Red Fury Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 So I was thinking about the SG and their Glaive Encarmines and how to use them in 6th. It got me thinking...what the heck is a 'glaive' anyway? So I looked it up in the dictionary and found the short definition is that they are a type of 'pole-arm'. A sharp blade attached to a long pole, like a pike or halberd or a lance. So by name alone, I think the SG should start rocking Lance PWs in 6th without any doubts of whether they can, or should be allowed to, have a lance weapon in the first place. The axe variants of the models even look very halberd-ish with extra long handles. I know this doesn't work with the 'master crafted makes it unique' crowd, but I'm not in that camp. Also, if you think the glaive is a lance weapon, do you need to remodel anything? If they are modeled with a glaive, then isn't that definition enough regardless if it looks like a sword-like or axe-like glaive, it's still a glaive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Your thinking relies on rules that you've created to define the weapons though, not GW. The rulebook doesnt allow us the opportunity to define a weapon by its name, but instead by what it looks like. That's very clear. There was also a discussion about the word Glaive and depending on the century Glaive meant different things. So, in short, I don't think theres much of any rules based argument there thats going to support you on any level. Last I checked the guys definitely had sword looking thingies and axe looking thingies. To completely ignore the "look and see" beyond both the weapon description and the conditions for look and see (not unique) is breaking both rules. edit: Anything else besides the name pushing you towards that thinking, matey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargent josh Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Good day brothers By the rule book, it counts as a "power weopon" which could make it a lance depending on how the models look. Some of the gaurd can be modled with a type of axe which counts as a master crafted power axe at this stage, untill it has been FAQed, and i think we will start seing the sanguinor being remodeld to be holding a axe over the sword. But to answer your question, as long as the model holds the weopon then yes he will, i might get my hands on some spears for remodeling myself. Fair day brothers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I'm in the camp for lance/sword/axe guard. Until GW FAQs them I don't consider master-crafted or two handed "unique" as stated in the Unusual Power Weapon rules. Plenty of other models get those specific rules for power weapons so I hardly consider Glaives unique special rules-wise. Also, both Sanguinary Guard and the Sanguinor have Glaives so it's not like the specific weapon is unique or unusual when it applies to two different units. Edited: Grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hadron Ka'sel Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I know this has been discussed time and time again but im afraid they simply count as AP3 mastercrafted power weapons. The rules clearly state that if the weapon has any kind of additional special rules then it is an ap3 power weapon. Master crafted is clearly a special rule, and so is two handed as it denys the additional attack for a second cc weapon. I would really love to be able to put lances on sang guard and pop dante with them with his hit and run but i'm afraid to say every time i reread the rules on this i find my self more and more certain that this doesn't need to be F.A.Q'd. Just to point out before anyone else mentions this the whole lemartes and his crozius arguement is pretty invalid because that was not an f.a.q it was an amendment made on all chaplains with crozius. Like i said, i really wish we could do this, but it is covered by the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 SG aren't just equipped with "master crafted power weapons," they're equipped with "Glaive Encarmines." Being a unique Blood Angel weapon, I think they're the very definition of an Unusual Power Weapon, just like Nemesis weapons are Unusual Force Weapons. So I'm playing with them as AP3 until I hear otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 SG aren't just equipped with "master crafted power weapons," they're equipped with "Glaive Encarmines." Being a unique Blood Angel weapon, I think they're the very definition of an Unusual Power Weapon, just like Nemesis weapons are Unusual Force Weapons. So I'm playing with them as AP3 until I hear otherwise. If you're not grey knights you're not keeping any of your toys. Just ask Khârne... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargent josh Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I know this has been discussed time and time again but im afraid they simply count as AP3 mastercrafted power weapons. The rules clearly state that if the weapon has any kind of additional special rules then it is an ap3 power weapon. Master crafted is clearly a special rule, and so is two handed as it denys the additional attack for a second cc weapon. I would really love to be able to put lances on sang guard and pop dante with them with his hit and run but i'm afraid to say every time i reread the rules on this i find my self more and more certain that this doesn't need to be F.A.Q'd. Just to point out before anyone else mentions this the whole lemartes and his crozius arguement is pretty invalid because that was not an f.a.q it was an amendment made on all chaplains with crozius. Like i said, i really wish we could do this, but it is covered by the rules. I think they ment additional rules such as astroths reroll the ++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hadron Ka'sel Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 SG aren't just equipped with "master crafted power weapons," they're equipped with "Glaive Encarmines." Being a unique Blood Angel weapon, I think they're the very definition of an Unusual Power Weapon, just like Nemesis weapons are Unusual Force Weapons. So I'm playing with them as AP3 until I hear otherwise. I whole heartedly agree. If anything the Glaive actually needs its own profile, just as power sswords/ axes/ mauls/ spears all have their own. After all they are two handed. So surely they would be more powerful than a normal power sword other being able to reroll? But thats just my opinion and if they do get f.a.q'd i wouldn't be surprised if thats the route that gw took with them. But alas, i shall also be running them as AP3 pw's, just as i will do with the Sanguinor when i next field him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Khârn