Brother Tholath Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Hell All! I'm creating a Space Wolves and Codex SM army list to collect and I am planning to use my own chapter for the SM who have been hit hard by the Tyranids and so are down to very few marines now. But that is beside the point. As stated, the reason for this topic it to find out how other people use the Honour Guard in battles and how they kit them out. Also, reading through the unit entry, I believe that they can be equipped with not only the wargear they begin with (eg - Power Weapons, Bolt Pistol and Boltgun) but also take a Relic Blade in addition to all of the previous mentioned wargear. I have checked the FAQ for Space Marines and the Codex and think this is the case but and curious to what you think. Am I right or wrong? I look forward to hearing your responses! Tholath, ps - if this is in the wrong section, please move it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 I kit mine out the "Idaho" way. Basically 5 guys, the Chapter Champion has a relic blade, a normal guy has a banner. Then a Chapter Master with at least a storm shield and relic blade, artificer armour also just got better. The banner adds bonuses to morale tests for my army, while my squad chucks out 10 S6 attacks on the charge and 20 S4 attacks on the charge, all AP 3 (but I modelled mine with swords, I know Idaho's have axes). Normally I find this is enough to steamroll most units, and now thanks to power weapons AP changes they're not so fragile against most power weapon units (like Banshees). But they did get worst against Terminators, they hurt Tactical Terminators quite well in 5th Ed. On the other hand, with the Chapter Champion always having to challenge, and being given a relic blade, the unit can take power weapon hits quite well and mince most units. I'm also going to move this to the appropriate section (Tactica Astartes) to get a better response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tholath Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 My thanks for moving the topic! Thought it might be wrong but could find this sub-forum! And that does make sense. Do you have any answer to the question with the Wargear? Because if it is the case you can take a relic blade and keep the power weapon then it might make sense to start working out some conversion ideas and have one as an Axe and the other a Sword? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 I've been slowing (like, glacially slowly) been piecing a squad together. I haven't used them yet so this is all theory and speculation, but I figured I'd throw my two cents in before Idaho shows up (and he will, he's the expert. He can smell these threads). My concept of them is slightly different -- I prefer to have higher strength than more attacks, so I started off going heavier on relic blades than the Idaho-pattern. It works a little to my advantage since I modelled mine with axes, so mine is going to come out looking like: Chapter Master with artificer armor, storm shield, relic blade Chapter Champion with relic blade Chapter Banner Bearer with relic blade (<--- this might change. . . we'll see) Honor Guard with power axe Honor Guard with power axe I'm looking at taking a power axe on the Banner Bearer and sticking the relic blade on a joe Honor Guard instead since relic blades reverted to AP3, but that's neither here nor there. The total number of on-charge attacks I get with this configuration is 14x S6 AP3 and 10x S5 AP2 I1. You can see compared to DG that I'm losing out on weight of attacks, but I gain in Strength and AP value (which is, I believe, a perfectly fluffy thing for the Iron Hands. Hate the Weak and all that). I've done some serious pondering on sticking a counts-as Chaplain Cassisu (aka Iron Father) in there with them which will, among other things, make up the disparity in attacks with rerolling missed hits on the charge. With the blanket changes to power weapons, the equipping of Honor Guard has become more complex and yet has also increased their usefulness and versatility. DG's is better at bullying joe schmoe units at AP3, while mine is better at standing toe-to-toe with Terminators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 And my large amount of slightly weaker attacks fits my Chapter's fluff of knightly-hood and a bit of showmanship. Swords are very much their thing, not axes. :) Deus Ex Ferrum is very right when he says Honour Guard have now got more complex, which is a good thing. You could give them power lances for example, or give some power swords and some power axes etc. They can now be tooled for the job at hand better than before. Looking at Deux Ex Ferrum's unit, I'd surmise that he has some other good anti-horde units in his list (mass bolter fire, Sternguard, TFC etc) to cover the anti-horde weakness of his axe wielding Honour Guard. Looking at my unit you would conversely surmise that I'd have some anti-TEQ elsewhere in my list (mass plasma, demo cannon etc). The Honour Guard unit is less of the anti-horde unit it mainly was in 5th Ed and is now so much more thanks to the changes in weapons AP, which is a very good thing. In particular, the good thing is that they don't need an armour save as much as they needed now, as most AP2 weapons in assault strike at I1. The only bad thing is the fact that Rhinos aren't assault vehicles. If you're modelling any models with a relic blade