Kitting out a Character for Challenges

[rpnightsend]

I'm not sure I'd ever do this, but i feel like its definitely a discussion I'd like to have. If taking a generic IC from C:SM, what would be the best way to make them a monstrosity in challenges? Here's my brief analysis:

Unit:

Librarian

Pros - Access to Biomancy for some serious buffs, Force Weapon

Cons - Lower I, A, WS, and W then captain, Biomancy is a crapshoot so even if you get a buff spell you may end up with +1 str and toughness, no invuln save without TDA.

 

Chaplain

Pros - Rerolls to hit on the charge, comes with a Power Maul

Cons - Lower I, A, WS and W then captain, Power Maul is high AP, and concussive is only helpful after the first round of combat, while the chaplain only gets his rerolls in the first round

 

Captain

Pros - Just about every option for weapons/upgrades, best base statline

Cons - Doesnt come with a Power Weapon stock, no way to increase his statline or buff his squad

 

Weapons

Power Sword - Normal I and S, this is probably a bad choice because of its high AP

Power Lance - Unless you can practically assure yourself you'll always get the charge this is nearly useless, and even then barely better than a sword.

Power Axe - The best AP of the basic power weapons, cheaper than a fist and improves your S at the cost of swinging at I1. Good for characters who will survive the first round of attacks.

Power Maul - An odd choice, but maybe not the worst. Especially in the hands of a chaplain or librarian, if you can ensure they'l survive the first round of combat it has a chance of making up for their low I.

Power Fist - Like the Axe and Maul, good for characters with staying power, this thing is probably the best choice for a character who you know can survive your opponent's initial attacks.

Thunder Hammer - For 5 Points more than a fist you get the same thing, plus concussive. Probably worth it if you were getting the fist anyways.

Relic Blade - A better option than a Power Sword most of the time, the AP3 doesnt make it perfect, but probably the best option for a faster character.

Lightning Claw(s) - For twice the price of a power sword you get the same number of attacks and rerll failed wounds. A good alternative to a thunder hammer if you're looking for speed or an extra attack. Unfortunately if you plan on taking a storm shield the hammer or relic blade will probably be better options

 

Armor

TDA - 2+ Armor and 5++ makes it probably the best choice for a librarian, but captains and chaplains already have a better invuln. Without the artificer armor option, not a bad choice for chaplains either, and not being able to fit ina rhino isnt as big a deal as it used to be

Artificer - Only an option for Captains, but a great choice, especially given the low amount of AP2 CC weapons out there now

Bike - Not Armor per se, but the bonus to toughness will most likely mean the difference between life and instant death. Can be combined with artificer armor on a captain, but unfortuneately limits his transportability.

Storm Shield - Always a good option, the 3++ is reliable enough that the few weapons that would pierce a 2+ armor won't be nearly as much of a threat. Best used with a thunder hammer or relic blade as you're already losing your extra attack with those.

 

Other

Digital Weapons - Might be worth it on lower S weapons like Sword and Axes, but probably not worth it for hammers or fists.

Melta Bombs - For 5 pts you can give yourself a chance to ram a meltabomb down a hive tyrant's mouth. Possibly worth it if you dont have a fist or hammer.

Jump Pack - Cheaper than a Bike, but without the +1 toughness and the fact a bike character can join a squad of jump infantry makes it almost definitely not worth it

 

Obviously how to get your character there is important too, including their transport/who they roll with, but i think we should come up with our ideal build first, then decide how to get them there.

[DarkGuard]

Not a bad summary, a couple of points though.

 

When you talk about the force maul/stave being good for Librarian's if they can survive earlier attacks, I can't help but think that the force axe would be better. If you're striking latter than most people you'd challenge anyway why not take the force axe and ride out the attacks, and then hit with S5 AP2? also, with the Lobrarian, Biomancy has some good combat buffs, but also look at Fiery Form in Pyromancy. It gives +2S and a 4+ invulnerable save, while also having Soul Blaze which could be handy in later rounds. Of course, there's only a 1/6 chance of getting it. Sunburst however may be a good backup if you don't get it due to Blind, but that's still only 1/3 of getting a useful challenge power.

 

The thing is, I do think that Captains (and Chapter Masters) are far and away our best challenge characters. They just have the stats and equipment to do it, and the fact that they are our best challengers will hopefully see their use go up.

 

Also, you forgot to mention lightning claws for the Captain, a pair of them gives him a lot of attacks in combat and shred is also very handy.

[Reinholt]

Captain, on a bike, with artificer armor, with a thunder hammer.

 

If you are looking purely for dueling power, he's got a 2+/4++ (though you could throw a storm shield on him for a 3++ if you think it is necessary), T5, 3 wounds, and will pound most things in the face if he survives their attacks.

 

Not the cheapest option, but short of heading to the special characters section, one of our best. In terms of raw power for the price, how about the humble master of the forge? 115 points to give him a power weapon, and then he's also toting a servo harness and a 2+ base, which is surprisingly good for the price compared to the other marine HQs.

[Koremu]

The bike gives you increased hitting power, better pre-assault shooting and immunity to ID from most sources. In terms of pure Character vs Character combat, it's a top choice.

[rpnightsend]

Right. I missed Storm shields and claws in my analysis. Lemme add those

[LoreDraconis]

Whats the Master of the Forge?! Chopped liver?

