BA and Challenge Tactics

[Morticon]

Hey guys, in my first few games it has already become apparent that challenges is a dynamic that will completely alter the game dynamic and course of victory for better or for worse.

 

 

Can anyone suggest some tenants, "laws", constants or general guidelines for what challenges to issue when?

 

Some questions to consider:

 

 

1. When should you NOT issue/accept a challenge

2. Who should you accept a challenge with?

3. What weapons should your Sarges use?

4. If you have a sarge and an IC, what weapon combo should they run to maximise challenge benefits.

5. Would a "Thunder and Lightning" captain be worth the points always?

6. How does armour (yours and the enemy's effect who challenges?)

 

 

Im gonna open this to the floor!

[Drachnon]

Hmm I think the first rule should be to always refuse challenges from eternal warrior characters with a hammer or fist (most ID weapons actually). Especially if it has a 2+ save.

 

EDIT:

There are some exceptions but I think as a general rule this works fine

[Jolemai]

Many people seem to be inclined to take a naked Sergeant at the moment and I can't quite understand why. Surely he should be equipped with at least a Combat/Storm Shield (where possible) and/or at least a Power Sword?

 

This way he leads from the front and it able to accept charges with the hope of tying up an enemy Character (to stop it munching his squad or an Independent Character) and with the Sword there is a chance he will dispatch the enemy beforehand (at the moment, I'm not sure on what is the best all-rounder with regards to a Power Weapon).

[Emperors Immortals]

Good question Mort, i too have noticed the massive game change in my 2 battles o far.

 

The first invloved my Tacs bogging down an eldar avenger squad with some exarch-or-something - i sacrificed my powersword sarge in a challenge and then was able to out last the combat over 3 rounds basically because teh sacrifice meant my Rec could stun him and let teh rest cut him down.

 

Id think that armour and IC would heavily influence decisions, basically depending on that all important 2+ save and AP2 weapon ie termy IC (like a priest) can pretty much win most challenges against low and mid level upgrade characters but would have to watch for specialist weapons (prob plasma actually) while a tooled corbulo would do very well against anything less then ID due to a re-roll save and high initaitive.

 

So, just quickly as th ekids are screaming

 

1.when trying to just bog a unit but preventing a wipeout on either side

2.anything worth the points sacrifice

3.i seriously thin a shield for mid field advance units, and a claw for mid field support, i dont do anythign else with my sarges really

4.TH/SS (not both) on sarge, TH claws on IC

5.No, its too expensive to run all the time, but very good in certain circumstance

6.Anythign 3+ and higher needs to be carful in order to survive or just plain fast if its okay they can die.

 

Again, this is just a fast post but id like to expand in teh future ;)

[Brother_Angelus]

I've just modelled up a RAS Sgt with a PF and SS to give it a try. Most people will be hesitant to lose a high point HQ to possible instant death, so even if he doesn't draw them into a duel, atleast they'll be out of the fight.

 

Challenges are really going to be case by case, and its as much about the psychology of the risk and cock-blocking powerful IC's as it is about cinematics.

[Xenith]

Hmm I think the first rule should be to always refuse challenges from eternal warrior characters with a hammer or fist (most ID weapons actually). Especially if it has a 2+ save.

 

Or take the challenge on a sergeant to make sure you win via comabt res.

 

Mephiston: Always challenge. Your opponent accepts, the rest of his unit cannot hurt you and you likely win combat. Your opponent declines, that's one less model that can attack you.

 

Likewise, if your IC's find themselves alone, challenge.

[appiah4]

3. What weapons should your Sarges use?

 

I'll answer this.

 

Any T4 unit without an invulnerable save of some kind should never take I1 weapons. They will either get gibbed in challenges or fail to contribute to melee; either is unfortunatel. With that out of the way, there are two things to consider.

 

First, can your Sergeant access Invulnerable Saves? These are available in the form of Combat Shields and Storm Sheilds.

Second, are these options worthwhile?

 

For Tacticals, and like squads who have no access to these wargears, the solution is simple. Use these guidelines:

a) Do you want a Combi- Weapon? If yes, go to c). If not, go to :P

:D If you have 20 pts, get Melta Bomb & Power Sword. If you have 15 pts get Power Sword. If you have less, get Melta Bomb.

c) If you have 20 pts, get Combi-Plasma & Lightning Claw (if available). If you have less or can not get a Combi-Plasma and Meltabomb.