explicitly had an axe of some sort. Glaives aren't really specified. Also, if Sword Encarmines and Axe Encarmines and Maul Encarmines and Lance Encarmines become a thing, I wouldn't consider it "losing a toy." Especially because swords wouldn't be affected at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hadron Ka'sel Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 sadly not Sargent Josh, if you reread the rules it says any special rule or rules, mastercrafted and two handed both clearly fall under this blanket im afraid as they aford additional rules to the weapon. and i also agree with you there as well Plague Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Khârn explicitly had an axe of some sort. Glaives aren't really specified. Also, if Sword Encarmines and Axe Encarmines and Maul Encarmines and Lance Encarmines become a thing, I wouldn't consider it "losing a toy." Especially because swords wouldn't be affected at all. Look at the models as the rulebook tells you too. It's either an axe or a sword, not maul or lance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Unless I built one. The actual codex doesn't specify, does it? Quick Edit: That's not sarcasm I actually don't remember and I'm not at my house right now where my codex is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hadron Ka'sel Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Khârn explicitly had an axe of some sort. Glaives aren't really specified. Also, if Sword Encarmines and Axe Encarmines and Maul Encarmines and Lance Encarmines become a thing, I wouldn't consider it "losing a toy." Especially because swords wouldn't be affected at all. Look at the models as the rulebook tells you too. It's either an axe or a sword, not maul or lance. There is that too, but it also says to do that if the weapon is listed as a power weapon and has "no" special rules, to determine what weapon it is. So we dont even need to go that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 sadly not Sargent Josh, if you reread the rules it says any special rule or rules, mastercrafted and two handed both clearly fall under this blanket im afraid as they aford additional rules to the weapon. And yet the GW FAQ writers doesn't share your point of view. Why not wait for a while, or better yet email GW, and see what the official word is before we go crazy with (possibly illegal) conversions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Illegal conversions how? If you model SanGuard with spears and Glaives are ruled not to be unique, they'll just be master-crafted power lances. If Glaives are ruled to be unique, they'll just always follow the rules of being master-crafted power swords and their shape won't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hadron Ka'sel Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 sadly not Sargent Josh, if you reread the rules it says any special rule or rules, mastercrafted and two handed both clearly fall under this blanket im afraid as they aford additional rules to the weapon. And yet the GW FAQ writers doesn't share your point of view. Why not wait for a while, or better yet email GW, and see what the official word is before we go crazy with (possibly illegal) conversions? Can you be a little bit more specific? I'm not sure what part of which F.A.Q you're talking about? *Edit: My spelling, grammar and punctuation sucks so much some times ¬_¬ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 sadly not Sargent Josh, if you reread the rules it says any special rule or rules, mastercrafted and two handed both clearly fall under this blanket im afraid as they aford additional rules to the weapon. And yet the GW FAQ writers doesn't share your point of view. Why not wait for a while, or better yet email GW, and see what the official word is before we go crazy with (possibly illegal) conversions? Can you be a little bit more specific? I'm not sure what part of which F.A.Q you're talking about? *Edit: My spelling, grammar and punctuation sucks so much some times ¬_¬ Many "unique" weapons, like Khârn's axe and Lemartes's crozius, are ruled to have the same profies as axes and crozi... what's the plural of that?... maces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Plex Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 sadly not Sargent Josh, if you reread the rules it says any special rule or rules, mastercrafted and two handed both clearly fall under this blanket im afraid as they aford additional rules to the weapon. And yet the GW FAQ writers doesn't share your point of view. Why not wait for a while, or better yet email GW, and see what the official word is before we go crazy with (possibly illegal) conversions? How I see it only the weapons that falls outside the rules in the BRB has been faq'ed. They wanted Lemartes Blood Crozius to be a power maul and the only way to make it a power maul and not a AP3 power weapon was to faq it. The same with Khârn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hadron Ka'sel Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I think it's Crozius' Plague, but maces is definetly correct XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 sadly not Sargent Josh, if you reread the rules it says any special rule or rules, mastercrafted and two handed both clearly fall under this blanket im afraid as they aford additional rules to the weapon. And yet the GW FAQ writers doesn't share your point of view. Why not wait for a while, or better yet email GW, and see what the official word is before we go crazy with (possibly illegal) conversions? How I see it only the weapons that falls outside the rules in the BRB has been faq'ed. They wanted Lemartes Blood Crozius to be a power maul and the only way to make it a power maul and not a AP3 power weapon was to faq it. The same with Khârn. And the way I see it, those few examples could be used to establish precedent when arguing interpretations with your buds. As my friend said to me, "If Lemartes's maul had literally the same words as Dante's axe, then it seems like Dante would use the axe profile whether the FAQ forgot to mention that or not." And I don't mean to stir that pot! I'm just pointing out that even the information we do have is pretty open to interpretation, so trying to extrapolate RAI right now will only lead to head-aches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Sorry lads, and sorry to the OP. I'm shutting this one down, because its the same as the Dante Debate. Take a look at the soon to be stickied ruling on Dante, Sanguinor and Sang Guard which all share the same ruling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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