look out sir query

[greatcrusade08]

so one thing i need to get straight in my teeny tiny brain.

 

look out sir is 4+ for characters, if successful another sloppy Jo from in the ranks takes the bullet instead.

it then says in the IC section that independant characters can pass a look out sir roll on a 2+.

 

is this a distinction between unit leader type characters and indpeandant characters in that sergeants only get a 4+ and captains get a 2+, or is it saying that an independant character may attempt to save another with a look out sir??

 

i hope that makes sense

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

He passes Look Out, Sir on a 2+ as long as he has the Independent Character rule, as the poor Joes are more likely to save him or something.

[greatcrusade08]

that just sounds a little too good though, or am i the only one?

imagine calgar attached to a large squad of guardsmen and placed at the front.

 

all shooting has to be resolved against T4 and termy armour and at the last minute a flak armoured gaurdsmen takes the only wound that sticks.

[Grey Mage]

2+ is vs ranged attacks, 4+ is in CC was my reading of it.

[SeattleDV8]

Nope both the shooting rules (pg.16) and the CC rules (pg.26) are the same , a 4+ for characters.

 

The IC rules (pg.39) give an IC a 2+ Look out sir.

 

Greatcrusade

all shooting has to be resolved against T4 and termy armour and at the last minute a flak armoured gaurdsmen takes the only wound that sticks.

Pg. 14 Multipe Toughness Values

... roll to Wound using the Toughness characteristic that is in the majority in the target unit.

So it would be resolved vs. T3

[Dam13n]

The way it reads is that characters have a 4+ look out sir while independent characters have a 2+.

 

Of course a challenge in combat wouldn't allow you to pass off wounds because it is in essence a

seperate 2 model combat.

 

With regards the "Calgar at the front of the Guardsmen" tactic, it would seem that you would roll to

wound against the "majority toughness" of the target unit, then determine "look out sir" to see how

many wounds can be passed off. Saves would then be taken by the models taking the wounds, so

the cannon fodder guardsmen would not benefit from Calgar's armour save. As such, the "Calgar

Shield" tactic has no real benefit that I can see.

 

I'm doing this from my memory, as I don't have the book in front of me. As such I'm not sure just

how many "look out sir" attempts can be made in each phase. Plus I could be completely wrong,

(wouldn't be the first time. :-P)

 

Laterz...

 

Edit: Ninja'ed and corrected appropriately...

[greatcrusade08]

your right about majority toughness although look out sir is taken on unsaved wounds.

 

which means an Ic with a 2+ save can be used as a reall good shield and some bodybag tac marine can take his failed wounds for him.

just sounds a little OTT tbh

[sp4rky]

Look Out, Sir! can be taken on each wound allocated to a character (so there's no limit on how many times you can do this).

 

I'm confused by this though - it is done on unsaved wounds, right? So Calgar can roll a 1 and then Private Redshirt steps up and takes it?

[DarkGuard]

Well Look Out, Sir says for "a Wound (or unsaved Wound)" being allocated to one of your characters, if you pass it's resolved against someone else.

 

So come to think of it, I think that statement is linked to Fast Dice. If say it's a Librarian in a Sternguard unit, you roll the armour saves first, take from the front, and if your Libby comes under threat you then Look Out, Sir.

 

If it's the Calgar and Guardsmen unit, you take the saves against Calgar due to mixed armour saves etc, and then Look Out, Sir if he fails one, effectively giving the Guardsmen a 2+ save.

 

At least that's how I interpret it.

[thade]

Just to be clear, Characters that are engaged in a Challenge can NOT benefit from Look Out, Sir! (p64 under Fighting a Challenge.)

 

Characters get a Look Out, Sir roll at 4+; ICs get the roll at 2+. The rule itself (on page 16) seems to imply that you can take a Look Out, Sir before or even after taking (and failing) a save for the character...

 

When a Wound (or unsaved Wound) is allocated to one of your characters...

 

If you make the check, another model that is both in the same unit and within 6" takes the hit; the wound is resolved against them. What I get out of that is this: either you Look Out, Sir pre-save and the self-sacrificing model gets to leverage his/her own saves against the incoming shot/swing, OR the Character fails his roll and the self-sacrificing model does NOT get his/her own save against the incoming shot/swing...they just take the wound.

 

This can really save a character's bacon, helping them at least get to Melee.

[DarkGuard]

I think it gives both because of the different ways of allocating and resolving wounds. Same save units would take Look Out, Sir after as you've already rolled the saves. Mixed units that use Fast Dice would do so before I feel, as that's when you've allocated the wound.

