Captain Idaho Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I completely agree Honour Guard shouldn't be fighting against other 2+ save units. We do have the problem that models might already be built and units finished! I've got 5 Honour Guard with Axes! Against infantry they still rock even striking last, since wounding on a 3+ against T4 is very useful. But I do agree, striking last can mean you lose attacks from lucky hits or even just 6 normal attacks etc. I'm not changing the unit armament yet though, as I want to see if some unique weapons come about with a new Space Marine Codex. After all, a couple Halberds would be nice if we can poach them from those naughty Grey Knights! In the mean time, I think we can still get power axes to work, just by choosing our targets sensibly. 20 Orks could be a problem as you might lose a couple models first since the Champion will be fighting the Nob (and should be killing it too) so my usual squad with 3 Axes and a Power Weapon and Master with Relic Blade but discounting the Champion will only kill roughly 4 or so models before the Orks strike back. Hmm. Maybe I'll have to get converting a couple power swords anyway and not wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 it might be worth noting (i hope ive got this right), the champ doesnt replace hiw Pw with the relic blade, its in addition. so you could say the champ has an axe as his Pw and let him strike with the relic blade only using the axe when AP2 is required. just have everyone else with swords. it could be of use during challenges too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunslinger87 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 it might be worth noting (i hope ive got this right), the champ doesnt replace hiw Pw with the relic blade, its in addition.so you could say the champ has an axe as his Pw and let him strike with the relic blade only using the axe when AP2 is required. just have everyone else with swords. it could be of use during challenges too You got that exactly right and I expect that will be the common practice. Otherwise the PW is a waste. You might also try a lance for the strength bonus on the charge, or even a maul... but basically anything other than a sword :-) Edit: actually no.. if you have a relic blade the other two are pointless :-D So just the axe :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Well the power weapon is free, so leaving it as a power sword is not hurting you even if you rarely use it. Modelling it as a power axe could help though, but most of the time you'd be using the relic blade :( AP2 is always useful, so modelling it as a power axe hurts no one apart from baddies. By the way bannus, I seriously contemplated cutting my power axes off my Honour Guardians and replacing them with other weapons, and it's your fault! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 ive found a good way to make gladii, if that helps Idaho? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I might just make some new Honour Guard models, so I might not need them for now, but I will contact you in the future when I get round to making new models. Cheers mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 if its ok for me to hijack this thread. which is a better armament for the CM relic blade or dual lightening claws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I'd go swords all the way - there is no reason to send Honor Guard against other 2+ save units. That is what Terminators are for. Doesn't the champion retain his power weapon even if he takes a relic blade? If yes, I'm thinking of making his power weapon an axe. I'm trying to figure out my list with honour guard.. adding a LRC is making me make hard choices elsewhere. (losing vindy's) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I'm sticking with the Landraider standard pattern for the Lascannons. Least gives me some options against fliers and I keep the long range firepower I've lost from the list. If you're losing Vindicators I'm not sure what void the Landraider can fill though, but maybe a Redeemer since it intimidates opponents just like Vindicators? So what builds are people using with their Honour Guard? I'm tempted to convert a new squad of Honour Guard (I can't hurt my already finished squad) and the weapons they get are still up in the air... Even Spears is tickling my fancy because they can charge and get S5 and AP3 (best of both worlds!) and on other turns I still have 10 Relic Blade attacks and 5 Power Weapon attacks to boot. In fact, Power Lances (spears) is feeling very tactical for a unit operating with a Landraider. Here's my two builds: Current Honour Guard set up Chapter Master - Relic Blade, Storm Shield and Articifer Armour (points allowing) Chapter Chapion - Power Sword, Combat Blade and Relic Blade Ancient (Honour Guard with Chapter Banner) - Power Sword 3x Honour Guard - Power Axes Theory Hammer proposal Chapter Master - Relic Blade, Storm Shield and Articifer Armour (points allowing) Chapter Chapion - Power Sword, Combat Blade and Relic Blade Ancient (Honour Guard with Chapter Banner) - Power Sword 3x Honour Guard - Power Lances I'm actually liking the proposed unit. Plenty of attacks on the charge still, high strength and no negatives until the next turn or receiving a charge when they go down to AP4, but then I don't see many opponents with armour save 3+ could best the unit with those Relic Blades and Power Sword attacks anyway. ***EDIT*** if its ok for me to hijack this thread.which is a better armament for the CM relic blade or dual lightening claws? I still think Relic Blade, but then that's because of the strength bonus over Lightning Claws and the pairing of a Storm Shield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Josef Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I have always had a problem with sticking Honour Guard in a Land Raider. Remember that the buffs Honour Guard receive from the new rules are also the buffs that Hammernators receive. To use the 'Nators properly you had to take a Landraider which totalled up the squad to 450pts. I used my Honour Guard as an alternative as you only had to pay 35 points for their transport which if you were going to take a Chapter Master any ways left you with a whopping 415 points to