Enzephalon Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Hi guys, I have a Vindicator sitting around on my desk. It's half painted and I only used it once, because usually there are no points left when my two predators are rolling around on the field. (It died horribly on turn 2 btw) With the new system for hull points it may not live as long (haven't had time to play test it properly), but it certainly is a lot more difficult to shut down. As long as it lives it will shoot the crap out of the enemies. The changes concerning cover, as well as the changes to the damage dealt to vehicles (full strength even if the template is only partially on top of the vehicle) are definitely in favor of the Vindicator. And given the changes to power weapons and the increased durability of terminators he will provide a fairly reliable threat against these kinds of targets via it's AP of 2. Tell me what you think... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I think the main problem is that to have the best results with certain tanks is that you need to field more than one of them. I see no reason why a Vindicator would be any less effective than previous: move 6", shoot 24". Keep it's sides in cover to get obscured rolls and it should be fine. My two pence worth anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3110063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 With the new system for hull points it may not live as long (haven't had time to play test it properly), but it certainly is a lot more difficult to shut down. All my games so far have been against heavy mech and I'm not convinced that's correct. The new damage table is a little more forgiving, but on the other hand AP2 weapons get the +1 and AP1 the +2. With glances removing hullpoints and vehicles being easier to destroy in CC it's even worse. I've actually suffered from underestimating just how good glances are when I destroyed vehicles a lot faster than I think I would and got caught in the open with my jumpers. A volley of bolt pistol fire to AV10 has gone from nuisance to death sentence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3110066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Against your heavy mech opponents was there much AV13 and if so, how did it hold up? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3110070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzephalon Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 What I was trying to say is that the Vindicator will be more likely to shoot every turn as long as it is alive, because you can't shut down the shooting via glancing hits. My statement wasn't precise enough. Of course he will die via penetrating hits, but this has been the case in 5th too. Ed.: I will field it in cooperation with my two Predators, so there are enough threats for my opponent to distract him from the Vindicator. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3110076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Against your heavy mech opponents was there much AV13 and if so, how did it hold up? Mostly IG, so lots of AV14 and 12 with weak rear armor. For shooting it was ok I guess, I rarely fire at high av without melta anyway. Glances are the big thing though, it's nice and predictable, can't be reversed in away, provides you with a nice LoS and movement block and dangerous terrain... It's the damage result I always hoped to roll in 5th and now we get it automatically by just glancing. The issue with the Vindi is that the main gun got a lot more useful, but it's still short ranged, and short range is a very dangerous place for vehicles to be in 6th. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3110084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklighter Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 This in my thinking on the matter. Are Vehicles going to be good in 6th not because of the rules, but because of perceived meta. If people are tooling up lists to deal with hoards of infantry and using skyfire platforms to deal with flyers are anti-tank weapons going to take enough of a back seat to make an armoured list king? sure they can be glanced to death but if you weaponry isn't strong enough even that's going to be hard to do. If you can keep your vehicles out of assault range that is! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3110163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
liberate_tutame Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Am I wrong in thinking that the Vindicator can't snap fire because it's Ordnance? In that case any shot get a sunned or shaken result shuts the tank down the next turn right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3110408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Am I wrong in thinking that the Vindicator can't snap fire because it's Ordnance? In that case any shot get a sunned or shaken result shuts the tank down the next turn right? I don't have my rulebook handy, but I believe you are correct. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3110496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlund Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I've always loved the Vindicator to sweep away any infantry. It's even more important now that Power Weapons aren't AP2. The upgrade to how it handles vehicles is just gross. Blood Angels Vindicators are Fast, though. They cost 30 extra points for the privilege of moving 12 inches and firing 24 inches. Have the new rules changed that in relation to the standard Codex: Space Marine Vindicator only being able to move 6" and fire? - Marty Lund Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3110574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
