it's completely wrong fluff-wise to not have an option for TDA for the generic Master. In fact 4th edition was the first to deprive the Company Master of the TDA option. The bike is another thing altogether - it does not goes along with the progression in the Chapter hierarchy (as TDA does) so it makes sense that only the MoRW will have access to it. Although it's conceivable that a Company Master could have, at some point, served with the 2nd Comp. and thus gain the required expirience to ride a bike to RW standards, he would not be the "average" of generic company Master that the HQ slot is trying to portray. So yeah, a generic Master having a bike is probably unfluffy, as is the lack of TDA.

 

My 2c

[Alys Dwr]

The Masters of any Company - even 10th (or should I say especially 10th) are all Members of the Inner Circle. That means they have progressed there after being inducted in the DW. Which means they are trained and have access to TDA. Which means it's completely wrong fluff-wise to not have an option for TDA for the generic Master.

I'm aware of that, but my thoughts are made using the caveat of "all suits of TDA are held in the DW". This dramatically reduces the likelihood of the other company masters gearing up in TDA to lead their companies. Unless folks are suggesting i can borrow the master of the 5th to put on TDA and lead my DW force? If we did that, then who is commanding the 5th?

 

This could work if one played a greenwing army with a couple of attached DW squads. Give the battle company master TDA so that he can join the DW squads but he would still be present with his greenwing on the table. Where this falls down is when playing a 100% DW force, IMO.

 

Al

[Captain Semper]

The Masters of any Company - even 10th (or should I say especially 10th) are all Members of the Inner Circle. That means they have progressed there after being inducted in the DW. Which means they are trained and have access to TDA. Which means it's completely wrong fluff-wise to not have an option for TDA for the generic Master.

I'm aware of that, but my thoughts are made using the caveat of "all suits of TDA are held in the DW". This dramatically reduces the likelihood of the other company masters gearing up in TDA to lead their companies. Unless folks are suggesting i can borrow the master of the 5th to put on TDA and lead my DW force? If we did that, then who is commanding the 5th?

 

;) No, noone's suggesting that... (not me at least :P )

 

This could work if one played a greenwing army with a couple of attached DW squads. Give the battle company master TDA so that he can join the DW squads but he would still be present with his greenwing on the table. Where this falls down is when playing a 100% DW force, IMO.

 

Al

 

I guess we have the difficult exercise to reconcile rules and fluff and fluff and fluff...

 

First-off I fully agree with you that the number 1 consideration for rules-making is for said rules to work. So it would be acceptable to have a not-as-fluffy list that works and just play the fluff in our heads... However it should be clear that the rules contradict fluff rather than define it in this case.

 

Now fluff-wise we stumble once again on the duality of the term "Deathwing". The term is used interchangeably to denote the First Company of the DAs Chapter but also the first circle of "knowledge" that a DA may enter. In fact the Inner Circle itself is described as "Inner Circle of the Deathwing" which means that the members of the Inner Circle are members of the DW. However (as is the case with Company Masters for example) not all are members of the DAs 1st Comp. or indeed the DAs Chapter at all (as the Inner Circle spans accross Chapters)... Furthermore one can be a member of the DW (as in Circle of Knowledge) and not the DW (1st Company). This is the case with some Vet Sergeants as was put forward in the 3rd ed. Codex. So in this context, and coming back to your words TDA could be held exclusively for DW usage - which means all members of the DW have that option - even the ones that are not 1st Comp. but even more senior.

 

I also would like to point out that TDA is (much like any other Chapter really) a status symbol. I beleive (although not explicitly mentioned anywhere - and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that all Company Masters are First Company Veterans. They have progressed to become Inner Circle - I don't think anyone would ask them for their TDA back... Also given that we are a "rich" Chapter, I don't see why a senior member of the Inner Circle and commander of a Company will not have access to TDA when an equivalent Captain from any Codex Chapter has this option (rules and fluff mingle again)... I believe every member of the Inner Circle has access to TDA (and the training to use it)and this should be reflected in the rules of our future Codex - much like it was in 2nd and 3rd Eds.

 

Let's see where our new Codex will take us - fluff & rules-wise... ;)