Dante, The Sanguinor and Sanguinary Guard

[SevenExxes]

Page 61 of the rule book states, under the Unusual Power Weapons entry: "If a power weapon has it's own unique combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

 

Unique COMBAT rules. So, a master crafted weapon doesn't have a "unique combat rule" but the Executioner's Axe (page 45 BA codex) does as it has UNIQUE COMBAT rule of "Successful invulnerable saves taken against wounds caused by the Executioner's Axe must be re-rolled." No other weapon has that rule and so there makes it a Unique Special Weapon

[Drunken Angel]

Thing is AP2-AP3 on HQ's it is a game breaker very few IC HQ's have AP2 CC weapons, a lot of the HQ's got pulled back to AP3 unless they take a hammer or a fist.

 

I accept Astorath and Dantes axe's as unique AP3 and if a FAQ came out and said The Sanguinors personal Glaive Encarmine was AP3 unique I would say okay too but if you went on and said the other 2 units that use Glaives are also unique I would say hold on .... how is a HQ characters CC personal close combat weapon in use with 2 other units? by definition that is not unique is it ? I just can't see The Sanguinor taking the head off a chaos lord then passing his glaive over to the Sanguinary Guard ? This is not a discussion no argument will sway me on the Glaive. A FAQ would be nice but untill then I have a FAQ and Glaives are not in it. Just clearing up I have no issue with Dante or Astoraths weapons as AP3. The glaive encarmine is a different matter entirely. My local gaming group have discussed and accepted the Glaive for VV SG and TS as non unique so away I go I will deal with tournaments as I have to.

[JamesI]

Drunken, I can't see any logic in the glaive being unique for SAnguinor and not everyone else. Either the Glaive is a unique weapon or not. Now it probably doesn't matter in the case of the Sanguinor since he's modeled with a sword so AP3 anyway.

 

And no matter what, no one has given a single rule that gets around the fact that you can't look at the chart if you have a special rule.

[Pascalnz]

one last bit of fun to add this debate.

 

the whole special rules meaning you can no longer wysiwyg is fine and I hope concrete.["if a weapon has"no further special rules" It can't look on the table. there's a section on special rules which include master crafted two handed etc]

 

the unique part is what people are having trouble with. however that part is not defined particulary well anywhere.

 

So I'm going to try and show what GW thinks on the matter.

 

FAQ.

 

Kharns Axe has a ton of special/unique rules, I think we can all agree that it is a unique weapon.

 

the blood crozius is a master crafted power weapon.

 

the axe mortalis is a master crafted power weapon.

 

 

Kharns axe, under the unique special rules, should be ap3. however It needed a FAQ to state it was Actually an axe ap2 i1.

 

the blood crozius would not need a faq IF master crafted didn't put it into the unique rules. however it was Faq'd to say it is actually a maul, just like the way it looks.

 

both weapons were FAQ'd to be Wysiwyg.

 

ergo, having a special rule must negate the wysiwyg rule and put it in the only other place it can go, unique weaponry.

 

 

Also if one of the crozius and axe was faq'd why wasn't the other? the only change in the faq was towards wysiwyg and the only place you could be in allready to change it is if the weapon was being counted as unique.

 

 

Maybe FAQ's arn't always the best places to look for this stuff, but it's got to be the tie breaker here.

 

Anyone disprove my statements on it here?

[daboarder]

one last bit of fun to add this debate.

 

the whole special rules meaning you can no longer wysiwyg is fine and I hope concrete.["if a weapon has"no further special rules" It can't look on the table. there's a section on special rules which include master crafted two handed etc]

 

the unique part is what people are having trouble with. however that part is not defined particulary well anywhere.

 

So I'm going to try and show what GW thinks on the matter.

 

FAQ.

 

Kharns Axe has a ton of special/unique rules, I think we can all agree that it is a unique weapon.

 

the blood crozius is a master crafted power weapon.

 

the axe mortalis is a master crafted power weapon.

 

 

Kharns axe, under the unique special rules, should be ap3. however It needed a FAQ to state it was Actually an axe ap2 i1.

 

the blood crozius would not need a faq IF master crafted didn't put it into the unique rules. however it was Faq'd to say it is actually a maul, just like the way it looks.

 

both weapons were FAQ'd to be Wysiwyg.

 

ergo, having a special rule must negate the wysiwyg rule and put it in the only other place it can go, unique weaponry.

 

 

Also if one of the crozius and axe was faq'd why wasn't the other? the only change in the faq was towards wysiwyg and the only place you could be in allready to change it is if the weapon was being counted as unique.

