Wound Allocation Challenge!

[Grey Mage]

Ok guys, the WAC is here!

 

No, not the WAAC, thats are your LGS waiting for you.

 

Im here to ask people to figure out and solid order of operations for how wound allocation works, involving all permutations of shooting and CC, as well as all permutations of the looks out sir rule!

 

The winner will be selected by myself and darkgaurd, and will get their post enshrined in our stickies *yup, basically your workin for free guys- enjoy*

 

So, post them up and let people see about knocking them to pieces.

[StrayCatt]

That's an awful tall order ... Mixed toughness, mixed saves, characters ...

 

Seems to me you would need around 14 scenarios or more ...

 

Cc and shooting for SW, BT, BA, GK, C:SM, C:CSM, and demons ...

 

Might I suggest we break it down and have someone tackle one of each ...

[DarkGuard]

Well, I doubt there will need to be different permutations for all the different armies, as they largely follow the same rules. Paladins and Chaos Champions for example follow the same order in both cases. Tau units led by Shas'Ui and Tactical squads will follow the same order. It is pretty much the permutations that Grey Mage described.

[ShinyRhino]

I'll take a stab at this when I have the free time. Until then, it is worth noting that mention should also be made of the Focused Fire rule and how it interacts with wound allocation.

[Aidoneus]

As I understand it, shooting works as follows...

 

1) Measure distance.

2) Declare target.

3) Determine which models in the target unit are in cover.

4) Declare whether you are focus-firing, and if so, on which Cover Save value.

5) Roll to-hit, distinguishing shots from different weapon types (distinguished by different Str, AP, and/or special rules).

6) Determine majority Toughness of target unit (by model). Use the highest in case of ties.

7) Roll to-wound with first weapon type. These wounds make up the first Group in the Wound Pool.

8) Roll to-wound with second weapon type (making the second Group), etc. until all to-wounds are rolled.

9) The target unit chooses whether to Go To Ground.

 

Here's where it gets slightly tricky.

 

If the target unit's models all have the same saving throw (including all armour, invuln, and cover saves (only count those in the appropriate level of cover, if focused-fired)):

10.a) The shooting player chooses which Group of wounds to resolve first.

11.a) The target unit rolls saves against all the wounds from the chosen Group.

12.a) Allocate the first unsaved wound to the target model closest to the shooting unit. Only count models in line of sight from the shooting unit, within the weapons' maximum distance, and in the appropriate level of cover (if focus-fired).

13.a) If that model was a Character, make a Look Out, Sir roll, if you want to, nominating one model in the unit within 6" of the character before rolling.

14.a) If the Look Out, Sir is passed, the unsaved wound is allocated to the nominated model. Reduce that model's Wounds by 1. If this lowers its Wounds to 0, remove it as a casualty.

15.a) If the Look Out, Sir was failed or not attempted (including if the closest model was not a character), reduce the closest model's Wounds by 1. If this lowers its Wounds to 0, remove it as a casualty.

16.a) Repeat steps 12.a-15.a for every unsaved wound in the chosen Group in the Wound Pool.

17.a) Repeat steps 10.a-16.a for every wound in the next Group chosen by the shooting player, etc. until all wounds have been resolved, or there are no models left in the target unit (at least, none that are in line of sight from the shooting unit, in range of the shooting attacks, and in the appropriate level of cover if focus-fired).

 

If the target unit's models do not all have the same saving throw (even if only 1 model is different, and even if they all have the same "best" save!):

10.b} The shooting player chooses which Group of wounds to resolve first.

11.b} Allocate the first wound from the chosen Group to the target model closest to the shooting unit. Only count models in line of sight from the shooting unit, within the weapons' maximum distance, and in the appropriate level of cover (if focus-fired).

12.b} If that model was a Character, make a Look Out, Sir roll, if you want to, nominating one model in the unit within 6" of the character before rolling.

13.b} If the Look Out, Sir is passed, the wound is allocated to the nominated model. That model takes a save. If it fails the save, reduce its Wounds by 1. If this lowers its Wounds to 0, remove it as a casualty.

14.b} If the Look Out, Sir was failed or not attempted (including if the closest model was not a character), the closest model takes a save. If it fails, reduce the its Wounds by 1. If this lowers its Wounds to 0, remove it as a casualty.

15.b} Repeat steps 11.b-14.b for every wound in the chosen Group in the Wound Pool.

16.b} Repeat steps 10.b-15.b for every wound in the next Group chosen by the shooting player, etc. until all wounds have been resolved, or there are no models left in the target unit (at least, none that are in line of sight from the shooting unit, in range of the shooting attacks, and in the appropriate level of cover if focus-fired).

