Honour Guard Squads

[Bannus]

I'm thinking the best mix for Honor Guard would be the following:

Chapter Champion with Relic Blade and power ax.

Standard bearer with power sword.

All other Honor Guard with power swords.

If points allow, upgrade one (maybe two) additional Honor Guard to have Relic Blades (and subsequently change power swords to axes).

 

The reason being this:

This unit excels at slicing and dicing other armies "basic units" which will be 3+ save or worse. Those few units with a 2+ save should be avoided - but an ax or two in the unit will help as a "contingency" if they do run into such a unit.

 

There will definitely be an increase in 2+ saves among unit leaders and IC's (as wargear charts permit), so the Champion will definitely need the ax when challenging these folks.

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is, it's mutual destruction for the Champion to attack at Initiative 1. I suppose both dying is better than just the Champion.

 

I was thinking though, would we really have a multitude of 2+ saves to contend against unless we fight entire squads of them (i.e. Terminators and Mega-Nobz). Space Wolves can do it I guess, as can Chaos Marines?

 

So I guess I just don't see the Champion as needing to cut through 2+ armour that often.

 

Of course, I will probably create a new Chapter Champion one day and he'll probably get a power axe in addition to his Relic blade because I appreciate the option! :)

[Grizzly_bear]

I lOve honour guard and I run 5 of then with pedro ATM and in the process of adding 3more to get near the 10man mark....I like pedro due to his +1 attack...I run all mine with power swords and my champion with TH...worked well so far for me.

 

This threads been a great read though on tactics.

 

Rob

[greatcrusade08]

hmm, im not keen on pedro tbh, his +1A is ok, but since it doesnt stack with the banner, its not much of a benefit over a standard CM and HG with banner.

pedro only has power armour, so with I1 all those PW opponents are going to slice him open

[Lord Ragnarok]

hmm, im not keen on pedro tbh, his +1A is ok, but since it doesnt stack with the banner, its not much of a benefit over a standard CM and HG with banner.

pedro only has power armour, so with I1 all those PW opponents are going to slice him open

 

Yeah, I was pondering this. I may have to get rid of Pedro and get a Chapter Master for my HG. Which takes away the two scoring sternies. Although I would be able to hopefully have the sergeant step in on any challenges with his LC.

[Bannus]

Thing is, it's mutual destruction for the Champion to attack at Initiative 1. I suppose both dying is better than just the Champion.

Like he was going to beat his opponent's initiative anyway? :P

[greatcrusade08]

Thing is, it's mutual destruction for the Champion to attack at Initiative 1. I suppose both dying is better than just the Champion.

Like he was going to beat his opponent's initiative anyway? ;)

 

with 2+ armour very few opponents are going to kill him at initiative, if your fighting an opponent with 2+ aswell then an axe will even up the fight.

[Captain Idaho]

Be honest guys; what do people think about my plan for power lances on my basic models in this unit? When charging they are clearly superior to power swords, but is the unit powerful enough to not suffer too much if charged by power armoured models in an opponent's turn?

 

See, I'm not sure. AP4 and S4 means anything less than a Space Marine will still be at a disadvantage against the squad, but how much of a risk are Space Marine assault units?

 

Since the Champion will generally be in challenges, that leaves the the Chapter Master and his 4 Relic Blade attacks and the Chapter Banner bearer and his power sword to thin opposing ranks (averaging around 3 dead models between them) and then the 12 power lance attacks are going to average a single additional casuality. That's only four, outside the Champion killing his opponent (probably in just about all cases).

 

Is that enough? I suppose with all power swords the squad only averages an extra 2 kills at best anyway, so it's probably enough.

 

I'm leaning towards saying yes to the Power Lances, but I'm an Ultramarine and therefore like to make a good decision based upon all the facts! :D

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'd swap one extra guy back to a sword from the lances, just so that in the event of being charged or a second round of combat, you've got some extra AP3 punch in there. The lances are good, but there are lots of things that can foul up the idea of just overrunning the target unit on the charge: Reanimation Protocols, fighting a 20-man mob of orks, Insane Courage on the last few surviving dudes, so on and so forth.

