Anyone wish the Heresy didnt happen?

[gogmagog]

I love the optimism of the Great Crusade, and given the choice I would love to just play a space marine army from that time, all of the time. I hope its true that forge world are making a Great Crusade book.Anyone feel the same? or not?

[Bulwyf]

I have to say I would have liked to have seen what the fate of the Legions and Primarchs would have been if they had completed their Crusade. I can't remember which book it was but it was more than hinted that once that was done the Astartes and their Primarchs would have no real role in the Imperium at that point. It would have added more if the true "Heresy" had occurred once that was almost done and half the Primarchs sussed out that the Emperor was going to "retire" them because he had no use for them any more.

[Hyaenidae]

Nope, because I love the depressing fatalism of 40k more. The Great Crusade was just a wonderful set-up to the fall of man, in my opinion.

 

Grim-Dark, all they way.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Not really. Like 1000heathens, I love the horrid bleakness of the 40k universe. I recently listened to the audiobook Malediction, and (no spoilers here, no sir!), it personified that feel so perfectly I nearly cried at the end.

[JamesI]

Hmm, the setting would not be as interesting to me without the heresy.

[Cyrox]

No, the Heresy is one of my favourite things about this hobby - even the fiction has its own history :yes:

[Lord Scytha]

Anyone wish the Hersy didnt happen?

 

The Emperor probably.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Anyone wish the Hersy didnt happen?

 

The Emperor probably.

 

Horus, for certain.

[Myxx]

Anyone wish the Hersy didnt happen?

 

The Emperor probably.

 

Horus, for certain.

 

+1

[Legatus]

I wish the Heresy series didn't happen.

[Vesper]

Anyone wish the Hersy didnt happen?

 

The Emperor probably.

 

Laughed a bit, thank you.

[Aleax]

Hi.

 

If the Heresy didn't happen, the Emperor will be alive.

Because he is a god admidetly in a human body, before 40,000 era he will end war in the galaxy. (so the Primarchs will go the way of the dodo)

 

There won't be anymore war thus...no W40K at all then. :D

No Heresy, or W40K. Choose your poison.

 

Well my personal choice is W40K. W40K is unreal, so it's all good. ^_^

 

Cheers.

 

edit:

I wish the Heresy series didn't happen.

Now I am interested to know why, having not read any BL books, except through others precisely.

[Haranin]

Read mechanicum.... The heresy really sucks for humanity. Another decade would have seen humanity make real strides.

 

The pain of the Hersey is what makes the setting... Whole fall of man, past golden age etc.

 

Time to fight until you die and drop!

[Aleax]

Man I read the wrong original post. ;) I was refering to the 2nd post in the thread, mostly. Or not. Anyway:

 

The Great Crusade might have been cool to play in, but I think that these would have been more who butchers the enemy faster, marines always winning with minimal losses...so like playing the game in godmode, mostly.

 

A different game entirely.

 

Is this my taste?

 

Well, if this godmode is handled right, as difficult it sounds of being set right.

 

Say... for instance, a time counter for the marine player, or a max casualties dwelt at the end of the game, or two marines fighting enemies, and the winner is the faster, representing the competitive Primarchs struggling for the title of Warmaster - who will be on top? - I might give it a try. ;)

 

Cheers.

[MadDoc]

I wish the Heresy series didn't happen.

Now I am interested to know why, having not read any BL books, except through others precisely.

Please don't get him started, we really don't need (or want) another round of how the world should be according to Legatus. ;)

 

Edit - Just to make things clear for those chronically bereft of a sense of humour, the above is what the rest of us call a joke.

[Hagamar]

How could you not want the heresy ?

 

The heresy is due to the Emperor himself for being to glorious to the eyes of one of its sons (later found in the series) and being smack to the ground by the emperor hands in front of one of its brother... Read the first Heretic its a must... Once that is understood simply go back into the books and re-follow Herebus treachery pattern... to Horus being play for being the genetic resurection proudness of the emperor.

 

Must say I love the re-read that the audio books offers. Even stuck in traffic you can get some Warhammer 40K...