17.b} (placeholder for numbering purposes)

 

18) Repeat steps 1-17 for each unit you want to shoot with this turn.

19) Any enemy units that took at least 25% casualties during the Shooting Phase make Morale Checks (including those that went to ground or were pinned), and fall back if they fail.

 

Give me a little bit to figure out CC, but I think it's pretty similar. Can anyone double-check me on the above? I'm pretty sure it's correct, but I obviously could've missed something.

[Aidoneus]

In CC...

 

1) Declare charge, Overwatch, roll distance, move attackers, declare challenges, etc.

2) Begin with I10. Pile in all models that strike at I10 (not including Hammer of Wrath).

3) Declare which unit each of your I10 models is attacking.

5) Determine majority WS in the target unit (by model). Use the highest in case of ties.

4) Roll to-hit with the first weapon type (distinguished by Str, AP, and special rules).

5) Roll to-hit with the second weapon type, etc. until all I10 attacks are made.

6) Determine majority Toughness in the target unit (by model). Use the highest in case of ties.

7) Roll to-wound with the first weapon type. These wounds make up the first Wound Pool.

8) Roll to-wound with the second weapon type (making the second Wound Pool), etc. until all to-wounds are rolled.

 

9) Wounds are allocated and saved, and Look Out, Sir checks are made, exactly as stated in steps 10-17 of the Shooting explanation, except ignoring any reference to line of sight, range, or cover. For purposes of determining which model is closest in assault, all models in the target unit in base-to-base with a model striking at I10 are considered the closest, and the enemy chooses which order to allocate wounds to them. If there are no models in the target unit left in base-to-base with a model striking at I10, the wound is allocated to the next closest model in the target unit, and so on.

 

10) Repeat steps 2-9 for I9, then I8, etc. until all attacks have been resolved, or there are no enemy models left to attack.

11) Determine assault results (include wounds caused in Challenges).

12) Take Morale checks, fall back, etc. as appropriate.

[StrayCatt]

The only thing I would add is you can still fast dice even if there are multiple save levels, to speed things up. i.e. a unit of 10 PA marines with a termie IC attached. termie is dead center of the targeted unit. There are 5 PA marines closer than the termie, and 5 further away. You fast roll saves for 5 of the wounds ... 2 die ... Fast roll 3 more ... 1 dies ... Etc. if all 5 closet die, then you transition to the Termie. Say he has 2 wounds, then you fast roll 2 saves until he loses one or both wounds. Once he is dead, and assuming there are wounds left, you continue with the rest of the unit. Basically you can group models based on common save and distance. One thing you have wonderfully explained, is that once you start assigning wounds from a particular strength weapon, assuming you have weapons with different strengths, you must allocate all wounds from that pool before moving to a second or subsequent wound pool.

[Aidoneus]

This came up in another thread: what about the rules for Fast Dice? They are terribly written, and simply don't produce the same results as normal allocation. It seems like GW just threw them in without thinking a bit about how they work.

 

For example, let's say you have a unit of Wraiths with 3 whip coil models in front, then a pistol model, then another 2 whip models. You fast dice the 3 front wraiths and fail all 3 saves. What happens? Do you remove 1 and put a wound on another, or does each model take a single wound, since they have each been allocated one wound before saves? Or were they each allocated a wound? It says you allocate to groups, not models. Once you've failed the saves on the group, there are no rules that tell you how to distribute those wounds, so can you distribute them as you like within the group?

 

Or what if you had a character with the same "best save" as his unit. Would he count as part of the same "group" as the rest? So would he only be allocated one wound, which he could get rid of with Look Out, Sir? Or was the character even allocated a wound at all? The Fast Dice rules say you allocate to a group, not a model. Does this completely eliminate the possibility of using Look Out, Sir at all, if you fail all the saves from that group and the character is forced to lose a wound?

 

Edit: Or what about this: closest model is a marine with a lascannon, then 3 more marines, then a Terminator chaplain, then the other 6 marines (including special weapon and sgt). You take 5 wounds. By normal rules, it's a mixed save unit, so you allocate to the lascannon first, taking 1 save at a time until it's dead. By Fast Dice rules, you allocate to the front group of 3 first. You fail 2 and lose one of the two basic marines. Roll 2 more dice, fail 1, remove the other basic marine. Lascannon lives.

 

Why on earth did GW put in the Fast Dice rule? It works completely against their otherwise-consistent (though slow) allocation system. ;)

[dadieau]

How about a single permutation.