 

For units with access to Invulnerable Saves (i.e. Assault Squads) the choice is less simple, but here are my guidelines:

- First 5 points go to Meltabombs (unless you have a Meltagun in your army, in which case you buy the Meltabombs last)

- Next 15 points to to a Power Sword

- If you have points to spare, you either a) take a Combat Shield, or :P take a Storm Shield and change the Power Sword to a Lightning Claw.

 

This is my guideline. I build the army I want, then spread the spare points around like this, prioritizing Assault units, followed by all rounders. Units that aren't specialized for shooting (i.e. Devs and Sternguard) get nothing.

[DominicJ]

In my view

your sarge isnt going to survive, let alone win any challenge (possible exception of th\ss termie)

theres no point beefing him

 

challenges serve two purposes

 

protecting your hq (he challenges to avoid the enemy troops)

 

protecting your troops (sarge challenges so he dies 9 times)

 

combat is won by killing gretchin not wounding daemon lords.

[Kierdale]

That reminds me...

Bear in mind that I haven't bought 6th Ed. yet but an interesting point someone brought up in another forum was:

If you have a sergeant leading a unit and a close-combat monster of a IC I that unit too, then have the sergeant accept challenges from the enemy, leaving your IC to chew through the rest of the enemy unit and win on resolution.

 

A viable tactic for the BA?

[wabbitrage]

I think its excatly right its a case by case thing. I think the key is going to be keeping as many options/possiblities open as you can. If you lots of IC with PWs then i think you should opt for fists on your sergeants. If your enemy has a 2+ IC with an unwiely weapon hes certainly not going to wish to come up against your sergeant. However if you come up against a character who is 3+ with I4 you can challenge with an IC packing PW or claw(s)

[Chaplain Admetus]

It really depends. Apart from some very brief dabbling with Dante right at the tail end of 5th, I've never once fielded a combat monster character. I prefer the force-multiplier buffs that librarians and sanguinary priests can spread around...the disadvantage being that if an opponent was canny enough to take down my librarian and priests then without my linchpins, the force falls apart.

 

So, if anyone's like me and runs their forces in that way, here are my tips:

1) avoid any unit with a hard as nails character. We're a highly mobile army, and I've always found that the best way to deal with a tooled up combat monster is to ignore it where possible. Naturally this won't always be feasible, but its worth trying

 

2) Powerfists and thunder hammers are the order of the day. Chances are any character that's going to give your HQ a headache is because it can ID you, most likely with an I1 weapon. Sergeants can strike at the same time, and whilst they're likely to die, you've got a reasonable shot of taking him down with you.

 

3) Instant death, high toughness/EW characters (off the top of my head, Ghaz, Calgar, Mephy, Lysander) - avoid like the plague. The only way I can see of taking these guys down is to smack them with a unit of TH/SS terminators and hope to get rid of them that way. That, or lots of long-range AP2 guns.

 

4) A modification of Kierdale's plan. Limit their effectiveness by feeding the big nasty a sergeant (poor sarge, and here I thought it was just Devastator sergeants getting the short end of the stick),win combat by beating up on the little guys, and try and break them and run them down. All the tooled up gear in the world won't save you from being chased down. The bonus is you can guarantee keeping them out of combat by issuing the challenge yourself.

[SevenExxes]

1. When should you NOT issue/accept a challenge

When the opponent is a 2+ armour save, attacks at initiative with an AP3 weapon and their initiative is higher than your char who only has a 3+ save and nothing more.

 

2. Who should you accept a challenge with?

Lemartes, Gabriel Seth, Lord Commander Dante (Love this guy!)

 

3. What weapons should your Sarges use?

Preferably a power weapon that strikes at initiative

 

4. If you have a sarge and an IC, what weapon combo should they run to maximise challenge benefits.

Depending on the IC's armour save: If it's a 2+/4+ I might even go a power axe for the AP2 nastiness. A sarge would be better off with a power sword as stated above.

 

5. Would a "Thunder and Lightning" captain be worth the points always?

Is this a captain that rocks a hammer and shield? I say yes, but not always.

