Dante, The Sanguinor and Sanguinary Guard

[Morticon]

This is going to come up a lot so it will be stickied.

 

 

No more debate will be entered into on this matter in this particular forum as it will sadly just serve to derail good threads.

 

 

I ask a favour of all BA frater that they understand that different groups are going to play this differently and take that as it comes.

 

 

 

Here is the 9 page thread on the matter: BA Discussion

 

And here is the OR forum discussion on the matter: OR Discussion

 

 

 

 

Additionally here are the quotes and argument summary both for and against:

 

 

 

 

 

This has gone on for 9 pages with the following two main arguments continually circling.

Here is the review:

 

Preamble

 

Dantes Rule:

The Axe of Mortalis: The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon.

 

Rule Book 61:

"If a models wargear says it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model..to see what it has"

 

 

Rule Book 61:

"Unique Power Weapons:

If a weapon has it's own unique close combat rules treat it as an AP3 weapon with the additional rules.."

 

1. DANTES AXE COUNTS AS A POWER AXE

 

* It is modeled with an Axe. Therefore looking at it, you see he has an axe.

* The special rule: "Master Crafted" does not count as a "unique rule" as mentioned on page 61. As a result, you cannot claim it's AP3.

* Kharne's axe was specified to be a Power Axe and it has more unique rules than Dante's .

 

2. DANTES AXES COUNTS AS A POWER WEAPON

 

* "Master Crafted" does count as unique and therefore is AP3.

* In order to look at the model's weapon to determine what it is that weapon must first fit the condition of having: "no special rules". Since it does have a special rule, you cannot fulfill this condition.

* Lemartes' Crozius was explicitly stated to be a Power Maul (master crafted) in the FAQ- it was done so with the weapon having the exact same conditions as Dante's Axe and also being able to follow the guidelines as listed in the above argument.

 

 

 

As you can all see the argument rests sorely on the shoulders of a somewhat poor (lacking) definition of "unique" and a contradiction in the interaction of the "Look and see" rule with the "unique power weapons" rule. This is because Master Crafted is not a "unique" rule by itself, but we cannot follow the "look and see" rule since the Axe has additional rules.

 

This may have to be resolved by a D6 roll or by agreement in your local clubs.

[Morticon]

DAboarder has brought to our attention the following:

 

 

From the Blood Angels Codex, page 23, last sentence of the first paragraph under the "Equipment" heading:

 

"When an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner, and where an item is not unique it is detailed in the wargear section.

 

A good example is the Axe Mortalis, a potent weapon wielded by Commander Dante. As such, its rules are detailed in Dante's entry."

 

 

Cut, clean and dusted I say?

[SevenExxes]

It's a master crafted weapon and they are in the wargear section. Honestly, if you like the strike at Initiative with Ap3 and base strength then you could use this line in the codex to argue the point.

Personally, after testing Dante a couple of times, and with the way assaults are resolved at Initiative, Dante is a beast with AP2, +1S and, striking last, if he is placed in the centre he won't get assaulted.

 

I'm thinking of giving a Glaive Encarmine axe to The Sanguinor. 2+/3+ saves, WS8 7A on the charge with 6S (7 on the charge) with an AP2 weapon striking at I1.

 

The Sanguinor! Crazier than a junkyard dog!

[JamesI]

I understand you can think Dante is better with an axe.

 

But by rules, Dante's axe has a special rule therefore can't look at the chart. We have a quote from the codex that names Dante's axe as a unique weapon.

 

By every rules quote we have, Dante's axe is a unique power weapon. I can see no argument against that now that we have this quote.

[SevenExxes]

I understand you can think Dante is better with an axe.

 

But by rules, Dante's axe has a special rule therefore can't look at the chart. We have a quote from the codex that names Dante's axe as a unique weapon.

 

By every rules quote we have, Dante's axe is a unique power weapon. I can see no argument against that now that we have this quote.

 

Fair enough. I'm remodelling The Sanguinor though.

[JamesI]

I understand you can think Dante is better with an axe.

 

But by rules, Dante's axe has a special rule therefore can't look at the chart. We have a quote from the codex that names Dante's axe as a unique weapon.

 

By every rules quote we have, Dante's axe is a unique power weapon. I can see no argument against that now that we have this quote.

 

Fair enough. I'm remodelling The Sanguinor though.

no good. Glaives are also unique by this definition.

