Challenges,overkill?

[Cazino]

What are your thoughts on this?

 

Let's say SM tactical squad is charged by a HQ. HQ challenges the sergeant. The sergeant can deal the HQ 3 wounds max. Le'ts say the HQ have 6 attacks. Would the other 5 attacks, after killing the SGT go to the squad? The rules on p-64 are not clear on this, as they say that the outsiders cannot strike blows to the two, but not the other way around.

[Legatus]

Unfortunately the rule does not properly describe this, but I would assume that a model fighting in a challenge would focus all of his attacks on his opponent.

[StrayCatt]

The implication of the rules, even if not stated explicitly, is that the challenge is effectively a separate combat. Outside models cannot attack/wound the models involved in the challenge, so it should be safe to assume the challengers cannot attack/wound models outside of the challenge.

 

The only caveat to this is the Assault Result phase (pg 65 BRB):

"Unsaved Wounds caused in a challenge count towards the assault result, alongside any unsaved Wounds caused by the rest of the character's units."

 

So while excess wounds will not cause further casualties directly, they can cause a landslide in the Assault Result phase.

 

i.e. Standard tac squad vs Drago ... Tac Sgt causes zero wounds ... Drago causes 4 unsaved wounds ... Tac Sgt is removed after 1 unsaved, but 4 wounds are used for the Assault Result phase ...

[Acebaur]

The implication of the rules, even if not stated explicitly, is that the challenge is effectively a separate combat. Outside models cannot attack/wound the models involved in the challenge, so it should be safe to assume the challengers cannot attack/wound models outside of the challenge.

 

The only caveat to this is the Assault Result phase (pg 65 BRB):

"Unsaved Wounds caused in a challenge count towards the assault result, alongside any unsaved Wounds caused by the rest of the character's units."

 

So while excess wounds will not cause further casualties directly, they can cause a landslide in the Assault Result phase.

 

i.e. Standard tac squad vs Drago ... Tac Sgt causes zero wounds ... Drago causes 4 unsaved wounds ... Tac Sgt is removed after 1 unsaved, but 4 wounds are used for the Assault Result phase ...

 

 

Yeah, but it also says somewhere that wounds in excess of a models W characteristic don't count(sorry I don't have a page number)

[greatcrusade08]

its not 100% specific, but the rules do indicate to me that when fighting a challenge all attacks go against the opponent in the challenge.

look out sire cannot be used, and the model are considered to only be in B2B with each other

 

outside forces

only the challenger and chellengee can trike blows against each other

sure it doesnt explicitly specify that the characters can attack the outside forces, but common sense says no (and the rules dont say they can)

 

to answer the question:

all thats said is that

unsaved wounds caused in a challenge count towards the assault result.

which indicates to me that overkill wounds are counted.

 

becuase of the wound pool principle and no real wound allocation to speak of you dont ever discard wounds.. theres no such thing.

you keep rolling saves until all wounds are saved or cause casualties.

 

note unsaved wounds go into the wound pool before deciding where they lie/allocating.. therefore IMO all overkill wounds DO count

[Legatus]

However, the rules for determining the assault results also use the term "unsaved wounds" more generally, before they go into detail to specify that only those that are actually substracted from enemy models are counted.

 

"To decide who has won the combat, total up the number of unsaved Wounds inflicted by each side onto their opponents." (6E, RBR, p. 26)

 

The entire paragraph essentially explains how determining assault results work in general. And all it ever mentions are "unsaved wounds". Only in the next paragraph is it then "noted" that wounds that are negated by saving throws or wounds in excess of the models' Wound characteristics do not count.

 

Combine that with how the "unsaved wounds" of the "rest of the unit" are also mentioned in the Challenge rules:

 

"Unsaved Wounds caused in a challenge count towards the assault result, alongside any unsaved Wounds caused by the rest of the characters' units." (6E, BRB, p. 65)

 

But you do not just count the "usnaved wounds" of the unit, as mentioned in that sentence.

[greatcrusade08]

ah thats better.. thanks legatus i was hoping i was wrong.

[thade]

They could've reduced that entire passage down to "Wounds inflicted" or something else more specific. It's functional as it is, if a touch roundabout.

[greatcrusade08]

you should see the huge swathe of gumph on moving challengers in combat, its rediculous.

[thade]

you should see the huge swathe of gumph on moving challengers in combat, its rediculous.

RAW is just to move the Challenger into BtB with the Challenged model, swapping him with another model in his unit if necessary. Get them into BtB for Rule of Cool and be easy going about it.

 

40k is not well suited for competitive play, and the potential to cheekily bend rules to advantage in situations like Moving for a challenge is just one example.

[StrayCatt]

Legatus ... You never cease to impress ... That is a better reading and interpretation of the rules than I made, and I wondered about overkill even as I typed it. Your point appears solid, valid, and logical.

 

 

So how long till GW throws logic out the window and FAQs it as being the opposite of what we just determined.

;)

[Aidoneus]

Wounds allocated to a character in a challenge cannot be reallocated by the look Out, Sir rule.

So there's that taken care of.

 

For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other.

This makes it plain enough when the character being struck is his own unit. However, it doesn't make clear what happens when the target is a member of a squad (a Sgt, say, or even a joined IC now). RAW, it never says a Challenge supersedes or in any way gets around the normal rules for allocation. According to the Assault section, you strike blows against the unit and allocate based on distance. So yes, the model you're challenging, being the only model in base-to-base, takes all the wounds (or unsaved wounds) first, until he dies. However, nothing ever says extra wounds (or unsaved wounds) wouldn't then get allocated the next-closest model, and so on.

[thade]

In Fantasy (the basis for this) excess wounds (beyond a model's remaining wounds) in a challenge actually add onto the combat result; I expected that here too, but that's not the case. So...what does happen to wounds in excess? In the case of an IC it's easy...they're wasted. My gut tells me the true is same of Characters without the IC rule, but again it's unclear. Maybe they do overflow into the unit...but if that's the case I think they'd spell it out. Since it's kind of a punishment for accepting with a Sgt.

 

An unfortunate oversight. Aidoneous explained the "overflow into the unit" position, if your local group thinks that way.

[Cazino]

A problem arises if, let's say a Sergeant with a unit challenges a 3 wound single character. The character inflicts 4 wounds, and kills the sergeant. The sergenat inflicts 2 wounds leaving the characterwith 1 left. The character wins the challenge, but if excess wounds aren't counted the character is down with 1, even though he won.

[thade]

RAI that makes sense to me; the Sgt is a martyr, which is very fluffy.

 

We've already hammered out the RAW conundrum here.

[Ming]

Following the game guide at the end of the book, the challenge match does not occur in the initiative order, it occurs after all other assault attacks were made. So indeed, it is handled as a completely separate combat, check the wording there too... we played it that way in my game yesterday, worked well. Going back today to check on rules we may have missed or got wrong...