Dante, The Sanguinor and Sanguinary Guard

[Adorondak]

check the faq, i think its been edited? i dont think i saw this in it before

 

Var – Power Swords

In the bestiary and army list, replace all references to “power

sword” with “power weapon”.

 

means i can give my termy sarge a maul or lance:)

 

 

Uhhh, unless they did change it since I read it last, you got that mixed up a little. It says replace all references to "Power weapon" with "Power sword"

[Blindhamster]

Var – Power Swords

In the bestiary and army list, replace all references to “power

sword” with “power weapon”

 

direct from FAQ (it's ALWAYS been this way)

[JamesI]

Yep, this was in the first 6th FAQ. Its nice for terminator Priests, since their entry specifically says power sword, now you can give them an axe or maul.

[Adorondak]

Var – Power Swords

In the bestiary and army list, replace all references to “power

sword” with “power weapon”

 

direct from FAQ (it's ALWAYS been this way)

 

 

well what do you know, just re-read my day one print out of the faq and you're right. Don't I look stupid now? Damn dyslexia

[Drunken Angel]

I have recieved a decision on the Axes/Glaives issue from the TO for my little tourney

The TO has tried to distinguish between special rules and unique rules. The reason is to maintain consistency with other codex's outside the BA codex.

 

Astorath has an unusual weapon therefore AP3 I=model

 

Dantes Axe is a master crafted power axe and AP2

 

Glaives are master crafted power weapons (so if you model it as an axe its an axe, a sword is a sword), looks like I get my flying AV2 AP2 FNP axe weilding flying terminators

 

 

Nova seem to have gone the same way.

[Israfel]

I have recieved a decision on the Axes/Glaives issue from the TO for my little tourney

The TO has tried to distinguish between special rules and unique rules. The reason is to maintain consistency with other codex's outside the BA codex.

 

Astorath has an unusual weapon therefore AP3 I=model

 

Dantes Axe is a master crafted power axe and AP2

 

Glaives are master crafted power weapons (so if you model it as an axe its an axe, a sword is a sword), looks like I get my flying AV2 AP2 FNP axe weilding flying terminators

 

 

Nova seem to have gone the same way.

 

Despite the GW e-mail, I think this is the way to go as well. Those GW replies are not official, and different inquirers may get different replies depanding on the person answering unfortunately.

[JamesI]

Supposedly a new FAQ is coming, so hopefully this question will be completely solved after that.

 

I would be amazed if they made Astorath's weapon not be unique, everyone else I could see either ruling occurring.

 

Though, since I modeled my Dante with a sword, its going to be a bit awkward if they rule it a power axe (though likely better on the tabletop).

 

Personally, I wish GW would just put in a FAQ every weapon with the slightest bit of controversy and say "this is a power sword, this is a power axe, this is a force staff, this is an unusual wepaon...."

[Adorondak]

Well, Just re-reading the rule book it actually is quite clear how it works. If you take the entry as a whole instead of paragraph by paragraph.

 

"I need to determine what my weapon is, how do I do it?"

 

Step 1. Does my weapon have a special rule ? (Ie. Mastercrafted, Armor Bane, Flesh Bane, anything else from the special rules section)?

If yes, WYSIWYG does not apply, your weapon is ap3 with whatever special rules were listed, and no other bonuses.

If no, move on to step 2.

 

Step 2. Does my weapon have a rule that is unique to it? (Ie. The Executioner's Axe striking at str 6 and forcing rerolls on sucsseful invul save)?

if yes, WYSIWYG does not apply, your weapon is ap3 with whatever unique rules were listed, and no other bonuses.

if no, move on to step 3.

 

Step 3. After passing step 1 and 2, WYSIWYG now applies, and whatever your weapon looks like is what it is. Happy Modeling!

[JamesI]

I have been saying that since the very beginning.

 

I have also said that I would not be surprised if GW rules differently in a FAQ.