[Gunslinger87]

Be honest guys; what do people think about my plan for power lances on my basic models in this unit? When charging they are clearly superior to power swords, but is the unit powerful enough to not suffer too much if charged by power armoured models in an opponent's turn?

 

See, I'm not sure. AP4 and S4 means anything less than a Space Marine will still be at a disadvantage against the squad, but how much of a risk are Space Marine assault units?

 

Since the Champion will generally be in challenges, that leaves the the Chapter Master and his 4 Relic Blade attacks and the Chapter Banner bearer and his power sword to thin opposing ranks (averaging around 3 dead models between them) and then the 12 power lance attacks are going to average a single additional casuality. That's only four, outside the Champion killing his opponent (probably in just about all cases).

 

Is that enough? I suppose with all power swords the squad only averages an extra 2 kills at best anyway, so it's probably enough.

 

I'm leaning towards saying yes to the Power Lances, but I'm an Ultramarine and therefore like to make a good decision based upon all the facts! ;)

 

For me, the point of an honour guard squad isn't getting absolutely the best output possible. With charging from land raiders almost necessary this edition, assault termies are probably going to be better. But with power weapons being the way they are, I think it's a wonderful idea to bring in a real variety. Have 2 guys with lances to stand beside the Chapter Master, use the two axes on the traditional honour guard models, keep the power sword on banner, relic blade on champion. Additional models can then be 'axe-sword-lance' depending on what you expect to do the most. But all of those weapons have their advantages. Honour guard units with a powerful HQ should be versatile and not one trick ponys. You should enjoy playing them differently in different games. Have the guy striking last be heroic in one game, get that extra wound on a 3 from the lance in another. They wil still be effective, no matter how you use them, just with more options and (for me) more fun.

 

I definitely won't be modelling my entire honour guard with any one weapon. For that one expected situation where that particular type will excel, I will have countless battles where I'll be happy for that extra punch against a surprise charge by ork nobs, or even that one guys with the giant maul I'm planning (think Chaos rising) getting an extra kill when he smashes a bunch of gaunts.

 

To be on topic, I would favour the power swords, since they eliminate the constant worry about when an assault is going to end, since that may mean being charged and wasting my power weapons, but a couple of lances in there will definitely add variety.

[greatcrusade08]

how do people feel about long handled swords? i could use them as either swords or lances without having to switch (and more importantly buy another) model

[Gunslinger87]

I don't think people will be that pedantic about power weapons at least at the start. I mean, everybody will know that you probably built your models for 5th edition and aren't going to scrap them all immediately just so your power weapons are WISIWYG.

 

I feel sorry for Chaos Terminators :-D

[Grizzly_bear]

hmm, im not keen on pedro tbh, his +1A is ok, but since it doesnt stack with the banner, its not much of a benefit over a standard CM and HG with banner.

pedro only has power armour, so with I1 all those PW opponents are going to slice him open

 

Very true on the +3 for Pedro but when it comes down to it I never take a banner, it saves me 25 points and I gain the +1 attack from Kantor....

 

When I make the other 5 HG on the charge I'm getting +5 attacks per HG +4 for CC and pedro they have a TH and PF between them. So 45 S4 power wepon attacks along with 8 S8 attacks is nothing to be sniffed at in my books... :-D

 

Rob

[Captain Idaho]

For me, the point of an honour guard squad isn't getting absolutely the best output possible. With charging from land raiders almost necessary this edition, assault termies are probably going to be better. But with power weapons being the way they are, I think it's a wonderful idea to bring in a real variety. Have 2 guys with lances to stand beside the Chapter Master, use the two axes on the traditional honour guard models, keep the power sword on banner, relic blade on champion. Additional models can then be 'axe-sword-lance' depending on what you expect to do the most. But all of those weapons have their advantages. Honour guard units with a powerful HQ should be versatile and not one trick ponys. You should enjoy playing them differently in different games. Have the guy striking last be heroic in one game, get that extra wound on a 3 from the lance in another. They wil still be effective, no matter how you use them, just with more options and (for me) more fun.

