Equipping Dark Angel Veterans

[Magnus Thane]

Am mixing the SM Dark Angel veterans (2 boxes) with the MKI and MKII veteran boxes of the regul SM line.

I'm going to make 2 cc veteran squads the main hammer of my force because i really want to use only a very limited amount of termies or the likes, if any.

Question is these models come with plasma pistols, given the 'gets hot' risk... isn't that too big a danger for such a big model?

And should I put an assault weapon into the team or just go for power weapons, chainswords and lightning claws galore with the occassional plasma pistol added in?

[Zepyrous]

I recommend an assault weapon in your Veteran squads. One attack less in close combat vs. a good chance to thin out the lines (Flamer) or cracking open a transport (Melter) before is often really helpful ;)

With the new rules it might be also useful to give one or two guys a storm-shield and put ´em in front to protect the rest of the Vets.

Plasmapistols are still to pricy in my opinion, not to mention the risk for its bearer...

[Magnus Thane]

Hmm in that case I may proxy the metal plasma pistols as regular pistols.

Plasmapistols are pretty ;) and if ye go for vets ye gotta go with some 'bling bling' in my opinion.

So a flamer or a melta? Hmmm my most regular foe(s) will be Necrons and power armor...

 

Also the command squad can have at most only 5 guys?

[Alys Dwr]

Hmm in that case I may proxy the metal plasma pistols as regular pistols.

Plasmapistols are pretty ;) and if ye go for vets ye gotta go with some 'bling bling' in my opinion.

So a flamer or a melta? Hmmm my most regular foe(s) will be Necrons and power armor...

 

Also the command squad can have at most only 5 guys?

Yep, command squad is a max of 5 but FNP from apothacary makes them as survivable as a larger unit.

 

I'd go with the flamer, eve against necrons and power armour. The auto hit forces dice rolls which inevitably leads to dead enemies, and the extra snap fire shots they grant is a nice bonus.

 

Al

[Magnus Thane]

Thanks for the advice guys got some more vets ordered i'll give 2 of those flamethrower so each squad will have one.

[Master Toddius]

Magnus, look at Azrael's special rules and then combine him with a flexible vet squad. (hint hint) ;)

[shortysl]

Am mixing the SM Dark Angel veterans (2 boxes) with the MKI and MKII veteran boxes of the regul SM line.

I'm going to make 2 cc veteran squads the main hammer of my force because i really want to use only a very limited amount of termies or the likes, if any.

Question is these models come with plasma pistols, given the 'gets hot' risk... isn't that too big a danger for such a big model?

And should I put an assault weapon into the team or just go for power weapons, chainswords and lightning claws galore with the occassional plasma pistol added in?

 

Might I also humbly suggest the odd Power Fist/Thunder Hammer in your squads to deal with the inevitable Artificer Armour/Terminator armoured units you're going to encounter? Don't put them on the Sergeants as challenges will see them dead unless you also give them a Storm Shield. Lightning Claws and Power Swords are all AP3 now so instead of the Power Fist you could go for the Power Axe. I would always recommend paying extra for the Fist though because it's the only thing you've got to ignore Feel No Pain in Melee.

 

Also, be careful using Flamers; the Template hits ANY model under it (including friends) which means you have to place him near the front of your squad. Placing him at the front of your squad however, means he is the first to be shot if you're not careful.

[Magnus Thane]

Well I think each squad is going to end up with 1 fist. Or at least one of the 2. As the metal vets come with a power fist fellow.

 

Hmmm I look forward to the new starter set. I'm eager to give the new rules a read.

 

Ebay'd 2 Black Reach squads of plastic Marines and the HQ. Those squads came with a flamer and a lasgun. I presume those are less than optimal setups?

[Ajax Tlamunus]

As company veterans are allowed "power weapons," I'd think a Power Axe and pistol would be the best choice of anti-terminator duelist: Three attacks, four on the charge, and all with that wonderful AP2. Make it a plasma pistol and take a crack at `em on the way in too.

[Ronin_eX]

Yeah, I'm glad I modelled at least a few axe-wielders in my veterans. They'll come in handy as cheap anti-heavies now.

[Ajax Tlamunus]

I've never seen any logic in putting a Thunderhammer on a Company Veteran, for those points, you might as well be fielding Deathwing. The only logical way to field Company Veterans, to my mind, is to arm them in a manner that cannot be duplicated elsewhere....

[Master Toddius]

Based on the 6th ed rules heres how I'm going to outfit my 10 man vet squad when fully focused on CC:

 

Vet 1: Storm Shield, Chainsword, BP. (Absorb heavy weapons and AP2-3 PW's)

Vet 2: Storm Shield, Chainsword, BP. ^^

Vet 3: Flamer, BP.

Vet 4: Chainsword, BP.