liberate_tutame Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Well, if I'm right about stun and shaken lock then I think they are fairly junky still. Can't see them replacing a Baal with heavy bolters any time soon sadly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3110960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklighter Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 The way I read it it's only infantry models that can't snap fire ordanace weapons. So even if the Vindicator is stuned or shaken you can still shoot, but you'd only -1 from the scatter roll for being BS1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3110966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
liberate_tutame Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 The way I read it it's only infantry models that can't snap fire ordanace weapons. So even if the Vindicator is stuned or shaken you can still shoot, but you'd only -1 from the scatter roll for being BS1. This is correct. BRB p. 51. In that case I was wrong... Me thinks it might be time to bring my linebreaker out of retirement. :yes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3110979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodReavers Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 I wanted to verify it, but on page 12. "Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots." Still, a vindicator with 13 front armor hanging out in the rear of the army or coming in as reserves might survive long enough to lob a few shells into any 2+ armor saves or parking lot before being taken out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3111289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklighter Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 I wanted to verify it, but on page 12. "Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots." Still, a vindicator with 13 front armor hanging out in the rear of the army or coming in as reserves might survive long enough to lob a few shells into any 2+ armor saves or parking lot before being taken out. On page 12 of what book? It has no mention of Ordnance weapons on it at all in the main rules. Ok I found a rule on Page 33 of the BRB under blast & large blast. The last paragraph says that blast weapons cannot be snap fired. I guess that'll make the Vindicator a little less useful. DAMN! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3111479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rottimus Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 The fact that it's strength 10 all over the blast (i.e not just the hole) makes is a viable, flexible anti tank weapon... I used it mostly to decimate high toughness infantry (broadside suits, termies, etc etc) but it's now actually worth taking against say... imp guard... stg 10 + double roll pick the highest is almost guaranteed to at least glance a vehicle... take 3! booya! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3111567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlund Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Ok I found a rule on Page 33 of the BRB under blast & large blast. The last paragraph says that blast weapons cannot be snap fired. I guess that'll make the Vindicator a little less useful. DAMN! I'm still confused as to why a Blood Angels Vindicator (fast) would feel any pressing need to snap-fire the Demolisher Cannon. Is it just that you're worried about a penetrating hit that Shakes or Stuns it? I'm much less worried about getting vehicles stun-locked in 6th Edition with better cover saves, no stun on a glancing hit, and the fact that 3 Hull Points from glances and/or penetrating hits kill a Rhino chassis outright. - Marty Lund Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3111848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklighter Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Ok I found a rule on Page 33 of the BRB under blast & large blast. The last paragraph says that blast weapons cannot be snap fired. I guess that'll make the Vindicator a little less useful. DAMN! I'm still confused as to why a Blood Angels Vindicator (fast) would feel any pressing need to snap-fire the Demolisher Cannon. Is it just that you're worried about a penetrating hit that Shakes or Stuns it? I'm much less worried about getting vehicles stun-locked in 6th Edition with better cover saves, no stun on a glancing hit, and the fact that 3 Hull Points from glances and/or penetrating hits kill a Rhino chassis outright. - Marty Lund I originaly thought that the Vinidcator would have an advantage in this edition being able to snap fire when stuned n sutch, but once all the bits of the rules where found my initial thought was wrong. I'm not worried that it's lost anything this edition, I'd just missed a bit of the rules and thought it had a huge advantage. Not needed 6s to hit if stuned or shaken would have been a huge boon even if it did scatter a little bit further. It wasn't even a BA only loop-hole it would have made all Vindicators just as good. Sadly I was wrong.... Again, lol! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3111860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oka Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Ok I found a rule on Page 33 of the BRB under blast & large blast. The last paragraph says that blast weapons cannot be snap fired. I guess that'll make the Vindicator a little less useful. DAMN! I'm still confused as to why a Blood Angels Vindicator (fast) would feel any pressing need to snap-fire the Demolisher Cannon. Is it just that you're worried about a penetrating hit that Shakes or Stuns it? I'm much less worried about getting vehicles stun-locked in 6th Edition with better cover saves, no stun on a glancing hit, and the fact that 3 Hull Points from glances and/or penetrating hits kill a Rhino chassis outright. - Marty Lund I originaly thought that the Vinidcator would have an advantage in this edition being able to snap fire when stuned n sutch, but once all the bits of the rules where found my initial thought was wrong. I'm not worried that it's lost anything this edition, I'd just missed a bit of the rules and thought it had a huge advantage. Not needed 6s to hit if stuned or shaken would have been a huge boon even if it did scatter a little bit further. It wasn't even a BA only loop-hole it would have made all Vindicators just as good. Sadly I was wrong.... Again, lol! I found something that may contradict the no snap-shoting ordnance: Page 51 brb under ORDNANCE WEAPONS 2nd paragraph, 2nd line: ... A non-vehicle model carrying an Ordnance weapon cannot fire it in the shooting phase if he moved in the preceding Movement phase and cannot fire it as Snap Shots... As it is written it only prevents non-vehicle models to move and shoot or to snap fire. So it MAY also be reed as: "A Vehicle model carrying an Ordnance weapon can fire it in the shooting phase if he moved, and can fire it as snap shots." but then again on the page 13 it says that ordnance cannot be snap fired. Tho, maybe we could argue that it meant on infantry models. Finally Id' throw a dice on a game as it shows up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3112474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklighter Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Ok I found a rule on Page 33 of the BRB under blast & large blast. The last paragraph says that blast weapons cannot be snap fired. I guess that'll make the Vindicator a little less useful. DAMN! I'm still confused as to why a Blood Angels Vindicator (fast) would feel any pressing need to snap-fire the Demolisher Cannon. Is it just that you're worried about a penetrating hit that Shakes or Stuns it? I'm much less worried about getting vehicles stun-locked in 6th Edition with better cover saves, no stun on a glancing hit, and the fact that 3 Hull Points from glances and/or penetrating hits kill a Rhino chassis outright. - Marty Lund I originaly thought that the Vinidcator would have an advantage in this edition being able to snap fire when stuned n sutch, but once all the bits of the rules where found my initial thought was wrong. I'm not worried that it's lost anything this edition, I'd just missed a bit of the rules and thought it had a huge advantage. Not needed 6s to hit if stuned or shaken would have been a huge boon even if it did scatter a little bit further. It wasn't even a BA only loop-hole it would have made all Vindicators just as good. Sadly I was wrong.... Again, lol! I found something that may contradict the no snap-shoting ordnance: Page 51 brb under ORDNANCE WEAPONS 2nd paragraph, 2nd line: ... A non-vehicle model carrying an Ordnance weapon cannot fire it in the shooting phase if he moved in the preceding Movement phase and cannot fire it as Snap Shots... As it is written it only prevents non-vehicle models to move and shoot or to snap fire. So it MAY also be reed as: "A Vehicle model carrying an Ordnance weapon can fire it in the shooting phase if he moved, and can fire it as snap shots." but then again on the page 13 it says that ordnance cannot be snap fired. Tho, maybe we could argue that it meant on infantry models. Finally Id' throw a dice on a game as it shows up. Yes it could fire an Ordanace weapon, but only if it isn't blast or Large blast. As per page 33 of the main rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3112849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I am a newb, but I do think it's better than it was. So personally I would like to field 1-2. The Baal is fine to, but as mentioned it's quite the effective Anti Armour weapon to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3171256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I usually field one of them, and it quite reliably shoots twice per game now, thanks to night fighting and new glancing rules. What's even better though in my opinion is the psychological effect on most enemies, who will try to get rid of it at any cost. Often, it pulls a lot more fire than it is worth, and forces the enemy to maneuver around it for at least a turn. Also, 24'' is not yet a close-combat dangerzone, especially with pre-measuring it should be very easy to stay out of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3171287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Its certainly went from lol-bad to useable, but the scatter makes it really unreliable against infantry. I haven't had a chance to use it against tanks too much, so maybe that would be a saving grace. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3171435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angels_Sanguine Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 You can't ever fire a blast weapon as a snapshot. From frag missile to demolished cannon, vehicle or not Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3171535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I'm skeptical to vindis, but my impression is if your gonna do it you need 3. BA Vindis are fast though, that sure is nice since the biggest issue with it is range. Though i never fielded them, i have played against them though and i think they are to unreliable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255638-vindicator-in-6th-edition/#findComment-3171688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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