as well as a power weapon, I'd go for the relic blade being a sword, and the power weapon being an axe. Of course, the only benefit here would be getting AP2 with the axe as well as an extra attack but at less strength and going last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 The new power weapon rules have left my newly created Honour Guard squad in a bit of an interesting situation I daresay they might be better than before! I have a Champion, seven Honour Guards, and a Banner Bearer. The champion and banner bearer are modeled with swords, and four of the Guards have axes and three have swords. It ends up as a 5:4 ratio of sword to axe. That means I have a respectable number of S4, AP3, I4 attacks and a nice number of S5, AP2, I1 attacks. I can beat up on MEQ units that don't have axes of fists of their own like I did before. However, larger units with a powerfist may actually get those swings in now. If course, the Champion MUST challenge/accept a challenge if possible, so that squad sergeant is likely toast as he either strikes slower than the Champion or at the same time with armor saves allowed. I can even charge small units of Terminators and win, regardless of their armament. Tactical Terminators are actually better now than claw-heavy assault Terminators against my HG squad. The claws are saveable, and the hammers should drop to weight of AP2 wounds. The Tac Termies will actually have more attacks at I1 than a typical assault TDA squad, but are just about guaranteed to be wiped out. Of course, the damage to my squad will be significant as well. All in all, it feels like a boost against non-TDA, and a wash against TDA of all types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 quick Q about wound allocation for shooting purposes. using idaho pattern or similar, CM with arty armour as they all have 2+, if CM was closest would ALL shots be takne on him until he dies OR as they are all 2+ would only the first 3 from a salvo be allocated on him and the rest to the next closest in the squad. i ask because he has an inv save, so technically has different armour save.. im not sure. i think wound allocation is probably the hardest part about the new rules if im honest. this could be a good way to block massed plasma etc, stick him at the front with storm shield and take all the hits himself, makes them more durable than in 5th. plus you can use look out sir to negate the odd wound and keep him alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 It goes on save available versus wound groups. If all the wounds being fired at that example squad are bolters, yes, the CM takes every single save til they are all gone, or he dies. If the example is a mix of bolters and plasma, and the firer chooses the plasma wounds to be saved first, he'd take every single plasma wound til they were gone or he died. After the plasma wounds are exhausted, you progress to the next wound group, which is bolters. Short version: it goes on save being made, not saves available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 You guys give me too much praise. I merely championed the Honour Guard the largest whilst better commanders than me have had a great usage out of the unit. :) Regarding Wound Allocatin: The best thing about putting a Master with Storm Shield at the front is you are able to use the "look out sir" rule to protect him! The rule allows for wounds or unsaved wounds, so you can put wounds on him and take a 2+ roll to put the wound on another model so the normal model can take a save on their 2+ armour, or take an Invulnerable and if fail it roll a 2+ and remove a poor, loyal Honour Guardian! Regarding Weapon combinations: The new power weapon rules have made Honour Guard a premier unit in the game, rather than a niche unit. Even Incubi will get smashec apart by Honour Guard now thanks to their weapons being AP3 (though the Klaivex might kill the Champion in the process). When equipping the squad, it's a case of reviewing the squads likely opponents, delivery system (i.e. how likely are you to suffer losses), what other units you have in your army (defining their purpose) and of course what models you got available. I enjoy using a Chapter Master with Relic Blade and Storm Shield as he is particularly powerful in assaults. The squad he is attached to is very powerful when used to bully opposing units and avoid their nemesis units. The great news about the new weapon rules is the list of nemesis units has shrunk substantially! Remember those nasty old Grey Knights units which have force weapons which stirke before your Honour Guard and even their basic units carving through 2+ armour saves back in 5th edition? Well not any more, they will fear Honour Guard! As such, build the unit the best way to work together as a whole to play up to their role. The Chapter Master has a Relic Blade so he can take down models with his high initiative value, whilst the Chapter Champion also has the same to plough into enemy units at initiative 4 and win all those duels thanks to his Articifer Armour. The Chapter Ancient will have either a Relic Blade or Power Sword (to take advantage of an invulnerable save) and add to the attacks which hit before those mean old opposing AP2 attacks out there. Lastly, the squad are armed with Power Axes to boost the killing power of the squad. Remember the attacks from Honour Guard are just Weapon Skill 4 and Strength 4 so are