[SevenExxes]

Oh well, I was right all along then. ;)

[Deschenus Maximus]

That entry is irrelevant. The unusual power weapon entry in the BRB is as follows:

 

"Many models have unusual power weapons that have one

or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique

close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the

additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

 

The fact that the Axe Mortalis is a weapon unique within our codex doesn't overrule the wording of this. Master-crafted: is it a unique close combat rule? No, it's in the BRB. So Dante's Axe is a Master-crafter power axe. Two-handed, is it it a unique close combat rule? No, it's in the BRB too. Ergo, sword-shaped Glaives are two-handed master-crafted power swords, and axe-like Glaives are two-handed master-crafted Power Axes. The Sanguinor's sword is a master-crafted two-handed power sword. It doesn't matter if you modeled it yourself to look like an power axe, a power maul, a spear, a wombat or Bill Cosby - the original model had a sword, so rules-wise its still a sword.

[JamesI]

That entry is irrelevant. The unusual power weapon entry in the BRB is as follows:

 

"Many models have unusual power weapons that have one

or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique

close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the

additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

 

The fact that the Axe Mortalis is a weapon unique within our codex doesn't overrule the wording of this. Master-crafted: is it a unique close combat rule? No, it's in the BRB. So Dante's Axe is a Master-crafter power axe. Two-handed, is it it a unique close combat rule? No, it's in the BRB too. Ergo, sword-shaped Glaives are two-handed master-crafted power swords, and axe-like Glaives are two-handed master-crafted Power Axes. The Sanguinor's sword is a master-crafted two-handed power sword. It doesn't matter if you modeled it yourself to look like an power axe, a power maul, a spear, a wombat or Bill Cosby - the original model had a sword, so rules-wise its still a sword.

But you stil don't look at the weapon to see the type if you have a special rule. Which the glaive/axe mortalis does.

 

So, now we have a rule taht says don't look at the weapon to see the type and a rule that declares it unique.

 

And I can't see any rules justification for saying a power weapon goes by what the model came with not what the model is armed with anyway.

[SevenExxes]

The Sanguinor, as written in the Codex, is equppied with a Glaive Encarmine. If Glaive Encarmine type axe counts as a power axe then I see no problem in modelling The Sanguinor with a Glaive Encarmine type axe.

That's all I'm saying on this. I'm now going to start an argument on Challenges and units consisting of one model, if I can find that thread ;)

[JamesI]

The Sanguinor, as written in the Codex, is equppied with a Glaive Encarmine. If Glaive Encarmine type axe counts as a power axe then I see no problem in modelling The Sanguinor with a Glaive Encarmine type axe.

That's all I'm saying on this. I'm now going to start an argument on Challenges and units consisting of one model, if I can find that thread ;)

Glaive encarmine is an unusual power weapon, not an axe/sword.

[Drunken Angel]

Did GW ever get back to you on this because I am more than happy to run Dante and the Sanguinor I1 with axe rules or normal I with sword rules. I just want to get the dynamic sorted one way or another because it makes a big difference and I will have to ask for a ruling on this before submitting for tournaments and pickup games. Either way where does it leave the Sanguinary guard I guess they get power fists for the nasty stuff a LOS save. I know there will be more discussion on this so saying there will be no discussion is not doing the rest of us BA players any favours. I would love an Axe rules Sanguinor.

[JamesI]

Did GW ever get back to you on this because I am more than happy to run Dante and the Sanguinor I1 with axe rules or normal I with sword rules. I just want to get the dynamic sorted one way or another because it makes a big difference and I will have to ask for a ruling on this before submitting for tournaments and pickup games. Either way where does it leave the Sanguinary guard I guess they get power fists for the nasty stuff a LOS save. I know there will be more discussion on this so saying there will be no discussion is not doing the rest of us BA players any favours. I would love an Axe rules Sanguinor.

 

GW US never responded (despite a promise to respond on the website within 3 days). GW UK responded with a different email address so I could send my questions directly to the design team. But no response. When (if) it comes I will post it.

 

I would prefer an update to the FAQ to an email response. There can be no argument with a FAQ update while an email will not necessarily be accepted as definitive.

[Deschenus Maximus]

But you stil don't look at the weapon to see the type if you have a special rule. Which the glaive/axe mortalis does.

 

So, now we have a rule taht says don't look at the weapon to see the type and a rule that declares it unique.

 

I see what you are saying. The problem is that both fall in a grey zone: the are both unique power weapons, but neither have unique close combat rules. Ergo, they fit neither description.

 

And I can't see any rules justification for saying a power weapon goes by what the model came with not what the model is armed with anyway.

 

Seriously? Did they get rid of the modeling for advantage rule?

[JamesI]

And I can't see any rules justification for saying a power weapon goes by what the model came with not what the model is armed with anyway.

 

Seriously? Did they get rid of the modeling for advantage rule?

I modeled my Dante with a sword 2 years ago. Did I model for advantage? Same with my Astorath.

 

Had I modeled my Mephiston with an axe, did I cheat?