 

I definitely won't be modelling my entire honour guard with any one weapon. For that one expected situation where that particular type will excel, I will have countless battles where I'll be happy for that extra punch against a surprise charge by ork nobs, or even that one guys with the giant maul I'm planning (think Chaos rising) getting an extra kill when he smashes a bunch of gaunts.

 

To be on topic, I would favour the power swords, since they eliminate the constant worry about when an assault is going to end, since that may mean being charged and wasting my power weapons, but a couple of lances in there will definitely add variety.

 

Interesting idea. I don't know about having a too varied unit though, since it does run the risk of becoming too jack of all trades and with it potentially a little blunt. Bearing in mind I play lots of random opponents and tournaments and can't tailor my lists or unit equipment to the most appropriate.

 

I guess it's just how we are differing in the squad's purpose. I want my squad to smash aside as many units as possile like true heroes!

 

The strength of Honour Guard in this edition, for me, is tearing through anything other than 2+ save units or equivilent tough to kill units, particularly Troops choices. Traditionally this meant they were extremely good at killing power armoured troops, and I still think this is the case. I just have to be careful not to dilute this ability when counter charged.

 

To this end I guess it would help if I list what power armoured infantry we can expect to be charged by, barring desparation:

 

Vanguard Veterans

Khorne Berzerkers

Plague Marines

Chosen (however rare)

Wolf Guard (again, rare unless in Terminator armour I reckon)

Assault Marines

Command Squad

 

From what I see here, of the units which are dangerous to the Honour Guard the most, they are likely to be in small numbers or slow. Vanguard Veterans, for example, are rarely taken so my Honour Guard should out class them thanks to the Master, even with AP4 weapons.

 

Khorne Berzerkers are a threat as are Plague Marines, but both of them should be easier to be attacked by ME rather than them unless the Chaos player takes a Landraider (which I'd prefer instead of Oblierators!).

 

All the rest are in low numbers generally (e.g. Command squad) so the few kills the Master bags will offset the lack of AP3 weapons in takin three Lances instead.

 

Or am I just over thinking it? :lol:

[greatcrusade08]

i think your onto something actually.. generally you wont find many axes or fists, even if you do they are likely to be on champions/sergeants and the chapter champ can chew them a new one in a challenge.

im growing more comfortable with the idea of lances every time we discuss them tbh

[Koremu]

how do people feel about long handled swords? i could use them as either swords or lances without having to switch (and more importantly buy another) model

I know a really cool & easy way to model Naginata

[greatcrusade08]

how do people feel about long handled swords? i could use them as either swords or lances without having to switch (and more importantly buy another) model

I know a really cool & easy way to model Naginata

 

i think a naginata is more akin to a halberd, forgive me if im istaken though.

the idea i had was taking the current HG model, cutting off the axe head leaving the powered cell (if you know what i mean) and attaching a gladius in its place.

the handle should be the same length as the sword itself

[DarkGuard]

Idaho, with Land Raiders being a must you should be pulling most of the charges anyway. Of course, counter-charges could be hurtful and will happen at some point, which is why I reckon you should maybe have 2 or 3 with lances and the rest with power weapons. It just means that you can still deal more damage in latter turns of combat and receive charges better. And it won't be too jack of all trades then, it just means you'll be covering all contingencies, you'll still mainly be anti-MEQ.

 

Think of it this way, you have the lances for the initial charge, and then after that charge the swords step forward and take a shot, kind of like a well drilled unit/phalanx etc. :)

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah, I have 3 power lances planned, with a power weapon and two Relic blades, though of course we have the problem with half the Relic blade attacks going against a character unless the opponent declines the challenge (unlikely in most circumstances).

 

I think the unit, minus the challenge, averages 4 kills when being charged by WS4/T4, 3+ sv models at I4 or less. With power swords this would have been 6. Not bad still, since opposing assault units will likely not have too many AP2 weapons.

 

One thing I've noticed from studying the rule book: Against small, elite units that have a few AP2 weapons I'd put wounds on the 3 wound Master first. Why? Well he can take Look out sir! Rolls to save himself from failed wounds, but also soak up AP2 wounds on his Storm Shield.