 

I have a unit of 5 bikes and a Techmarine on a bike joins them (Codex:SM). The unit is heading for 3 Longfang squads with Wolf Guard in TDA, and turbo boosting with the Techmarine out front. That gives the Wolves 21 missile launcher shots but to make the math easier let's give each unit a lascannon. And just to simplify it we will pretend that they all fire at the same time.

 

3 LC shots, 2 hits, one jink save, and 5 out of 6 times nets a "Look out Sir" and one dead biker, 1/6 chance that it's the Techmarine.

18 Missile Launcher shots, 12 hits, 10 wounds, 5/3 unsaved wounds, "Look out Sir" nets (LC shots included) 5/2 dead bikers, 4 out of 9 times it includes the Techmarine.

 

It means on average 55.5% of the time I'll lose 2 or 3 bikes. But the Techmarine, Sgt and a Biker will still be around. The other 44.5% of the time something worse happens to my bikes and the Tech marine.

[DarkGuard]

It's worth mentioning that Fast Dice only effects units with different armour saves. You're Wraith units and Tactical squads still follow normal rules, they roll everything at once and then remove models, no Fast Dice for them unless some of the models are benefiting from cover saves against low AP weapons.

 

Speaking of low AP weapons, I noticed a slight mistake in your WAC order of operations Aidoneus. You only apply different wound groups (based on AP more than anything) when it comes to rolling save/allocations, not when you roll to hit and wound. Officially the latter two are done simultaneously with any other weapons in the unit. Of course, for those who only have one colour dice etc would follow that method, rolling each separately, but it's not an official ruling.

 

Otherwise it looks good and I can't see any other mistakes, good work on that. :)

[Aidoneus]

It's worth mentioning that Fast Dice only effects units with different armour saves. You're Wraith units and Tactical squads still follow normal rules, they roll everything at once and then remove models, no Fast Dice for them unless some of the models are benefiting from cover saves against low AP weapons.

Ah, yeah. Good catch.

 

Speaking of low AP weapons, I noticed a slight mistake in your WAC order of operations Aidoneus. You only apply different wound groups (based on AP more than anything) when it comes to rolling save/allocations, not when you roll to hit and wound. Officially the latter two are done simultaneously with any other weapons in the unit. Of course, for those who only have one colour dice etc would follow that method, rolling each separately, but it's not an official ruling.

Yeah, this is probably because I only have one color of dice. Still, rolling to-hits separately just builds to rolling to-wounds separately, which is necessary to establish your various dice pools. It's not so much that you need to perform the two steps one after the other, but more that you need to keep the sets of dice separate.

 

Otherwise it looks good and I can't see any other mistakes, good work on that. :)

Thanks!

[DarkGuard]

Speaking of low AP weapons, I noticed a slight mistake in your WAC order of operations Aidoneus. You only apply different wound groups (based on AP more than anything) when it comes to rolling save/allocations, not when you roll to hit and wound. Officially the latter two are done simultaneously with any other weapons in the unit. Of course, for those who only have one colour dice etc would follow that method, rolling each separately, but it's not an official ruling.

Yeah, this is probably because I only have one color of dice. Still, rolling to-hits separately just builds to rolling to-wounds separately, which is necessary to establish your various dice pools. It's not so much that you need to perform the two steps one after the other, but more that you need to keep the sets of dice separate.

 

True, and most people do have one colour of dice, but not all. I have at least three and so will do those rolls together best I can. But as it's phrased there that can appear against the rules. Of course it isn't, but a newcomer to the game wouldn't know that. Just my preference there though.

[Morollan]

As I understand it, shooting works as follows...

 

1) Measure distance.

2) Declare target.

3) Determine which models in the target unit are in cover.

4) Declare whether you are focus-firing, and if so, on which Cover Save value.

5) Roll to-hit with first weapon type (distinguished by different Str, AP, and/or special rules).

6) Roll to-hit with second weapon type, etc. until all shots are fired.

7) Determine majority Toughness of target unit (by model). Use the highest in case of ties.

8) Roll to-wound with first weapon type. These wounds make up the first Wound Pool.

9) Roll to-wound with second weapon type (making the second Wound Pool), etc. until all to-wounds are rolled.

10) The target unit chooses whether to Go To Ground.

 

Here's where it gets slightly tricky.

 

If the target unit's models all have the same saving throw (including armour, invuln, and cover saves (only count those in the appropriate level of cover, if focused-fired)):

11.a) The target unit rolls saves against all the wounds from the first Wound Pool.