 

If there is no rules quote that says Mephiston (as example) has a force sword, he has a force weapon and I should legally be allowed to model it however I want. This is part of the reason I dislike these rules. I like to be able to model guys how I want. I like to make my own figures for the named guys, modeled however I feel looks good.

 

As to the issue of whether Dante is better with an axe or with an unusual power weapon, I don't know which is better. From the number of posts I see praising Dante with an axe I think overall that might be better on the tabletop. But, I don't see how in the rules it works out to make Dante's Axe a power axe.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I modeled my Dante with a sword 2 years ago. Did I model for advantage? Same with my Astorath.

 

Had I modeled my Mephiston with an axe, did I cheat?

 

Just because you didn't model them that way for advantage doesn't preclude everyone from doing so, and just because your models have swords doesn't preclude them from using the axe rules in-game. The term "count as" comes to mind.

 

If there is no rules quote that says Mephiston (as example) has a force sword, he has a force weapon and I should legally be allowed to model it however I want.

 

You can model it however you want - just make it clear to your opponent that in spite of having modeled an axe on him, he still uses the rules for a sword because quite clearly the GW official model has a sword on him.

 

This is part of the reason I dislike these rules. I like to be able to model guys how I want. I like to make my own figures for the named guys, modeled however I feel looks good.

 

Agreed.

 

As to the issue of whether Dante is better with an axe or with an unusual power weapon, I don't know which is better. From the number of posts I see praising Dante with an axe I think overall that might be better on the tabletop. But, I don't see how in the rules it works out to make Dante's Axe a power axe.

 

I don't care which is better, honestly. I just don't want rules amibiguities. I'm guessing the next series of FAQs will clear that out.

[JamesI]

As to the issue of whether Dante is better with an axe or with an unusual power weapon, I don't know which is better. From the number of posts I see praising Dante with an axe I think overall that might be better on the tabletop. But, I don't see how in the rules it works out to make Dante's Axe a power axe.

 

I don't care which is better, honestly. I just don't want rules amibiguities. I'm guessing the next series of FAQs will clear that out.

This is all I ask for really. I don't really care which way they rule, and I believe its bascially 50/50 which way a FAQ does rule. But I want a ruling.

[Drunken Angel]

The Sanguinor, as written in the Codex, is equppied with a Glaive Encarmine. If Glaive Encarmine type axe counts as a power axe then I see no problem in modelling The Sanguinor with a Glaive Encarmine type axe.

That's all I'm saying on this. I'm now going to start an argument on Challenges and units consisting of one model, if I can find that thread :)

Glaive encarmine is an unusual power weapon, not an axe/sword.

 

From the Blood Angels Codex, page 23, last sentence of the first paragraph under the "Equipment" heading:

"When an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner, and where an item is not unique it is detailed in the wargear section.

 

The Glaive Encarmine is named in the Wargear section page 58 bottom right corner "Index of further weapons" it is listed alongside 4 other non-unique weapons, if we use the above section of our codex then the Glaive encarmine is a non unique weapon. The Glaive encarmine does not have an owner it is a piece of wargear for both the Sanguinor and the Sanguinary Guard. Therefore SevenExxes can have his axe weilding maniac I am going to make one as well and go out and slaughter the enemies of Sangiunius.

 

Stuff messing around untill GW clear this up I am fielding an AP2 HQ TEQ and MEQ killer

[JamesI]

The Sanguinor, as written in the Codex, is equppied with a Glaive Encarmine. If Glaive Encarmine type axe counts as a power axe then I see no problem in modelling The Sanguinor with a Glaive Encarmine type axe.

That's all I'm saying on this. I'm now going to start an argument on Challenges and units consisting of one model, if I can find that thread :)

Glaive encarmine is an unusual power weapon, not an axe/sword.

 

From the Blood Angels Codex, page 23, last sentence of the first paragraph under the "Equipment" heading:

"When an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner, and where an item is not unique it is detailed in the wargear section.

 

The Glaive Encarmine is named in the Wargear section page 58 bottom right corner "Index of further weapons" it is listed alongside 4 other non-unique weapons, if we use the above section of our codex then the Glaive encarmine is a non unique weapon. The Glaive encarmine does not have an owner it is a piece of wargear for both the Sanguinor and the Sanguinary Guard. Therefore SevenExxes can have his axe weilding maniac I am going to make one as well and go out and slaughter the enemies of Sangiunius.

 

Stuff messing around untill GW clear this up I am fielding an AP2 HQ TEQ and MEQ killer

 

All it says on page 58, is Glaive Encarmine page 50. On page 50 (the Sanguinary Guard page) are the rules for Glaives. Its a unique weapon by the description on page 23.