[Drunken Angel]

Its all academic now anyway, untill the FAQ we have to deal with whatever any TO land's on our plate and that can vary from all the opinions above. TO's have to develop something that is consistent across a dozen codexs not just the BA one. Which may be why GW could go anywhere with a FAQ.

In the mean time its "fly my AP2 AV2 pretties fly" although TBH it seems Death Company are virtually equal value as SG.

[Adorondak]

Its all academic now anyway, untill the FAQ we have to deal with whatever any TO land's on our plate and that can vary from all the opinions above. TO's have to develop something that is consistent across a dozen codexs not just the BA one. Which may be why GW could go anywhere with a FAQ.

In the mean time its "fly my AP2 AV2 pretties fly" although TBH it seems Death Company are virtually equal value as SG.

 

 

well, luckily I don't play in too many tournys so I don't have to worry about what some pyscho TO has to say on the subject. I agree with you on the DC though, the couple of times I've played them in 6th they've chewed through everything I threw them at with practically no losses at all. Even naked they ae tough, just don't throw them at any 2+ saves (unless of course you need to keep it away from something else)

[Pascalnz]

actually, Do throw naked DC at termies, sheer weight of numbers kills them. I regularly field a unit of ten armed with only bolters. 20 shots + 40 attacks all hitting on 3's 1/3 wounding on 4's two thirds wounding on 3+'s. it's usually enough to down 3 or 4 termies. the fifth one kills a DC and stops the opponent from shooting at them next turn... profit!

[7 Mile]

I am surprised everyone is getting so hung up on special rules, special rules are not unique. In regards to power weapons, as stated directly from the BRB, page 61, the exact entry reads as:

 

Unusual Power weapons

Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules (note: they did not say special rules). If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics in its entry.

 

Unique is not special, special is not unique. Unique means it has a rule that is one of a kind, special rule means you can find its rules listed in the BRB. Master crafted, and two handed can be found in the BRB, therefore it is not unique. An example of unique would be the Executioner's axe.

 

From Codex: Blood Angels, page 45

 

Executioner's Axe: The executioner's axe is a two-handed(special rule) power weapon that strikes at strength six (unique rule). Successful invulnerable saves taken against wounds caused by the executioner's axe must be re-rolled (Unique rule, meaning you cant find either of these rules in the BRB special rules entries).

 

Now note Chaplain Lemartes, Codex Blood Angels, page 43:

 

The Blood Crozius: Said to be the weapon of the very first blood angels high chaplain, the blood crozius was given into Lemartes keeping by Astorath the Grim. The blood crozius is a master crafted power weapon.

 

Here is a weapon that sounds pretty damn unique right? I mean it has its own unique name, and its own unique entry but what it doesn't have is any unique rules, just special rules noted in the BRB. Just like the Axe Mortalis Dante carries. Now, here is GW's FAQ ruling on the Blood Crozius.

 

Page 43 – Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost, the Blood Crozius.

Change last sentence to: “The Blood Crozius is a master-crafted

power maul.”

 

This solidifies the argument that you do not treat master crafted, or any other special rules as in any way unique. Nor do you treat a fancy, one of a kind name as making the weapon unique either, as they clearly separated special rules from something that is unique. This clearly puts to death the reference on page 23 of the blood angels codex, as Lemartes' crozius is unique by that definition, but only unique in name alone, as every other chaplain in the Imperium wields their Crozius as a power maul, even if its has a special rule, like master crafted. To break it down for Dante, you can currently get away with modeling him however you want, with a club, spear, sword, or even the mighty axe, and this will fly for now, but when the entry is FAQ'd I would bet money it specifically states Dante wields a Master Crafted Power Axe.

 

Less emotion, more logic. Its a black and white subject the way the rules are currently written, with FAQ references backing the thesis.

[JamesI]

But the rulebook also states

 

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon that has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has."

 

Master crafted is a special rule.

 

Honestly, no one here is saying anything new. Every point I can make has been made before just as no one has anything new to say on the other side.