 

6. How does armour (yours and the enemy's effect who challenges?)

A +2 enemy armoured duelist with an instant death weapon are the most deadly. However, most instant death weapons are I1 and so therefore a character with alot of attacks (Lemartes for example) would be a good chance of smashing them to dust before they got to attack with I1. Why Lemartes? 5 attacks, reroll to hit and to wound, wound on 2's thanks to his maul.

 

Question: Do you still get the charge bonus if someone challenges you after you assault?

[DominicJ]

Thunder and lightning is hammer and claw.

[JMac]

1. When should you NOT issue/accept a challenge

When the opponent is a 2+ armour save, attacks at initiative with an AP3 weapon and their initiative is higher than your char who only has a 3+ save and nothing more.

 

2. Who should you accept a challenge with?

Lemartes, Gabriel Seth, Lord Commander Dante (Love this guy!)

 

3. What weapons should your Sarges use?

Preferably a power weapon that strikes at initiative

 

4. If you have a sarge and an IC, what weapon combo should they run to maximise challenge benefits.

Depending on the IC's armour save: If it's a 2+/4+ I might even go a power axe for the AP2 nastiness. A sarge would be better off with a power sword as stated above.

 

5. Would a "Thunder and Lightning" captain be worth the points always?

Is this a captain that rocks a hammer and shield? I say yes, but not always.

 

6. How does armour (yours and the enemy's effect who challenges?)

A +2 enemy armoured duelist with an instant death weapon are the most deadly. However, most instant death weapons are I1 and so therefore a character with alot of attacks (Lemartes for example) would be a good chance of smashing them to dust before they got to attack with I1. Why Lemartes? 5 attacks, reroll to hit and to wound, wound on 2's thanks to his maul.

 

Question: Do you still get the charge bonus if someone challenges you after you assault?

 

Fairly thorough and thought out I'd say.

 

If it was possible, I wouldn't even have a sgt in my army. Grey Hunters just got better because they can do this, and they can still take a sword or fist and then MotW. Unfortunately, Blood Angels cannot do this. Which leaves us with this dilemma. I am inclined to take a fist a storm shield on every sgt. While this is expensive, it solves our issue at hand. In 5th ed, it was now different (other than the expense), we would equip our sgts to be able to deal with anything. 25 pts a sgt is fairly steep though, but a valued expense. Although, assault marines aren't auto include anymore. So tacticals and scouts don't have this luxury. Then again, they should only be seeing assault out of desperation.

 

I think in 6th ed, I will be shifting away from the assault element altogether and focus more on firepower through devs and bikes. Flyers will be prevalent I assume, and you can't assault them! Beyond that, any assaults in Blood Angels should be left to Death Company and SG IMHO.

[SevenExxes]

Thunder and lightning is hammer and claw.

 

Really? How does that work?

[DominicJ]

take a thunderhammer and a lightning claw....

[mlund]

There are only two questions that matter:

 

1.) Are you going to survive the challenge?

2.) What have you got to lose?

 

They are loaded questions, though. The less wounds and saves you get on a character the less likely he is to survive a challenge. 1W characters in Power Armor are not survivable. They only serve two functions: absorb a torrent of character hits at minimal cost, or get in attacks with a Power Weapon against another 3+ Armor model. A sergeant should have either no kit or a power weapon. Forget about shields, fists, and hammers.

 

The opposite end of the scale are Independent Characters. Once you start sporting a 4+ invulnerable save and multiple wounds you can consider options for taking out harder targets, especially with Feel No Pain. Now you're staring down Terminator Sergeants up through other Independent Characters. You have to choose whether you want to spec in only being a MEQ killer or if you want to have a TEQ killer I1 weapon. Thunder and Lightning is a nice option because you can have our cake and eat it too. Giving our Reclusiarch a Power Fist to compliment his Crozius is something similar, though less MEQ-hunting - which is why I like to pair him with a Power Sword Sergeant.

 

- Marty Lund

[JamesI]

I think Astorath is going to be really good for challenges, at least against characters in 3+ armor. Same with Dante.

 

Tycho will probably be good for challenges as well since he ignores all armor.

 

In my first game of 6th, I only issued 1 challenge I think, with a Librarian who wanted to force weapon an ork warboss. Bad luck for me I rolled awful to wound and got splattered.