[Drunken Angel]

It is non unique, the Glaive is mentioned in a wargear entry none of the other weapons listed with it and described elsewhere are unique either. Are thunder hammers and power swords unique too then ? Does any other unit get Dantes Axe Mortalis no?

The Glaive Encarmine is available for use to Sanguinary Guard, The Sanguinor and to Vanguard Veterans that alone and the entry under wargear is enough to class it as wargear and non unique.

[JamesI]

"When an item is unique, it is detailed in the relevant entry for its owner, and where an item is not unique it is detailed in the wargear section.

 

Where is the Glaive Encarmine detailed? On the Sanguinary Guard page. If I go to page 58, can I find the rules to play a Glaive? No.

 

The codex defines unique as detailed in the unit's page. Detailed. There is a huge difference between being mentioned and being detailed in the wargear section.

 

Why are Relic blades accepted as unusual power weapons and Glaives are not?

 

Thunder Hammers say to see the rulebook for rules. So, if the rulebook calls them unique, yes (which of course it doesn't).

 

Our codex calls Glaives unique.

 

Honestly, this debate has become the one thing in 6th I dread. As I read the rules, anyone using a Glaive (or the axe mortalis) as a power axe is breaking 2 rules.

 

1) The codex calling them unique.

 

2) The rulebook saying you only use the chart for axe/sword if you have no special rules. Special, not unique.

[Drunken Angel]

What a relic blade is, is irrelevant ... its an item from another codex. Glaives are listed on the wargear page alongside other wargear, just because you have to go to another page or book to understand a thunder hammer or any other weapon alongside the Glaive wont help you describe that as unique either. Glaives are mentioned in wargear and are available to 3 different units, they are not unique.

[JamesI]

What a relic blade is, is irrelevant ... its an item from another codex. Glaives are listed on the wargear page alongside other wargear, just because you have to go to another page or book to understand a thunder hammer or any other weapon alongside the Glaive wont help you describe that as unique either. Glaives are mentioned in wargear and are available to 3 different units, they are not unique.

 

 

The codex says where it is DESCRIBED to determine uniqueness. You are using a different definition of unique from the codex.

 

 

Also, you have not answered my other point. How can a glaive be an axe if according to the rulebook we only go to the chart if it has no special rules?

 

Honestly, this thread is circular. No one is willing to budge until there is a FAQ. I doubt anything I say will convince Deschenus or Drunken Angel and nothing they say will convince me. Probably time to consider canning this debate again and pray for a FAQ update.

[Drunken Angel]

What a relic blade is, is irrelevant ... its an item from another codex. Glaives are listed on the wargear page alongside other wargear, just because you have to go to another page or book to understand a thunder hammer or any other weapon alongside the Glaive wont help you describe that as unique either. Glaives are mentioned in wargear and are available to 3 different units, they are not unique.

 

 

The codex says where it is DESCRIBED to determine uniqueness. You are using a different definition of unique from the codex.

 

 

Also, you have not answered my other point. How can a glaive be an axe if according to the rulebook we only go to the chart if it has no special rules?

 

Respectfully and very politely James I would point out in response

 

The glaives master crafted rule is on the wargear page, thats not special thats a wargear entry. The top of the page details that this part of the codex lists the weapons and equipment used by more than one model or unit of the Blood Angels.

 

The Glaive Encarmine is used by 3 seperate Blood Angels units, the Glaive is listed on the wargear page, the wargear page entry itself says this is the page Blood Angels wargear is listed, the master crafted rule for its use is on the wargear page.

What more is needed here?

[JamesI]

What a relic blade is, is irrelevant ... its an item from another codex. Glaives are listed on the wargear page alongside other wargear, just because you have to go to another page or book to understand a thunder hammer or any other weapon alongside the Glaive wont help you describe that as unique either. Glaives are mentioned in wargear and are available to 3 different units, they are not unique.

 

 

The codex says where it is DESCRIBED to determine uniqueness. You are using a different definition of unique from the codex.

 

 

Also, you have not answered my other point. How can a glaive be an axe if according to the rulebook we only go to the chart if it has no special rules?

 

Respectfully and very politely James I would point out in response

 

The glaives master crafted rule is on the wargear page, thats not special thats a wargear entry. The top of the page details that this part of the codex lists the weapons and equipment used by the Blood Angels

 

The non unique Glaive Encarmine and the master crafted rule for its use is on the wargear page.

 

 

Actually master crafted is now defined by Page 39 of the rulebook, the section called Special Rules. So Master crafted (and Two handed in the case of glaives) are Special rules.

 

So, again, no axe/sword/mace/spear due to special rules.

 

So, willing to call this one a draw? Both of us walk away as neither are going to change our minds until a FAQ?