 

 

"I understand the joy that the great crusade could have brought... but the fact is I would have appreciate it even more if you would have play during the time that the heresy take place... Imagine one day your thinking your on the good side only to be drag toward being the heretic in the end"

[Aleax]

;) Hi MadHoc, so DA are HtH specialists too? No offense. ^_^

 

To Legatus: well they have retconed the fluff, haven't they? Hopefully not as much as they did after Deathwing/Space Hulk, with 2nd edition.... ;)

 

Cheers.

[Azarias]

I'm going to have to concur with most of the comments here. I'm glad the heresy happened because it adds a layer of complexity to the entire universe of WH40K. Without it, all you've got is a vanilla-flavored mythos where the Imperium represents good, post-enlightenment, "secular" (though antitheistic would be a better word for the Imperial Truth) humanism. The Imperial Truth even manages to appropriate the role of "good," while presenting everything and everyone opposed to it as "bad" in a black-and-white, uninteresting philosophy. Had the Heresy not happened, the texture of the mythos would likely strike me as simply boring in the way that rote, good versus evil do.

 

Instead, the Heresy deconstructs everything the Imperium stands for by showing that there are alternative ways of understanding the universe. See, for example, that quote by Kargos the Bloodspitter: “Though the gates that stand between the mortal world and the immortal Realm of Chaos are now closed to me, still I would rather die having glimpsed eternity than never to have stirred the cold furrow of mortal life. I embrace death without regret as I embraced life without fear.” Hell, a comparison can be drawn between the Heresy's detonation of a pre-established truth and falsehood and the way in which the same thing happens to Western culture after WW1. You can see how the first stanza of Yeats' poem "The Second Coming" seems to apply to both moments:

 

Turning and turning in the widening gyre

The falcon cannot hear the falconer;

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

 

Both moments (the Horus Heresy and World War 1) represent a collapse of an accepted view, opening up the ideological anarchy that marked the 20th century in all its facets. The best part is that these viewpoints have their own sense of worth, or truth, no matter how antithetical or horrifying some (e.g. fascism) may appear. And it is the interplay between these ideologies that I find absolutely fascinating. Of course, the comparison becomes fairly bizarre when I display the same kind of interest in trial surrounding Brancusi's Golden Bird and in the way in which ADB presents Lorgar's spiritual investigations. But that's my own prerogative.

 

So to summarize: the Horus Heresy introduces a whole world of complexity into what could otherwise turn into an intellectually vapid science fiction universe. I'm glad it turned out that way.

[Legatus]

To Legatus: well they have retconed the fluff, haven't they? Hopefully not as much as they did after Deathwing/Space Hulk, with 2nd edition.... ;)

Some of the retcons are pretty extensive. Stuff like Legions being 100,000 Marines string instead of 10,000. Hundreds of Chapters being created in 2nd Founding instead of about 50. Ultramar consisting of 500 worlds instead of eight. The Ultramarines learn at the beginning of the 7 year Heresy about it, instead of at the very end when the palace is under siege. Stuff like that.

 

Aside from the retcons, it's the removing of any kind of sense of legend. Reading about Primarchs walking around, doing mundane stuff, and talking smack to each other is not really the same as reading in a Codex how legends tell that the Primarchs did some great deeds millennia ago.

[Marshal Rohr]

Unless, of course you're one of those people who like to identify with their heroes. If all we knew about Lorgar was he was reprimanded for being slow (like we did until TFH), he'd seem pretty lame compared to Angron and Russ (which is pretty true of how people saw him before the series). Now we have an in detail description of him going from faithful son to the herald of the primordial annihilator.

[Bane of Angels]

Aside from the retcons, it's the removing of any kind of sense of legend. Reading about Primarchs walking around, doing mundane stuff, and talking smack to each other is not really the same as reading in a Codex how legends tell that the Primarchs did some great deeds millennia ago.

 

Yeah I feel the same, too much spoiling of the personal nostalgia of how I remember the Heresy which is why I stopped reading the novels.

 

I like the grim dark nature of the game but it seems that over the last few editions they have been bludgeoning us with it, I seem to be reading the stuff and raising an eyebrow with some of the dafter recons in the newer codexes. Not a fan in the slightest of all this over the top doom and gloom, end is nigh, humanity is totally doomed, two minutes to midnight rubbish.