 

 

Sergeants is another story. I generally want to use my sergeants to block challenges against characters I don't want in them. Some 2+ armor save character who hits with strength 8+ I don't want in a challenge with Dante. So I feed them the sergeant instead. As a test I will be running 1 RAS sergeant with lightning claw (or power sword), the other with Powerfist (or thunder hammer) /Storm Shield just to see what works better. So far its hard to say with too little experience.

 

Its going to be annoying having to rebuild all my powerfist sergeants this edition...

[DominicJ]

Why rebuild them?

Powerfists still work, they can pop tanks, slaughter MEQs and with luck, can ID the odd HQ.

 

At the end of the day, a Sarge with a powerfist is just as likely to strike as a sarge with a sword, either my I5 HQ kills him, or he hits back, either at I4 or I1.

And if your going to hit back, you might as well do it good and proper.

[Morticon]

Why rebuild them?

Powerfists still work, they can pop tanks, slaughter MEQs and with luck, can ID the odd HQ.

 

At the end of the day, a Sarge with a powerfist is just as likely to strike as a sarge with a sword, either my I5 HQ kills him, or he hits back, either at I4 or I1.

And if your going to hit back, you might as well do it good and proper.

 

That is IF you're* going to hit back . However I think its more for sarge on sarge violence!

[darth_giles]

Many people seem to be inclined to take a naked Sergeant at the moment and I can't quite understand why. Surely he should be equipped with at least a Combat/Storm Shield (where possible) and/or at least a Power Sword?

 

This way he leads from the front and it able to accept charges with the hope of tying up an enemy Character (to stop it munching his squad or an Independent Character) and with the Sword there is a chance he will dispatch the enemy beforehand (at the moment, I'm not sure on what is the best all-rounder with regards to a Power Weapon).

The only "naked sarge" squads I'd consider are ones like Devastators who aren't supposed to be that close to the line anyway; if they see something big they should be far enough away to get a round or two of shooting off at it, or get into a Rhino/Razorback and floor it. For stuff like Tac or RAS sergeants, I'd go with a minimum of a Power Sword. Maybe not a Storm Shield unless I end up sitting on a ton of points, but definitely the power sword.

[Plague Angel]

Challenges between two characters in 2+ armor without AP2 weapons will last forever. This is what I've learned in the one game of 6th I've played so far.

[SnuffyN]

In the Appendix our Sergeant is not Characters so they may well not be used in the Challenge?

or am I wrong?

[Pathstrider]

In the Appendix our Sergeant is not Characters so they may well not be used in the Challenge?

or am I wrong?

I think the idea is that where the name is the same as something in codex:space marines you use that appendix value. Otherwise our rhinos etc don't have hull points...

[Deschenus Maximus]

1. When should you NOT issue/accept a challenge

 

Its pretty simple:

 

1) if your opponent has a character that can punk you reliably before or at the same time as you swing, you shouldn't challenge. Example: power fist sergeant shouldn't challenge/accept challenge if opponent has a power sword sergeant.

2) You shouldn't challenge/accept challenges if it will save an enemy IC from getting punked. Example: Terminator Sergeant with power sword vs say Dante.

 

You should challenge/accept challenges if:

1) You can reliably kill the enemy character before he kills you. Example: power sword sergeant vs power fist sergeant.

2) It will lessen the damage you squad takes. Example: naked sergeant vs captain with power sword.

 

2. Who should you accept a challenge with?

 

Sergeants. ICs should be punking troopers.

 

3. What weapons should your Sarges use?

 

Either a) nothing, :lol: just a storm shield, c) power fist and storm shield or d) twin plasma pistols.

 

A single power weapon does nothing against 2+ saves, and a fist without a shield will get nuked before he swings.

 

4. If you have a sarge and an IC, what weapon combo should they run to maximise challenge benefits.

 

The IC should have a power sword and the sergeant fist and shield. The sergeant issues/answers the challenges while the IC kick regular trooper ass.

 

5. Would a "Thunder and Lightning" captain be worth the points always?

 

No. Not even close. For 35 more pts you can get 5 claw assault termies. Think about that for a second.

 

6. How does armour (yours and the enemy's effect who challenges?)

 

If all you have is a Ap3 weapon, no point challenging/accepting challenges from a 2+ char.