spend on the unit. You could make an extremely dangerous unit for that and you could keep them hidden in the Rhino until you were ready to launch your assault. Now that we can't assault out of a Rhino stationary or otherwise buying a Landraider for them seems to miss the point for me; you're always going to get more mileage out of the Hammernators for the same points cost. Don't get me wrong, since I started using them if you cut my arm off I would bleed the colour guard with a hint of honour but the changes to the rules regarding assaulting from vehicles has hurt their options perhaps more than we realise. A small unit disembarking and hiding behind the hull of a Rhino seems to be the best option we can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Theory Hammer proposalChapter Master - Relic Blade, Storm Shield and Articifer Armour (points allowing) Chapter Chapion - Power Sword, Combat Blade and Relic Blade Ancient (Honour Guard with Chapter Banner) - Power Sword 3x Honour Guard - Power Lances i like that, id still go with the axe on the champ though, imagine facing an enemy captain (in TDA or arty) with sword/lightening claw or something, the axe would give you the edge and his AP3 would bounce. anyway i like the power lance idea, but what exactly does a power lance look like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 There is still the benefit of not having to strike last and being slightly cheaper. I think using Power Axes will make the unit less useful over Terminators, since their strength is NOT striking last automatically. Hence why I'm leaning towards Honour Guard with Power Spears (Lances). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Theory Hammer proposalChapter Master - Relic Blade, Storm Shield and Articifer Armour (points allowing) Chapter Chapion - Power Sword, Combat Blade and Relic Blade Ancient (Honour Guard with Chapter Banner) - Power Sword 3x Honour Guard - Power Lances i like that, id still go with the axe on the champ though, imagine facing an enemy captain (in TDA or arty) with sword/lightening claw or something, the axe would give you the edge and his AP3 would bounce. anyway i like the power lance idea, but what exactly does a power lance look like? That's exactly what I was thinking about the champ. He's getting the best of both worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 since ill be replacing the odd axe wielding HG with a sword, i can use the axe for the champs off hand.. it should work alright (i hope) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I have always had a problem with sticking Honour Guard in a Land Raider. Remember that the buffs Honour Guard receive from the new rules are also the buffs that Hammernators receive. Do remember thought that Honour Guard get a lot more attacks than Terminators, strike at I4 (with power swords) and can contribute to the army with the banner. Also, your HQ is already bought. Against most infantry units, all you need is a bucket load of AP3 attacks, which Honour Guard give for cheaper than dual LC Terminators. As for loadout, I'm stick with Idaho pattern but with power swords: 1 Chapter Master w/ relic blade, storm shield, digi weapons and artificer armour. 1 Chapter Champion w/ relic blade, power sword, bolt pistol, bolter. 1 Honour Guard w/ Chapter Banner, power sword, bolt pistol, bolter. 3x Honour Guard w/ power sword, bolt pistol, bolter. And then once I get it, a Land Raider or Land Raider Crusader with extra armour and MM. Reasoning behind choices. The CM is my normal load out plus artificer armour, which got a boost and is now pretty much a must take. The Chapter Champion is modelled like that, and the power sword and bolt pistol does let him have a choice of 5 S6 attacks of 6 S4 attacks. The others are all modelled like that, personally I prefer the aesthetics of power swords over axes, and this unit will look to hit infantry rather than elites. As for transport, an LRC if I replace my Sternguard, to make up for firepower. Or a normal Land Raider if I replace my Dread and Vindicator with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 The others are all modelled like that, personally I prefer the aesthetics of power swords over axes, and this unit will look to hit infantry rather than elites. You don't think you'll face more IC's and characters with terminator armor? I know I've switched all my Wolf Guard pack leaders to TDA. Also all my IC's will have runic armor (+2 armor save ). What's the benefit of the power sword on the champ if he has the relic blade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 The others are all modelled like that, personally I prefer the aesthetics of power swords over axes, and this unit will look to hit infantry rather than elites. You don't think you'll face more IC's and characters with terminator armor? I know I've switched all my Wolf Guard pack leaders to TDA. Also all my IC's will have runic armor (+2 armor save ). What's the benefit of the power sword on the champ if he has the relic blade? You can swap out to the sword for an additional attack. I still think the axe or maul would be a better bet for those few situations worth switching to the "back up," but its his choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 As for loadout, I'm stick with Idaho pattern but with power swords: I think Idaho Pattern is too indistinct now that Power Weapons have diversified. I'm further refining the unit and I think it's going to be the use of Power Lances to the "normal" Honour Guard. I seriously think it's an weapon flying under the radar right now as a decent assault unit won't be counter charged very often by something that troubling and you still have offensive power from the Chapter Master and Champion. On the charge the unit is all AP3 and the normal models get S5! ^_^ That's going to be my new Idaho Pattern! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaced Hulk Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Instead of spending loads of points on a Land Raider, I'm considering spending loads of points on a large HG deployed by drop pod instead. Something like this: Chapter Master with artificer armour, iron halo, storm bolter & power fist (168 pts) Librarian with terminator armour, force axe, storm bolter & psychic hood. Psychic powers: Force Dome & Gate of Infinity (130 pts) Honour Guard (330 pts) - Chapter Champion with relic blade, power axe & boltgun - Marine with Chapter Banner, boltgun & power axe - 3 Marines with boltguns & power swords - 3 Marines with boltguns & power lances - Drop pod (35 pts) The unit has a reasonable amount to firepower when they drop (12 shots at 24", or 20 shots at 12") which would also be useful if they need to overwatch. I've gone for a mix of different power weapon types to hopefully give them an edge (pun intended :() no matter who they're fighting. I think the Librarian is quite a key aspect of the squad, casting Force Dome to increase their resilience, or using Gate to redeploy them after their initial strike. He'll also boost their Deny the Witch saves as well. All the AP2 weapons are purposefully on the 'key' members of the unit, with the intention of using the Initiative Pile In mechanic to (theoretically at least) protect them from being early casualties. Arming the Chapter Master with a power fist might seem like a waste of his higher Init, but I see him in primarily an anti-terminator/dreadnought/monstrous creature role, while the Honour Guard themselves take on enemy rank & file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 spaced hulk, thats alot of eggs in one basket mate, and tbh it wouldnt scare me facing it as youd have little else to worry about. I think Idaho Pattern is too indistinct now that Power Weapons have diversified. I'm further refining the unit and I think it's going to be the use of Power Lances to the "normal" Honour Guard. That's going to be my new Idaho Pattern! im torn between this or plain swords, if i were using a LR the new idaho pattern would be the better choice, but i still intend on using rhinos.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaced Hulk Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 spaced hulk, thats alot of eggs in one basket mate, and tbh it wouldnt scare me facing it as youd have little else to worry about. It's only about the same sort of points as a smaller HG squad in a Land Raider though. To put it in context, here's the rest of the list: Night Watch Space Marines: 1750 pts HQ Chapter Master (168 pts) - Artificer armour, iron halo, storm bolter & power fist. Librarian (130 pts) - Terminator armour, psychic hood, storm bolter & force axe. - Psychic powers: Force Dome & Gate of Infinity. Honour Guard (330 pts) - Chapter Champion with relic blade, power axe & boltgun. - Marine with Chapter Banner, boltgun & power axe - 3 Marines with boltguns & power swords - 3 Marines with boltguns & power lances - Drop pod (35 pts) ELITES Terminator Squad (460 pts) - Srg with storm bolter & power sword. - 2 terminators with cyclone missile launchers, storm bolters & power fists. - 7 terminators with storm bolters & power fists. TROOPS Tactical Squad (173 pts) - Srg with storm bolter. - 9 marines: 1x flamer, 1x missile launcher, 7x boltgun. Tactical Squad (178 pts) - Srg with storm bolter. - 9 marines: 1x meltagun, 1x missile launcher, 7x boltgun. - Drop pod (35 pts) FAST ATTACK Attack Bike Squadron (100 pts) - 2 attack bikes, each with multi-melta & twin linked boltguns. Landspeeder Tornado (70 pts) - Multi-melta & heavy flamer. Landspeeder Tornado (70 pts) - Multi-melta & heavy bolter. Total = 1749 pts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 The others are all modelled like that, personally I prefer the aesthetics of power swords over axes, and this unit will look to hit infantry rather than elites. You don't think you'll face more IC's and characters with terminator armor? I know I've switched all my Wolf Guard pack leaders to TDA. Also all my IC's will have runic armor (+2 armor save ). What's the benefit of the power sword on the champ if he has the relic blade? DEF has explained the Champion question, I also pre-emptively answered that in my initial post. :) But as I've said, they're already modelled with swords. I hate the look and idea of axes, so I wouldn't willingly stick one on my models. I really don't care about the rules, for me my Honour Guard are a centrepiece unit, so I want them to look good. So that means swords. I'll work around their weakness to Terminators by using plasma units, Vindicators etc, and do my best to pit them against the Terminators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 The others are all modelled like that, personally I prefer the aesthetics of power swords over axes, and this unit will look to hit infantry rather than elites. You don't think you'll face more IC's and characters with terminator armor? I know I've switched all my Wolf Guard pack leaders to TDA. Also all my IC's will have runic armor (+2 armor save ). What's the benefit of the power sword on the champ if he has the relic blade? You can swap out to the sword for an additional attack. I still think the axe or maul would be a better bet for those few situations worth switching to the "back up," but its his choice. The axe will also get an additional attack, correct? It's unwieldy but not a specialist weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinholt Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 The axe will also get an additional attack, correct? It's unwieldy but not a specialist weapon. This and cheapness are the main value of axes compared to power fists and thunder hammers, correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 The others are all modelled like that, personally I prefer the aesthetics of power swords over axes, and this unit will look to hit infantry rather than elites. You don't think you'll face more IC's and characters with terminator armor? I know I've switched all my Wolf Guard pack leaders to TDA. Also all my IC's will have runic armor (+2 armor save ). What's the benefit of the power sword on the champ if he has the relic blade? You can swap out to the sword for an additional attack. I still think the axe or maul would be a better bet for those few situations worth switching to the "back up," but its his choice. The axe will also get an additional attack, correct? It's unwieldy but not a specialist weapon. It wouldn't strike last though. Not great but at least there's a reason! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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