 

 

Maybe FAQ's arn't always the best places to look for this stuff, but it's got to be the tie breaker here.

 

Anyone disprove my statements on it here?

 

 

Therre have been plenty of arguements for AP3 and little to nothing for "axe" other than the poorly defined use of the word unique, people will argue jsut about anything and won't admit they could be wrong once they have come to a conclusion.

 

If GW turned around and said the axe was an axe then fine but until that point all evidence weighs strongly, if not conclusively, in favour of AP3.

[Pascalnz]

My argument was for ap3. :)

 

really simply, the blood crozious wouldn't need a faq if it was wysiwyg. i.e. master crafted doesn't count towards uniqueness.

But it got faq'd so... it has to have started at ap3, or there would be nothing to faq.

 

I just added some relevant extra info on other weapons in the same boat, i.e. kharns axe etc

[Drunken Angel]

And no matter what, no one has given a single rule that gets around the fact that you can't look at the chart if you have a special rule.

 

 

"You cant look at the chart if you have a special rule" special or unique? thats my question please

 

Page 61 of the rule book states, under the Unusual Power Weapons entry: "If a power weapon has it's own unique combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

 

Unique COMBAT rules. So, a master crafted weapon doesn't have a "unique combat rule" but the Executioner's Axe (page 45 BA codex) does as it has UNIQUE COMBAT rule of "Successful invulnerable saves taken against wounds caused by the Executioner's Axe must be re-rolled." No other weapon has that rule and so there makes it a Unique Special Weapon

 

 

Are we talking about the same defining rule on the same page here James 1? .... SevenExxes? .... who has quoted the page exactly?

 

If SevenExxes has this quote correct then Glaives are absolutely in the category of power weapon and can be used as an axe or a halberd or a sword profile.

 

What is the special rule ? or is it a "unique" rule is it any entry other than "wargear = glaive encarmine" as for the Sanguinor or is it unique rules.

The Glaives rules for use are common to many other weapons. Power weapon = common (the glaive is even listed the same as either an axe, halberd or mace page 58 power weapons). Master crafted = common. Two handed = plenty of those around. Those rules arent special or unique. If you call those special then you can make a case for thunderhammers and chainfists to be unique.

 

I see James 1's point but it all hinges on my questions above thanks in advance.

[SevenExxes]

Page 31 of the rule book "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules ...."

 

Page 39 under master-crafted "Weapons with the Master-crafted special rule ..."

 

Under the entry for Unusual Power Weapons there is an example of a Thunderhammer with it's weapon type listing as: Melee, Concussive, Specialist weapon, unwieldly. So Unusual Power Weapons are power fists, thunderhammers etc.

 

So I'm going back to what I originally said and that is; Dante's Axe Mortalis and the Glaive Encarmines are AP3 power weapons that strike at I.

[vahouth]

Honestly, I would take the Axe Mortalis as an AP2 I1 weapon instead of AP3 at I6 anytime, but I feel that would be cheating so I won't.

I know it's an axe, it's bloody obvious, so please stop that "model it as a sword thingy" but that's not the point IMHO.

The BRB says :"If a models wargear says it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model..to see what it has"

Also

"Unique Power Weapons:

If a weapon has it's own unique close combat rules treat it as an AP3 weapon with the additional rules.."

 

Now, the Axe Mortalis has a special rule as the first quote says so 1 point for treated as Unusual. So far so good.

The second paragraph gives a definition of what is an Unique Power Weapon, but so does our own Codex.

The one however does not contradict the other, it rather supplements it.

But even if they did... as always Codex > BRB so Dante's axe is Unusual unless a future FAQ says otherwise.

 

I would also want to bring to your attention that the Glaives Encarmine have a combo of special rules pretty much unique and most importantly their own entry in the wargear section of Codex BA as do Power Fists Lightning Claws etc, so the further seperation of Power Weapons entry in the BRB CAN'T apply to them!

Under the "Power Weapons" entry the Codex BA says "see the Warhammer 40000 rulebook for details of using power weapons"

and at the same time under "Index of further weapons" it says : Glaive Encarmine page 50"

Case Closed. ;)

[JamesI]

And no matter what, no one has given a single rule that gets around the fact that you can't look at the chart if you have a special rule.