 

I'll leave this open for now, but if nothing new comes up, it will be closed until GW steps in with something more official than the Email they sent me (and hopefully whenever a new FAQ hits GW puts this debate to bed no matter which way they rule).

[7 Mile]

You are completely discounting what they did FAQ for chaplain Lemartes. That sums up anything else in the codex with an example of what GW design staff already sees as the way it should be on the table top.

 

Keyword is still unique, its a common sense thing, if the guy is running around with an axe, its an axe, I can see it, anyone else can see it, models rules do not include anything that isn't in the BRB, then it must be an axe that is master crafted, or a sword, so on. Nothing worth getting hung up on to be honest, if he is using the axe he is I1, if its a sword its ap3, maul its +2 str and ap4. All are fairly equal depending on whom they are equipped or how said model is set up to take advantage of this.

 

GW goofed in the summary you referenced, because even by your definition you now have a power weapon that qualifies as neither, if we are going to go purely on straight text. The weapon has a special rule, however the weapon has no unique rules, therefore it is not a unique weapon, but it has a special rule so you are not aloud to look at the model to see what he is carrying. Meaning its a mystery and we must live the rest of our lives (until new FAQ shows up) wondering what that thing that appears to be a sword, or axe, really is.... I have a hunch it will follow the same lines as Lemartes and his Blood Crozius though, our only legitimate BA source to base our info off of so far.

 

Edit** I don't even play BA, so I'm not invested one way or the other, I play SW, whom they did a slightly better job on their FAQ from what I have seen. This is my take looking at it as a third party. If I was playing a blood angels player, and he was using a glaive encarmine that appeared to be an axe, as a unusual power weapon then I would tell him to stop cheating himself.

[JamesI]

I am not discounting the FAQ. In fact as I have said in the past the FAQ proves my point.

 

The FAQ only applies to those FAQed. (Lemartes, Khârn, Typhus as examples). By my logic without the FAQ Lemartes had a uniqure power weapon and the FAQ was required to make it a maul. So a FAQ is required to make The Axe Mortalis a power axe.

 

 

At no point is "unique rule" defined. But special rule is clearly defined. And if you have a special rule, you can not be an Axe, Sword, Maul, spear without a FAQ.

 

And remember, GW emails have declared it a unique power weapon. Not an official source, but until a FAQ its as good as I have.

 

The question of whether we want the SG or Dante to have power axes is irrelevant. Personally, I see the RAW as they have unusual power weapons. But I will not be disappointed if GW FAQs it the other way.

 

I agree with you that the section is poorly written. Using Special rule in one part and unique rule in another made it difficult to understand which GW really wanted. Personally I think every weapon like this should be FAQed (Look at Logan Grimnar. Why would anyone use his weapon as an axe rather than a powerfist if the Axe part isn't an unusual power weapon?)

[7 Mile]

Well Sir, I think GW's typo has lead to you (and others) cheating yourself.

 

I can see how people argue it both ways though, unfortunately it is something that will hopefully get clarification, and also something that will need to be rolled off on for two players who adamantly disagree.

 

Logan Grimnars axe morkai is specifically stated as being used as either a frost blade or as a power fist. A frost blade is covered in the FAQ as +1 str, ap3. His is actually one of the easier ones, since its stated that he is wielding something different than what he appears modeled as, as part of the weapon's unique rules.

[SamaNagol]

There is on surface value no reason to Errata Lemartes' Crozius which is nothing more than a Master Crafter Crozius than there is to Errata Dante's Master Crafted Power Axe.

 

But they chose to do so specifically.... so EITHER they messed up and forgot to Errata every Unique character's weaponry OR any Power Weapon with a special rule simply reverts to AP3, base Ini, base Str and they felt Lemartes specifically needed an Errata making his weapon a Maul to balance him.

 

We will find out when they release the next FAQ hopefully soon.

[JamesI]

And with GW answering this officially in the new FAQs, this thread will be closed.

 

Awesome to have an answer, very surprised by the ruling that Astorath is AP2 and initiative 1.