12.a) Allocate the first unsaved wound to the target model closest to the shooting unit. Only count models in line of sight from the shooting unit, within the weapons' maximum distance, and in the appropriate level of cover (if focus-fired).

13.a) If that model was a Character, make a Look Out, Sir roll, if you want to, nominating one model in the unit within 6" of the character before rolling.

14.a) If the Look Out, Sir is passed, the unsaved wound is allocated to the nominated model. Reduce that model's Wounds by 1. If this lowers its Wounds to 0, remove it as a casualty.

15.a) If the Look Out, Sir was failed or not attempted (including if the closest model was not a character), reduce the closest model's Wounds by 1. If this lowers its Wounds to 0, remove it as a casualty.

16.a) Repeat steps 12.a-15.a for every unsaved wound in the first Wound Pool.

17.a) Repeat steps 11.a-16.a for every wound in the second Wound Pool, etc. until all wounds have been resolved, or there are no models left in the target unit (at least, none that are in line of sight from the shooting unit, in range of the shooting attacks, and in the appropriate level of cover if focus-fired).

 

If the target unit's models do not all have the same saving throw (even if only 1 model is different!):

11.b} Allocate the first wound from the first Wound Pool to the target model closest to the shooting unit. Only count models in line of sight from the shooting unit, within the weapons' maximum distance, and in the appropriate level of cover (if focus-fired).

12.b} If that model was a Character, make a Look Out, Sir roll, if you want to, nominating one model in the unit within 6" of the character before rolling.

13.b} If the Look Out, Sir is passed, the wound is allocated to the nominated model. That model takes a save. If it fails the save, reduce its Wounds by 1. If this lowers its Wounds to 0, remove it as a casualty.

14.b} If the Look Out, Sir was failed or not attempted (including if the closest model was not a character), the closest model takes a save. If it fails, reduce the its Wounds by 1. If this lowers its Wounds to 0, remove it as a casualty.

15.b} Repeat steps 11.b-14.b for every wound in the first Wound Pool.

16.b} Repeat steps 11.b-15.b for every wound in the second Wound Pool, etc. until all wounds have been resolved, or there are no models left in the target unit (at least, none that are in line of sight from the shooting unit, in range of the shooting attacks, and in the appropriate level of cover if focus-fired).

17.b} (placeholder for numbering purposes)

 

18) Repeat steps 1-17 for each unit you want to shoot with this turn.

19) Any enemy units that took at least 25% casualties during the Shooting Phase make Morale Checks (including those that went to ground or were pinned), and fall back if they fail.

 

Give me a little bit to figure out CC, but I think it's pretty similar. Can anyone double-check me on the above? I'm pretty sure it's correct, but I obviously could've missed something.

 

Well, I for one a glad that GW produced such a simple and intuitive game process. ^_^

[StrayCatt]

I think some of the issue people are having is that it is a major shift in the method of assigning/allocating wounds when compared to v5. As I have been away from the rules since v3, I actually had no issue understanding that this is the way allocation works. I only had to read and understand the new rules, whereas others have to un-learn previous rules before being able to tackle the new.

[facmanpob]

Some things are simple when you do them, and very complicated to write down.......

 

....think about all of the things you do automatically when you get into a car and drive away. You are thinking about engines, pedals, mirrors, other traffic, sorting out the radio, do I need my lights on, is the heater/aircon needed, will the kids be quiet (:lol:).....now imagine writing that down.....yet in practice you just get in and drive away.

 

Why?

 

Practice makes perfect!

 

I think the new wound allocation rules will be relatively simple to use, once we've all had time to practice :lol:

[Zynk Kaladin]

This is a great idea. I've been trying to compile a summary/order of operations when it comes to movement/shooting/close combat. I always got things wrong in 5th and I would like to get 6th under my belt as best as possible.

 

Aidoneus, I may have to steal your order of operations for future use in the field.

[Aidoneus]

Aidoneus, I may have to steal your order of operations for future use in the field.

That was the idea. ;) If it helps you, go for it! I'm happy to have been of assistance.

[Aidoneus]

I updated the explanations above, with 4 additions:

 

1) I included DarkGuard's suggestion on rolling to-hits together, and merely keeping track of wound Groups

2) I realized I had conflated the Wound Pool and wound Groups. I fixed it.

3) I clarified that different saves means any saves, even if each models "best" save is the same (RAW, that's what it says)

4) I was informed that the shooting player decides which Group to resolve first, so I put that in (fairly important).

 

Everything else is the same.

[Zzo]

Very nice guide Aidoneus. :D Although if I may suggest something, you might want to add/explain precision shots/attacks from characters to your steps.