 

 

"You cant look at the chart if you have a special rule" special or unique? thats my question please

 

Page 61 of the rule book states, under the Unusual Power Weapons entry: "If a power weapon has it's own unique combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

 

Unique COMBAT rules. So, a master crafted weapon doesn't have a "unique combat rule" but the Executioner's Axe (page 45 BA codex) does as it has UNIQUE COMBAT rule of "Successful invulnerable saves taken against wounds caused by the Executioner's Axe must be re-rolled." No other weapon has that rule and so there makes it a Unique Special Weapon

 

 

Are we talking about the same defining rule on the same page here James 1? .... SevenExxes? .... who has quoted the page exactly?

 

If SevenExxes has this quote correct then Glaives are absolutely in the category of power weapon and can be used as an axe or a halberd or a sword profile.

 

What is the special rule ? or is it a "unique" rule is it any entry other than "wargear = glaive encarmine" as for the Sanguinor or is it unique rules.

The Glaives rules for use are common to many other weapons. Power weapon = common (the glaive is even listed the same as either an axe, halberd or mace page 58 power weapons). Master crafted = common. Two handed = plenty of those around. Those rules arent special or unique. If you call those special then you can make a case for thunderhammers and chainfists to be unique.

 

I see James 1's point but it all hinges on my questions above thanks in advance.

 

 

You can't look aat the chart if you have a special rule, and both Master Crafted and Two Handed are Special rules accoridng to the rulebook.

 

A later rule says if you have a unique rule you are AP3.

 

So, technically someone can argue that Glaives/Axe Mortalis do not look at the chart and are not Ap3 making them meaningless. I believe, as thankfully does everyone I play, the section titled Unusual Power WEapons (which is where the unique rule rule comes from) applies to any weapon that does not look at the chart).

[vahouth]

And no matter what, no one has given a single rule that gets around the fact that you can't look at the chart if you have a special rule.

 

 

"You cant look at the chart if you have a special rule" special or unique? thats my question please

 

Page 61 of the rule book states, under the Unusual Power Weapons entry: "If a power weapon has it's own unique combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

 

Unique COMBAT rules. So, a master crafted weapon doesn't have a "unique combat rule" but the Executioner's Axe (page 45 BA codex) does as it has UNIQUE COMBAT rule of "Successful invulnerable saves taken against wounds caused by the Executioner's Axe must be re-rolled." No other weapon has that rule and so there makes it a Unique Special Weapon

 

 

Are we talking about the same defining rule on the same page here James 1? .... SevenExxes? .... who has quoted the page exactly?

 

If SevenExxes has this quote correct then Glaives are absolutely in the category of power weapon and can be used as an axe or a halberd or a sword profile.

 

What is the special rule ? or is it a "unique" rule is it any entry other than "wargear = glaive encarmine" as for the Sanguinor or is it unique rules.

The Glaives rules for use are common to many other weapons. Power weapon = common (the glaive is even listed the same as either an axe, halberd or mace page 58 power weapons). Master crafted = common. Two handed = plenty of those around. Those rules arent special or unique. If you call those special then you can make a case for thunderhammers and chainfists to be unique.

 

I see James 1's point but it all hinges on my questions above thanks in advance.

 

 

You can't look aat the chart if you have a special rule.

 

A later rule says if you have a unique rule you are AP3.

 

So, techincally someone can argue that Glaives/Axe Mortalis do not look at the chart and are not Ap3 making them meaningless.

 

 

Why would you look at the chart for Glaives at all if they are not under the power weapons entry in the Codex:BA in the first place?

[SevenExxes]

My LGS has ruled Glaive Encarmines as swords/axes but have ruled against me modelling The Sanguinor with an axe to gain the advantage.

Dante's still a beast though.

[JamesI]

My LGS has ruled Glaive Encarmines as swords/axes but have ruled against me modelling The Sanguinor with an axe to gain the advantage.

Dante's still a beast though.

That ruling seems inconsistent to me. Either Glaives go as modeled or are unusual power weapon (my store has ruled Ap3 for glaives regardless of modeling).

 

The Sanguinor should be able to take a Glaive axe if anyone else is allowed to.

[SevenExxes]

My LGS has ruled Glaive Encarmines as swords/axes but have ruled against me modelling The Sanguinor with an axe to gain the advantage.

Dante's still a beast though.

That ruling seems inconsistent to me. Either Glaives go as modeled or are unusual power weapon (my store has ruled Ap3 for glaives regardless of modeling).

 

The Sanguinor should be able to take a Glaive axe if anyone else is allowed to.

 

Yeah, the whole ruling is bogus. They pretty much ban ruling for advantage, saying that The Sanguinor is modelled with an axe. I tried arguing the point of scratch and customised builds but no one would listen.