 

***Edit*** Just to confirm what I'm saying about wound allocation here, because Look out Sir works after the process of wound allocation, it's wise to use the Look out Sir! rolls on all non-AP2 wounds just to minimise the potential for poor rolls getting through the Master, so he can soak up as many AP2 wounds as possible.

[Maxtermynd]

Hail and welcome brothers! I've been recently toying around with a possible Honor Guard build that I haven't seen brought up here yet. C:SM already has plenty of tools to take on small, elite squads in a much better fashion than Honor Guard can (re: Assault Terminators, Sternguard), but one thing it doesn't do very well is take on hordes, especially if they get to CC range. This is becoming increasingly important as large fearless squads have become much harder to break and can mob down our smaller numbers.

 

For this, enter the power maul. With 5 attacks on the charge at strength 6 and AP 4 the Honor Guard squad can now threaten both tanks and infantry, and the average guard will take 2 lightly armored foes down with him. Give a relic blade to the champ and he'll take out pfists all day long. We suffer a bit in CC with other power armoured enemies, but by going back to the rhino rush tactic we can keep the odds in our favor and more importantly get stuck in CC on their turn so we can hide from enemy shooting.

 

8 Honour Guard with PMauls, Banner, add in a champion with relic blade and a Rhino comes to 400 pts, which also makes them cheaper than their terminator armored and land raider bound brethren. You can always just hope that your Rhino gets shot out from under you after the first turn, leaving the field open to rush in and bash some skulls in. Plus, it gives more bodies to play with in case sheer numbers or plasma fire comes knocking.

 

Anyway, thought I'd toss that in the pot for some discussion. As for me, the idea of making an Angry Marines honor guard with nail bats for power mauls might be too good an opportunity to pass up...

[greatcrusade08]

***Edit*** Just to confirm what I'm saying about wound allocation here, because Look out Sir works after the process of wound allocation, it's wise to use the Look out Sir! rolls on all non-AP2 wounds just to minimise the potential for poor rolls getting through the Master, so he can soak up as many AP2 wounds as possible.

 

IIRC if its the 2+ saves you can use the look out sir after youve failed saves, but if your using the inv storm shield, youd have to use look out sir before you take the saves as its technically a different armour group then.

its to stop abuse from getting a better save from ICs and essentially getting inv saves on the HG.

i believe thats how it works anyway

[Captain Idaho]

It is. Basically if your unit has the same armour save you roll the dice together and then allocate the failed saves to the closest model (or a chosen base conact model in assault), which if a character means you can take Look out sir! rolls for each unsaved saved allocated to said character until he dies, you run out of models to take Look out Sir! hits or there aren't any wounds left.

 

If the saves are different, then you need to allocate the wounds needing saved first then take the saves or Look out Sir! rolls. It's where the benefit comes from with Honour Guard; put the wounds on the Master and use Look out Sir to spread the non-AP2 hits around.

[greatcrusade08]

If the saves are different, then you need to allocate the wounds needing saved first then take the saves or Look out Sir! rolls. It's where the benefit comes from with Honour Guard; put the wounds on the Master and use Look out Sir to spread the non-AP2 hits around.

 

oh yes that is good, having a 2+ look out sir means your odds on to pass it should your opponent fire lances or something that needs a sucidal leap to block.. its probably best to have the CM at the front at all times

i was hoping calgar would auto pass look out sir with god of war, that would be awesome :D

[Captain Idaho]

The cheekiest Honour Guard Deathstar is Calgar, Lysander and 5 models with a Chapter Banner. You can spread the wounds between Calgar and Lysander fairly safely and get so many attacks it'll turn you into a super villan with all the insane cackling you'll be doing!

[greatcrusade08]

true but then you reach a version of Kingsley’s Law (more is worse), more specifically the more something costs in points the less useful it becomes.

everything must be considered in terms of a cost:benefit ratio.

 

That unit will wreck face but its pretty much all your army will have, so will be shot to bits PDQ