 

But at the end of the day it's whatever floats your boat.

 

So in response to the original post I'd say yes I'm glad the heresy happened because it was such a major event in terms of the development of the Imperium and Chaos but would really like to see how mankind would have progressed without it.

[Black.Hunter]

The Emperor probably.

 

Cant argue there. :lol:

[Conn Eremon]

The Ultramarines learn at the beginning of the 7 year Heresy about it, instead of at the very end when the palace is under siege.

 

Dear lord, seriously? That's one retcon that was desperately needed then. Who thought it made sense that the Ultramarines were that ignorant and blind seven years running?

[Legatus]

Who thought it made sense that the Ultramarines were that ignorant and blind seven years running?

*lifts hand" There are descriptions for the contemporary Ultramar and Fenris describing that over the past ten millennia there were times when they were shut off of the Imperium for a few years. The Great Crusade went on for 200 years and span the entire galaxy, with distances to vast that a message can arrive months after being sent. I would see no problem in the Ultramarines Legion campaiging in the far east not hearing of the other Legions for a hand full of years.

What's more, after the Word Bearers attacked the Ultramarines on Calth they summoned a warp storm that cut them off and prevented them from travelling or communicating for at least the following two years.

So, instead of summoning that great warp storm before attacking the Ultramarines, keeping them in the dark and adhering to the last two decades of fluff, BL instead has the Word Bearers attack them first and then summon the storm, restricting the Ultramarines to sitting on their asses for the next couple of years of the heresy. So, previously: The Ultramarines did nothing because they did not know something was going on. Now: The Ultramarines knew what was going on, and still did nothing. Great retcon there, BL.

 

(To be fair, after having sat still for two years, the Ultramarines will then probably get more involved in the remaining four or five years of the Heresy. Of course, that is also a retcon.)

[Conn Eremon]

Who thought it made sense that the Ultramarines were that ignorant and blind seven years running?

*lifts hand" There are descriptions for the contemporary Ultramar and Fenris describing that over the past ten millennia there were times when they were shut off of the Imperium for a few years. The Great Crusade went on for 200 years and span the entire galaxy, with distances to vast that a message can arrive months after being sent. I would see no problem in the Ultramarines Legion campaiging in the far east not hearing of the other Legions for a hand full of years.

What's more, after the Word Bearers attacked the Ultramarines on Calth they summoned a warp storm that cut them off and prevented them from travelling or communicating for at least the following two years.

So, instead of summoning that great warp storm before attacking the Ultramarines, keeping them in the dark and adhering to the last two decades of fluff, BL instead has the Word Bearers attack them first and then summon the storm, restricting the Ultramarines to sitting on their asses for the next couple of years of the heresy. So, previously: The Ultramarines did nothing because they did not know something was going on. Now: The Ultramarines knew what was going on, and still did nothing. Great retcon there, BL.

 

(To be fair, after having sat still for two years, the Ultramarines will then probably get more involved in the remaining four or five years of the Heresy. Of course, that is also a retcon.)

 

But the period of the Heresy and the Great Crusade isn't shown to have its components all that separate, either during or before the series. You yourself said months, as opposed to the years or decades of later millennia. It's expected in the later millennia, especially in the 41st Millennia, where you placed those moments where Ultramar and Fenris are cut off for a few years. But during the Great Crusade, not at all. And while the period of the Heresy was rife with Warp storms and Terra was largely cut off, it is also described as being random and fickle. Meaning that it wasn't a total black out, more like a detour. There's no reason for the Ultramarines to be in the dark for seven whole years. Especially considering how vast the Ultramarines are, whether before or after the numbers jump, and how their gathering in Ultramar wasn't immediate. Meaning that there were Ultramarines closer to the conflicts going on in the beginning.

 

I'm sorry, but good for BL on this one. I'd rather have a frustrated Ultramarines force that is landlocked in Ultramar than an Ultramarines force that's blind, deaf and dumb, lounging around in Ultramar until someone breaks through to tell them differently.