It just makes me want to gimp the game and create some ridiculous overpowered unit like that Necron chariot ... stupid thing.

[JamesI]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=256181

 

This OR thread discusses the RAW that a character with an unwieldy weapon still piles in at their normal initiative then fights at I1. Not sure if they are right or not, but if they are, that would take away a lot of the interest in power axes (in my opinion).

[SevenExxes]

It doesn't really matter for Sanguinary Guard with 2+ armour saves. They'll wreck Rhinos on the charge. I've had Dante destroy a Ghost Ark and killed 4 'crons with the explosion.

[Drunken Angel]

I have read the issues through again I am converting. I am going with Glaives melee AP3 model initiative. I will keep my axes on my SG and they can just be melee AP3 axes at model initiative. I have ordered and will model a bunch of magnetised axes for my Priests, Death Company and Vanguard. Axes look cool.

I hope I dont get any crap on pickup games because there is still a pretty good case for either argument, and TO's could go either way.

[JamesI]

I hope I dont get any crap on pickup games because there is still a pretty good case for either argument, and TO's could go either way.

I would check with any TO well in advance so you can plan a different list just in case.

[LordCommanderSamirus]

I just got off the phone with a gentleman at GW and he told me that Master Crafted is not a unusual or unique enough special rule to make the Axe Mortalis or Glaive Encarmines unusual so count them as what they are modeled as until they are FAQ'd.

 

I know that the rules lawyers at GW Customer Service are less than consistent from one person to the next but I'll take any "official" ruling I can get for right now.

 

-Samirus

[vahouth]

I just got off the phone with a gentleman at GW and he told me that Master Crafted is not a unusual or unique enough special rule to make the Axe Mortalis or Glaive Encarmines unusual so count them as what they are modeled as until they are FAQ'd.

 

I know that the rules lawyers at GW Customer Service are less than consistent from one person to the next but I'll take any "official" ruling I can get for right now.

 

-Samirus

 

Not unique enough? What is that? He was expresing his personal oppinion if you ask me.

Btw, let me say that again, Glaives Encarmine are NOT under Power Weapons in the Wargear section of Codex BA.

So further distinction of the Power Weapons category (swords, axes etc) don't apply to them.

[JamesI]

I just got off the phone with a gentleman at GW and he told me that Master Crafted is not a unusual or unique enough special rule to make the Axe Mortalis or Glaive Encarmines unusual so count them as what they are modeled as until they are FAQ'd.

 

I know that the rules lawyers at GW Customer Service are less than consistent from one person to the next but I'll take any "official" ruling I can get for right now.

 

-Samirus

A special rule is nto special enough? Hah.

 

But honestly, even if he is right when the FAQ comes out, its cool. Use as what they are modeled as? Perfect (and personally what I think is the best anyway since it means those that want AP3 can have it and those that want axe rules can have it).

 

I will point out an earlier post (not sure if it was this thread or another one) where someone called GW and got the opposite answer (Axe/Glaive are always AP3)

[Blindhamster]

And JamesI and I continue to wait for an email response (they did the same thing to me James - forwarded me a different email to send the query to, which never got back to me)

[JamesI]

And JamesI and I continue to wait for an email response (they did the same thing to me James - forwarded me a different email to send the query to, which never got back to me)

Honestly, I'll accept a lack of an email response if they update the FAQ with an answer.

[LordCommanderSamirus]

When I emailed them they said that any rules questions should be called in to Customer Service. Like I said in the past when I've called or emailed (when you could email rules questions) they haven't been consistent from one CS rep to the next. However, until the official FAQ gets updated to explain in more detail on these issues I guess I'll be fine with the Axe Mortalis being an Axe. The I1 bit isn't fun, especially on a character that has a high I, but I guess S6 with FC will make up for it in most cases. However that just gives me a reason to model 2 of my SG with axes into spears.

 

-Samirus

[JamesI]

When I emailed them they said that any rules questions should be called in to Customer Service. Like I said in the past when I've called or emailed (when you could email rules questions) they haven't been consistent from one CS rep to the next. However, until the official FAQ gets updated to explain in more detail on these issues I guess I'll be fine with the Axe Mortalis being an Axe. The I1 bit isn't fun, especially on a character that has a high I, but I guess S6 with FC will make up for it in most cases. However that just gives me a reason to model 2 of my SG with axes into spears.

 

-Samirus

Based on the way you worded what they told you, its legal to make the Axe Mortalis a sword on the model (like my Dante has)