Vet 5: Chainsword, BP

Vet 6: Chainsword, BP

Vet 7: Twin LC, BP. (mostly because he looks awesome)

Vet 8: Pwr Axe, BP. (+1 strength AP2 I1 - but 10 points less than a fist and grants +1 attack w/BP)

Vet 9: Pwr Axe, BP. ^^

Vet 10: Pwr Fist or TH, BP. (depending on which model I feel like taking)

**Loaded in LRC or Storm Eagle.

 

Pretty self explanatory. The group piles out - charges and rips everything to shreds. Add a I Chap for litanies of hate, or whatever IC you feel like. They also can be combat split to augment tactical squads holding objectives. Nothing like an added CC squad to help out with a counter attack. Leave the Storm Shields out front for wound allocation.

 

For a more flexible group to take advantage of the greater effectiveness of rapid fire weapons + still allowing for a fair counter attack unit is still something I'm thinking about. I need to play a few more games to really get a feel for what would be most effective. Combi Plasma guns seem ridiculously awesome now. 2 shots at full range if you hold during the movement phase... Even on the move a cheap heavy bolter seems interesting now. Not sure the balance of firepower to CC weapons just yet.

 

And Azrael will give a 4++ for all your vets if you attach him to a squad. Might be time to bring him out this edition with his Sacred Combi Plasma, St6 Power Sword, and artificer armor - which is damn good now.

[Magnus Thane]

I've never seen any logic in putting a Thunderhammer on a Company Veteran, for those points, you might as well be fielding Deathwing. The only logical way to field Company Veterans, to my mind, is to arm them in a manner that cannot be duplicated elsewhere....

 

Well there are 2 all important reasons to maybe do it:

 

- fluff reasons

- for fun... which is luckily the basis of playing this game.

 

It doesn't have to be 100 percent performance/min maxed all the time... luckily! :lol:

[Ajax Tlamunus]

I'm all for fun and doing things just cause the look cool, but a TH/SS Company Veteran is sixty points!? By the Throne, that's an unreasonable price even if its the fluffiest thing since a chinchilla in a goose-down pillow.

[Master Toddius]

Look at the balance that a squad of 10 vets with a fist or thunderhammer + other gear when it comes to over all attacks and survivablity versus a squad of deathwing. You'll find that for 100more points you get MANY more attacks and ablative wounds per point value. Its a special niche that the Vet Squads fill nicely.

[Master Toddius]

Here, lets run thru some scenarios and I welcome others to do this as well:

 

10x C o m p a n y V e t e r a n s

Base Cost + Gear = 315pts

Vet 1: Storm Shield/CS/BP.

Vet 2: Storm Shield/CS/BP.

Vet 3: CS/BP.

Vet 4: CS/BP.

Vet 5: CS/BP.

Vet 6: Combi-Melta/BP.

Vet 7: Plasma Gun/BP.

Vet 8: Pwr Axe/BP.

Vet 9: Pwr Sword/BP.

Vet 10: ThunderHammer/BP.

 

5x D e a t h w i n g

Base Cost + Gear = 240pts

DWT 1: Pwr Sword (or Axe)/Storm Bolter.

DWT 2: ThunderHammer/StormShield/Cyclone Missile Launcher.

DWT 3: ThunderHammer/StormShield.

DWT 4: ThunderHammer/StormShield.

DWT 5: ChainFist/Storm Bolter.

 

Co. Vets |geared for CC|

 

10 wounds. 2 @ 3++ and 8 @ 3+.

 

Firepower: 8 BP 12 inch range + [1 shot Melta] Bolter + Plasma Gun Rapid Fire w/24inch range = 10 to 12 shots short range or 2-4 shots mid.

 

On the Charge CC: 26x CS + 4x Pwr Axe + 4 Pwr Sword + 3 TH = 37 attacks.

30 attacks @ I4 [26 @ AP - + 4 @ AP 3] and 7 attacks @ I1 [7 @ AP2].

 

Deathwing

 

5 wounds. 5 @ 2+ 5++. 3 of those @ 3++.

 

Firepower: 4 Storm Bolter + 2 krak or frag = 6 shots mid or 2 shots long.

 

On the Charge CC: 3x Pwr Sword + 3 CF + 9 TH = 15 attacks.

3 attacks @ I4 [3 @ AP3] and 12 attacks @ I1 [12 @ AP2].

 

Other factors to consider:

Company Vets can sweep advance. They have ATSKNF (which by the way is godly in this edition). They can combat squad which can mean a greater battlefield control. Can have a rhino or razorback or drop pod making them very interesting in deployment because it can be done cost effectively. Obviously can use a LR variant or Storm Eagle as well. Very flexible firepower and CC options. 75 more points gives the squad 5 more wounds than a DW squad. Can charge into cover without penalties due to frag nades. Can attack armor with krak nades, if given melta bombs this can increase to double pen. Can snap fire 12 shots in above setup.

 

Deathwing can teleport in and has the option of utilizing a homer from our RW if availible. Can ride in LR or Storm Eagle. Cannot sweep advance. Are fearless which can help and hurt you in this, and the last, edition. Can count as a troop choice if taken with (crappy IMO) Belial + can have 1 squad w/apothecary and standard. Can attack armor with double pen capability. Flexible firepower and CC options. Can snap fire 6 shots.

 

75 point difference between those 2 setups. And I took the CC concentrated setup. What can you come up with?