the weakest link in offensive power, so boosting their strength will provide the squad will serious offensive power. Power Lances would be good too, provided you get the charge from a Landraider. I prefer Power Axes so the unit can receive a charge and be dangerous still. Sorry it's so brief, but I do intend to put more up on the subject after a bit of extra experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 the weird thing is each combat can only have one ongoing 'challenge' and that has to be the champ, so in all likely hood the CM is going to make a mess of the enemy squads.. even if you lose the champ to a better foe your already going to be up on combat res and in the following turn should the assault stick, your CM can take the challenge himself @Idaho dont be so modest, you were the first to champion them, it was your shoulders everyone else stood upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Idaho you mentioned a chapter ancient, which one is that? You say he had an invul save but no honor guards has an invul? Yes idaho, you are THE go to guy for honor guard tactics, just like greatcrusade is the scout guy , or how mughi is the dreadnought guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 :lol: Well to answer the questions: The Ancient is an old Ultramarines term for the Chapter Banner bearer. Old habits and all that! I mentioned him getting an Invulnerable save because I was referring to the benefits of a power sword and FORGOT the invulnerable save thing was a false rumour. Sorry, been a long day. Points are still valid though; I'm planning on keeping the power sword as then he can strike before AP2 weapons and cull hoard models (like Orks etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 As the others have said Idaho, you shouldn't be so modest. I would never have tried Honour Guard if you hadn't sung their praises so much, and now they're one of favourite units. And it upsets me quite a lot to think I may need to shelve them for a bit. I've just come back from a game you see, and obviously you can't assault from transports now. So I got them out in contemplation of assaulting, as my opponent had his units near my area. So I got out, shot some Scouts, and the next turn lost half of the unit to a 5 man combat squad with meltagun, combi-melta and a Librarian with Smite. Not impressed. So I charged them to make an example, butchered most the unit (despite FnP), and would surely have finished them off next turn, but we ran out of time. The point is, in only two games I can see how hard it is to set up charges from a Rhino though. That unit will get shot at to death. So now I really think I need to have a Land Raider, which means either less support, or my Sternguard go out of the list. As I've yet to get a Land Raider I want for them, it's looking like I won't be able to use them for a while, which is a shame because in assault they do rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Certainly is a problem assaulting from transports now, since we are forced to take a Landraider or struggle. This changes the dynamic of the army since adding an expensive transport into the army often requires a specific focus in the army and the loss of other units is a blow to army wide utility and flexibility. On the other hand, Orbital Bombardment just got nastier since it can cause a full S10, AP1 ordnance hit on the target, so even a scatter can cause damage on a Landraider, Battlewagon or Leman Russ. Lovely. And if it's Night fighting and you use Smoke Launchers you could get a substantial save of 3+ when advancing forward, though I would probably take the 18" move most of the time. Landraider assaults got scarier, since you can move 18" turn one, another 6" in turn 2, disembark a further 6" then charge 2D6 inches (average 7"). That's a turn 2 assault in my playbook, with a reach between 32" and 42", and an average of 37". Since people are wrongly believing transports suck now, it's an easy kill against those Long Fangs hiding at the back of the table. Even transports are hit on a 3+ when moving though, so no one is safe really. That's why I urge people to try a Landraider ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 It's not that transports suck now. It's just that transports that aren't assault vehicles suck for launching assaults out of. :D I will be trying a Land Raider out soon, as I really like my Honour Guard. It'll be more fluffy as well, as the lore on my 3rd Company has the First Captain having access to the only Land Raider in the Battle Companies, which is also an LRC (my favourite one). I look forward to using it, it's just buying and transporting it I'm not looking forward to. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 My only concern with land Raiders is that melta is doubly effective against them now. Penetrating hits were never hard to get with melta on AV14, and the +2 on the damage chart gives you a 50% chance of outright exploding after a hit from such a weapon. My local group fields a LOT of meltaguns in every possible platform. Drop Pod Blood Angel units with double meltaguns are "take that off the baord" units on turn one. I'm considering switching my HG to drop pod delivery now, since I can toss them deep inside enemy lines and weather the non-AP2 fire for a turn before charging in. Inertial Guidance allows some danger-close deployments without a hitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 I'm considering switching my HG to drop pod delivery now, since I can toss them deep inside enemy lines and weather the non-AP2 fire for a turn before charging in. Inertial Guidance allows some danger-close deployments without a hitch. But what if you encounter AP2 firepower? That was my thought with the Rhino at first. I'd stick outside, hopefully in cover, whether firepower and then charge. But with TDA being harder to beat, and AP2 not getting nerfed against vehicles, plus with cover getting worst and focus fire, AP2 is on the up. Already Marine players at my store I using quad plasma cannon units, and in this edition they are very scary. That's why I'm considering the Land Raider, as I can then protect them from AP2 before they charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Melta has the same effects it always had, ;) The damage table was changed to be the glancing table from 3rd edition, but the AP1 bonus turns it into the same table it was in 5th! It's not that transports suck now. It's just that transports that aren't assault vehicles suck for launching assaults out of. Oh not directed at you brother, rather the generic 40K 6th edition over reaction we see everywhere lately. More referring to trends rather than actual comments in the thread :) But with TDA being harder to beat, and AP2 not getting nerfed against vehicles, plus with cover getting worst and focus fire, AP2 is on the up. Already Marine players at my store I using quad plasma cannon units, and in this edition they are very scary. That's why I'm considering the Land Raider, as I can then protect them from AP2 before they charge. Yeah the Landraider has re-located it's niche in 40K I reckon. All those Melta units we have seen everywhere in the last edition are not as useful when Plasma weapons generally take up the same spot in an army list, as many people will be taking more infantry instead of just mechanised units. This is a minor point though, because it's the concentration on glancing vehicles to death which will make the Landraider such a potent weapon in our arsenal. Spamming Missile Launchers, Autocannons and to gain loads of glances on vehicles? Sure, go for it, Landraiders are not scared of even 6 Missile Launchers now lucky glances can't immobilise them! We haven't seen the meta change much yet and haven't seen the direction players will take, but I can see what way things will generally go. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Perhaps its time to reevaluate the use of grenade launchers for honor guard, or perhaps the use of larger units on landraiders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Perhaps its time to reevaluate the use of grenade launchers for honor guard, or perhaps the use of larger units on landraiders? I'd definitely be interested in seeing how the small squad with AGLs performs on the table, especially with things like Overwatch shooting. Seems like if the HG are charged they can fire two shots from bolters, plus the AGLs in krak mode. They're just so expensive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Even with the new rules I don't rate the Aux. Grenade Launchers squad wide since they are so expensive. If they were 5pts per model they might be worth it some times, but at three times that amount... No way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Even with the new rules I don't rate the Aux. Grenade Launchers squad wide since they are so expensive. If they were 5pts per model they might be worth it some times, but at three times that amount... No way. Agreed. Honor are expensive to begin with so upgrades must be kept at a minimum. The banner is too cost-effective to ignore and a relic blade for the Champion is about all you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 agreed with the above, id also say no more than 2 axes tbh, those power weapons are just too handy to be striking at I1 at the moment ive got 4 HG set up as: champ with relic blade ancient with banner and sword 2 HG with axes i want to get a 5th HG but im going to model him a sword somehow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger87 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 agreed with the above, id also say no more than 2 axes tbh, those power weapons are just too handy to be striking at I1 at the moment ive got 4 HG set up as: champ with relic blade ancient with banner and sword 2 HG with axes i want to get a 5th HG but im going to model him a sword somehow I'd be a bit careful with that, with initiative steps the way they are, you might lose the banner soon as he will be the only I4 guy out there (with the Champ challenging). But generally, I think that will be the typical setup. I have the same, (basically the Calgar box: champion with RB, banner with sword and 2 axes) but also 2 power sword HG (sicarius and emperor's champion conversions) and maybe I will proxy my company champion and AoBR captain conversion to make up a larger squad. Actually, I'm quite eager to use them, but since I use Calgar, I think I might have to invest into another champion so I can run 2 small squads rather than 1 large one :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I'd go swords all the way - there is no reason to send Honor Guard against other 2+ save units. That is what Terminators are for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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