Abaddonshand Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 With 6th having dropped challenges into the mix, I'm wondering if daemon hammers on every justicar is the way to go. For instance, in my 1500 list, I plan on running 2 strikes squads and an interceptor squad, all ten men, all with 2 psycannon, all with psybolts, and hammers on the justicars. However, I'm considering the possibility of variety. I'm tempted to give one justicar a halberd and one a pair of falchions. If our justicars had access to melta bombs, then a halberd and bombs combo would be a no brainer, but obviously not an option for us. What do you think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 See my thoughts in this thread :P In short, I think on Terminator armored Justicars, hammers are still okay due to the survivability of Terminator armor but not the only way to go if you're expecting a lot of power armored opposition. They're still ideal for capping other Terminators though. On power armored Justicars I am now in favor of halberds / falchions and putting the hammer on "not the Justicar." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3110668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abaddonshand Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 See my thoughts in this thread :lol: In short, I think on Terminator armored Justicars, hammers are still okay due to the survivability of Terminator armor but not the only way to go if you're expecting a lot of power armored opposition. They're still ideal for capping other Terminators though. On power armored Justicars I am now in favor of halberds / falchions and putting the hammer on "not the Justicar." My problem is I only have the points for one upgrade weapon per unit, so the benefit is best on the justicar (the risk of perils doesn't bother me that much). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3110737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlund Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 It depends on the unit role. For Strike Squads I'm inclined to give the Justicar a Halberd. S5, AP3 at I6 is enough to keep any random MEQ squad leader in check through the challenge system. If he gets challenged by a superior character (an IC with 2+ Armor or an Invulnerable save) the I6 means he'll at least get his attack rolls in before he gets creamed. Daemon hammer on the Justicar seems like the worst option, since his 3+ Armor Save, with no Invulnerable save, and 1 Wound basically means he's made of tissue paper - a bad candidate to be swinging on Initiative 1 in a system with dueling. - Marty Lund Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3110799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abaddonshand Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 That's some good advice. The first justicar is already modelled with the hammer, so he'll stay that way, but I'm seriously tempted to go for a halberd on the second justicar, and falchions on the interceptor justicar, purely for rule of cool. Although, if I put a halberd on this squad too that would save me 10points, which I could probably deploy elsewhere... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3110824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Hmm. I still like the Hammer on the Justicar; it's nice to get the extra attack. If you're worried about dying to a challenge, you could always just bow out. Admittedly, it isn't the no-brainer option anymore, and Halberd or even plain Sword would work, too. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3110843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Then....what do Grey Knights do against tanks if you're not going to give them Daemonhammers? You can't rely on Psycannons forever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3110852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abaddonshand Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 Krak grenades against rear armour, psyflemen, dreadknights, hammers on TErminators/ paladins, storm ravens, might of Titan/ hammerhand stacking are all ways to deal with armour, not including psycannon. My real fear is a wraith lord in CC. Many moons ago my ravenwing chaplain came a cropper against a wraith lord, and I've been wary of them ever since. However, I don't actually see the hammer helping against them, as now they'll just challenge the justicar to kill the hammer, then munch the squad next turn. Now krak grenades can be used against them, it makes the hammer even less valuable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3110900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Against AV10 rear, a squad of PAGK can assault and get quite a few glances especially with hammerhand (often enough to kill it). Maybe even a pentrate or two. I'm tempted to replace my Justicar's Hammer with a MC Halberd. It's the same price and might give him an extra edge. Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3110925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkmagi Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I always run my pagk with 2 hammers with one on the justcar and one as a backup... but I'm thinking I should move both hammers to regular guys in favor of a halberd. I'm in the one hammer per 5 guys camp as they are so cheap compared to a powerfist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3110928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abaddonshand Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 I've decided to go with a halberd on the second squad for definite. This gives me flexibility, and I plan on both squads supporting each other in any case. As for the interceptors. I've decided to go for a halberd too. There's a thread about challenges on warseer just now, and it's been pretty clear that to be successful in challenges you have to be either super Killy + super tough, or super fast. Since PA justicars don't have the survivability to be striking at I1, I'm sacrificing the super Killy for super fast. Thanks for all the help folks :yes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3110986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Against AV10 rear, a squad of PAGK can assault and get quite a few glances especially with hammerhand (often enough to kill it). Maybe even a pentrate or two. Why are you using hammerhand? Did you forget that every model already comes with Krak grenades? Even if the vehicle moved, you ought to strip 3 Hull Points per turn on average, and that doesn't count if one model does have a hammer, and uses it instead of the grenades. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3111102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Old reflexes ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3111112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Old reflexes :) No problem. The interesting thing about this thread, which is what I love about good BnC discussions, is that I think I've changed my mind. I still like having one or two Hammers in each squad, because the still do good work across the spectrum of threats. They are also exceedingly cheap for what you get (just compare to the cost of a Thunder hammer in any other Marine army). However, they are no longer essential to taking out vehicles, and monstrous creatures, so it really isn't a big deal if you allocate them to a regular Joe trooper, instead of the Justicar; "maximizing" the effect from each investment just isn't all that essential. Especially, when you have to factor in protecting your Justicar in challenges - or from a more aggressive standpoint, trying to figure out how to maximize your killing potential in challenges. The fact of the matter is, a Justicar with a Halberd (especially a Master-crafted Halberd), stands a pretty decent chance of taking out any and every Power Armour equipped Squad Sergeant/equivalent in a challenge, and stands pretty good odds against most enemy heroes. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3111120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 If we're talking about Strikes, its usually something I'd upgrade last. Strikes are pricey enough with a full squad and double psycannon (ditch the Rhino, its going to die Turn 1 now and they can Deepstrike where you want anyway). In fact, I'd take psybolts over combat upgrades now, S5 shooting is pretty nasty against anything not AV12 or higher (glances = death now). For Interceptors, you want a hammer and an incinerator. They're a harassment unit, smashing tanks and heavy weapon squads in the backfield means they are unlikely to fight many good enemy heroes. For Purifiers, Flame Knight should take a halberd, then just take the hammer on a regular squadmate. Purifiers are much more likely to fight enemy combat specialists or get challenged (they are the best generalist unit in the game period), and I6 is clutch. For Terminators, again I'd take the halberd. You have immense staying power, and its only really other TDA Sarges or TDA characters whom you can't kill. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3111195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 For Purifiers, Flame Knight should take a halberd, then just take the hammer on a regular squadmate. Purifiers are much more likely to fight enemy combat specialists or get challenged (they are the best generalist unit in the game period), and I6 is clutch. Luckily, that's how I already had my Purifiers setup, since they all get the same number of attacks I didn't put the Hammer on the Knight o' Flame. For Terminators, again I'd take the halberd. You have immense staying power, and its only really other TDA Sarges or TDA characters whom you can't kill. Will have to look at my Terminator Justicar; I think I gave that dude a Hammer. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3112134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 I run 10 man GKT squads and give the justicar a hammer but I back up with a second hammer in the squad Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3112137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
benmothershaw Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I'm suprised nobody uses the warding stave for Purifiers, 2++ is pretty nice if you use it properly. i.e. Knight of flame uses watch out sir to pass saves onto the stave in close combat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3113132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I'm surprised no one is using a warding stave as they are great for soaking wounds that ignore armor saves. I run daemonhammer on a squad member to keep it safe. G ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3113542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abaddonshand Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 Warding staves are prohibitively expensive IMO. I've only just accepted that the librarian should take one (before hand I only saw them having a place on Techmarines and Apothecaries), and now they don't even benefit from perils protection in CC. I've decided to bite the bullet and put halberds on all of my power armoured justicars. I've done rough scenarios in my head, and the hammer doesn't really do much against a squad of 5 terminators if it even gets to swing. With hammerhand the squad can still do AP3 wounds on wraithlords, and Kraks allow for glance-killing of any walker with front AV12 or lower, or any other vehicle with rear AV12 or lower, making land raiders and monoliths the only headaches (and let's face it, if I was relying on hammer justicars to take these down, my list and tactics would need serious work!). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3114490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 For being a possible game changer the stave is reasonably priced in my opinion. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3114809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abaddonshand Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 For being a possible game changer the stave is reasonably priced in my opinion. G ;) I don't dispute that, I merely think it's too expensive for my lists ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3115184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Staves are only really needed on Librarians, I wouldn't bother on squads Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/255680-justicar-weapons-in-6th/#findComment-3117603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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