[Darmor]

Other factors to consider:

Company Vets can sweep advance. They have ATSKNF (which by the way is godly in this edition). They can combat squad which can mean a greater battlefield control. Can have a rhino or razorback or drop pod making them very interesting in deployment because it can be done cost effectively. Obviously can use a LR variant or Storm Eagle as well. Very flexible firepower and CC options. 75 more points gives the squad 5 more wounds than a DW squad. Can charge into cover without penalties due to frag nades. Can attack armor with krak nades, if given melta bombs this can increase to double pen. Can snap fire 12 shots in above setup.

And are capable of quick building cleansing due to grenades/flamer weapons in loadout. This can be very situational thought, but I think with addition of Fortification slot to FOC we need to think about dealing with garrisoned buildings, bastions and fortresses.

At least in our club I'm pretty sure that I'll see 3-4 bunkers full of guardsmen on the table soon enough.

[shortysl]

As company veterans are allowed "power weapons," I'd think a Power Axe and pistol would be the best choice of anti-terminator duelist: Three attacks, four on the charge, and all with that wonderful AP2. Make it a plasma pistol and take a crack at `em on the way in too.

 

Yes the Power Axe is always going to be an option for anti-2+ save fights, but the Power Fist, for just 10 points more, will ignore almost any Feel No Pain units you come across and will Instant Death most characters you might meet. It also provides greater options against any armour you might meet. For me, that more than makes up for the 10 point difference and is the reason I'll always recommend the Power Fist over the Power Axe.

[Ronin_eX]

What I've seen tends to indicate that when FNP or multi-wound aren't a factor the axe performs better over time. If the other two are a factor then the fist tends to perform better. Against meganobz you want the fist but against straight up terminators the axe is probably the better option because it can spread the love more (more attacks are always helpful). So whether the 10 points is worth it is situational. For the cost of equipping two models with fists I can equip three with axes. The upsides and downsides of each are hardly cut and dry.

[Ajax Tlamunus]

The upsides and downsides of any number of things -- from special melee weapons, special or heavy ranged attacks, even what turrets I take on my Guard tanks -- are hardly cut and dry... and I love that about this edition. I haven't had to be so flexible in my list design since we houseruled special characters out of our Second Edition games.

[Cypher 102]

Also, be careful using Flamers; the Template hits ANY model under it (including friends) which means you have to place him near the front of your squad. Placing him at the front of your squad however, means he is the first to be shot if you're not careful.

You can't place flamer templates over friendly models. If you can't place the template without placing it over a friendly model then you can't fire the weapon.

 

Are fearless which can help and hurt you in this, and the last, edition.

The only downsides I've seen to fearless in 6th are that you can't go to ground and you can't willingly run from an enemy. The no retreat rules are gone. As far as I can see fearless is going to be better than and they shall know no fear in this edition.

[shortysl]

Also, be careful using Flamers; the Template hits ANY model under it (including friends) which means you have to place him near the front of your squad. Placing him at the front of your squad however, means he is the first to be shot if you're not careful.

You can't place flamer templates over friendly models. If you can't place the template without placing it over a friendly model then you can't fire the weapon.

 

So the point is still valid then isn't it? Either way, the Flamer operator would have to go near the front of the unit in order to be useful, which puts him in significant danger. Posting for the sake of posting perhaps?

[Magnus Thane]

Let's not fight. Thanks for all the feedback so far guys, from all of you. You're all most knowledgeable about these things.

 

Despite needing to give my Grey Knights more time on the table I cannot help but desire a new project as the last year I did learn a few new things painting wise. And I think I'll enjoy handling the Dark Angels.

 

I've assembled my first band of veterans and i've been scouring ebay for some extra stuff for my future force.

Black Reach minis, a regular dread, some termies. Hopefully I'll win the bids.

 

Regardless I ordered more vets of all sorts and a Company Master. Because although i'm sure to occassionally add some Deathwing Termies or Ravenwing bikers, the Greenwing is the main path i'll take.

 

Now just hoping footslogging will be doable ;)

 

 

Given some of the stuff i read in other threads, I may actually use Belial (Deathwing fellow right?) and a squad or 2 of Termies to add extra 'Troop Units' on the table together with my basic Marine squads and oddly enough have the veterans as the big priced 'hammer' units?

[Cypher 102]

Also, be careful using Flamers; the Template hits ANY model under it (including friends) which means you have to place him near the front of your squad. Placing him at the front of your squad however, means he is the first to be shot if you're not careful.

You can't place flamer templates over friendly models. If you can't place the template without placing it over a friendly model then you can't fire the weapon.

 

So the point is still valid then isn't it? Either way, the Flamer operator would have to go near the front of the unit in order to be useful, which puts him in significant danger. Posting for the sake of posting perhaps?

 

Yes, your point is still valid. However, we wouldn't want anyone starting to think they could flame their own troops when the rules say they cannot.

[Haranin]

Company vets cry out fot magnetic weapons. That way if you decide a certain setup sucks, you can swap out.

 

Mass framers might rock against orks. Against tau you might want the melta