 

Or at least that's how I've read it.

[thade]

I think it gives both because of the different ways of allocating and resolving wounds. Same save units would take Look Out, Sir after as you've already rolled the saves. Mixed units that use Fast Dice would do so before I feel, as that's when you've allocated the wound.

 

Or at least that's how I've read it.

Hmmmm maaaaaybe.

 

I never thought I'd ask this question in a million years...but...how does it work in Fantasy? @____@

 

It'd certainly be nice if both the Character and the mook got save rolls; seems almost too good to me though.

[Jacinda]

I think it gives both because of the different ways of allocating and resolving wounds. Same save units would take Look Out, Sir after as you've already rolled the saves. Mixed units that use Fast Dice would do so before I feel, as that's when you've allocated the wound.

 

Or at least that's how I've read it.

YES!

OK, I think I grok in fulness now. One thing that had me hung up was how you could have an unallocated unsaved wound. Still hung on 5th way of thinking I guess. With Fast Dice, if the whole unit has the same saves then no wounds are allocated until after the saves.

 

Now I see what the line is saying. It happens at allocation. Whether the wound is saved or not does not matter, it just depends on when it is allocated. Cool. I can live with that. So if you allocate a wound, then roll for save and then finally try to pass it off it's too late. You roll for LOS when the wound is first allocated.

 

Ummm ... right? Or am I off in left field again?

[thade]

Jacinda, that does make sense. How about that.

[thade]

I take it back. Here's the example I wrote up for consideration (initially to test out Jacinda et al's theory):

 

I need to break out of 5th Ed thinking.

 

Wounds are not allocated in 6th Ed until after saves are thrown due to "Fast Dice". So, here's an example: a Space Wolf unit with like 3 Wolf Guards in TDA, Logan in TDA, and six wolf guards in power armor.

 

Logan and the terminators are in front and they take a mess of bolter fire. You have four guys in front with the same saves (Logan and 3 WG in TDA) and so you Fast Dice roll your saves in batches of four...and you roll poorly and the three WG eat it on your first roll. Now Logan is in front with the PA'd WG behind.

 

So, one at a time you roll each save (because Logan is 2+ and the PA guys are 3+).

 

If you PASS the save, no wound needs be allocated.

 

If you FAIL the save, the wound must be allocated...and Look Out, Sir! comes into affect.

 

If you FAILED that's an "unsaved Wound" and you must remove a wound/model per unsaved wound. No more saves seem to apply then.

 

ADDENDUM: To be clear, if Logan fails a save, the wound is now 'unsaved' and you need to lose a wound somewhere. If Look Out, Sir! is successful, the wound is lost by pulling a Wolf Guard (you already failed the save).

 

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more sense this makes. If everybody got BOTH saves that'd frankly be stupid...that's a re-roll, just about, for every save in a unit with a Character.

[Morollan]

That makes sense. For a given value of sense*

 

 

 

 

 

*one that doesn't mind that all SM armies are about 4 times more resilient now than they were a week or so ago

[Seahawk]

Wounds are not allocated in 6th Ed until after saves are thrown due to "Fast Dice".

As I have noted in my other thread, this only applies to shooting. In close combat, you allocate first, then roll for saves (then allocate again, but that's besides the point).

[DarkGuard]

That would appear to make the most sense in shooting terms, and also seems the fairest, well done for cracking that thade.

 

In relation to why Look Out, Sir says saved or unsaved (or whatever it says), I believe Seahawk''s most recent statement explains that. In combat allocation comes first, and you can still Look Out, Sir in combat. It's written that way so it'll apply to both situations.

[thade]

Wounds are not allocated in 6th Ed until after saves are thrown due to "Fast Dice".

As I have noted in my other thread, this only applies to shooting. In close combat, you allocate first, then roll for saves (then allocate again, but that's besides the point).

I mean, it is related, surely...but at least for simplicity (forget not the stalwart Brother Occam and his Razor-edged chainsword) I recommend treating it the same in both cases. It's probably not mentioned as a special case in Assault because, frankly, one of two things will be the case in Assault...

• Since you can choose what group saves first and pull models in the order you wish, your Character is in even less danger than he is if he's caught out of position in shooting.
  
• Why isn't your Character engaged in an awesome one-vs-one Challenge where he can't benefit from Look Out, Sir! anyway?
  

 

ADDENDUM: If you're about to pull your Captain (or whatever) because you failed that many saves and you have no other eligible models to take the fall, Look Out, Sir! time is upon you. It wouldn't be before that time.