 

You hurt my Iron Hands' feelings...oh wait they dont have any.

 

Good summary otherwise. I agree on the bikes...it's a ruthless option, but it does reduce of ablative wounds you can give him, and those wounds are expensive, in the form of either a command squad or a biker squad. I like that you need to consider that tradeoff now with look out sir.

 

So, since you neglected the poor guy:

 

Master of the Forge:

 

6th had dramatically increased his viability. No access to invul saves, but look out sir and the changes to AP in melee has taken him from liability in 5th to a very interesting choice in 6th.

 

Comes with 2+ Standard

Comes with 2x S8 Armor ignoring attacks standard. (no AP till further notice :[)

Access to power weps and thunderhammer.

Maul could be an interesting choice, since it could knock a something with AP 1>4 down to 1 to allow you to hit with your servo-arms simultaneously.

Sword would be nice otherwise for matching I4 since you already get 2 fist equivalent attacks.

Prolly no to hammer, since you'd want to mix it up.

 

No invul does hurt for challenges, but if you run him with a chump sergeant to take the challenges when its not in your favor, you can keep him merrily squashing squadmembers while staying almost impervious.

 

Also, he has a 50% chance to repair your transport if it gets immobilized enroute, and can remove hullpoints to keep it up long enough to get there.

 

Don't discount him so easily, he's probably the most buffed HQ of this edition.

[Captain Idaho]

Master of the Forge is a favourite model of mine and the ultimate Ultramarine, since it's such a utility character. But a good shooter (given 2 Plasma Pistols combined with the Plasma Cutter) and only an average assaulter really. The pair Power Fist attacks is great and all, but wholly reliant on the opponent not having a AP2 weapon themselves. Not a bad choice though.

 

Ultimately though, as far as ICs go, outside Special Characters the best choices are Captains since they are consistent. Given a Storm Shield and Articifer Armour they are pretty offensive and Relic Blades take advantage of their high Initiatve. Apart from Terminators and their equivilent, this armament is the most ideal choice. AP3 is more than sufficient against the majority of opponents, and you can expect to kill squad leaders easily enough.

 

Special Characters are a different kettle of fish. They are all pretty good in assaults, with the juggernaughts of Calgar and Lysander being the scariest prospects. Special mention goes to Sicarius who has a 2+ save, 4+ invulnerable save and Feel No Pain on top of this. He's pretty tasty in Challenges.

[Koremu]

The Assault Squad Sergeant is also worth a thought. He can take a Power Fist/Storm Shield Combo which we all used to ignore because of 5th edition wound allocation. However, in a challenge that Combo could be pretty tasty, as it gives him a good chance to survive to I1, and a decent chance to ID his opponent.

[Arikel]

One thing to keep in mind here is the new specialist weapon rule. From what I understand the rule means you get +1A only if your second weapon is also a specialist weapon(not required to be of the same type). This means a captain could be kitted with one power fist(or thunder hammer) and one lightning claw, get the +1a for having two specialist weapons, and use whichever weapon profile would be most advantageous in the battle he is fighting. Give him Artificer armor as well and you have a new melee build that's possibly better than the old relic blade/storm shield option.

[thade]

Master of the Forge is a favourite model of mine and the ultimate Ultramarine, since it's such a utility character.

Don't forget that his first loyalty and priority will always be Ad Mech. <3

 

Captain and Chaplains are my personal favorites for challenges; Iron Halo/Rosarius and a variety of power weapons available.

[LoreDraconis]

Yup, you make a good point Cpt Idaho. He's probably better off with a gun, but with the new rules, it seems like a much better bet to put him out front. With Snapfire and overwatch, adding him to a sternguard squad might work out exceptionally well, since he will, very least, put the fear of mutual destruction out there for any champ looking to challenge, and when the Sternguards DO get charged, he can add his flamer and twin-linked plas pistol to the overwatch shots, which is quite a threat.

 

Which brings up a question...how would you equip your sternguard sergeant to act as a support challenge sponge? Load him up with gear, it treat it as a liability and just give him a cheap loadout and assume you'll chump him in a challenge so your MotF can keep fighting?

[Captain Idaho]

With the Look out Sir! rules he will be quite survivable even if someone tries to torrent him to death, so he can easily be placed at the front to soak up hits.

 

Any ways, NO 2 PLASMA PISTOLS for MotF, though he still gets 2 shots anyway! ^_^

[Febelcrofas]

Also, is there any reason why your relic blade cannot be an axe? I was thinking about this last night and I couldn't find any reason why not. However I could have been a bit tired! The way I see it is you get the extra strength and then stick it with the storm shield to provide the staying power to actually use it. Artificer armour a must or puny power swords are going to carve you a new one.

[Koremu]

Also, is there any reason why your relic blade cannot be an axe? I was thinking about this last night and I couldn't find any reason why not. However I could have been a bit tired! The way I see it is you get the extra strength and then stick it with the storm shield to provide the staying power to actually use it. Artificer armour a must or puny power swords are going to carve you a new one.

My understanding was that a Relic Blade, even in the shape of an axe, was S+2, AP3

[Febelcrofas]

Surely if it's an axe its ap2? Not got my books on me so can't check. Is it in the c:sm faq?

[Captain Idaho]

A Relic Blade is a Relic Blade regardless of it's appearance, so it's going to follow the rules for a unique weapon and therefore is AP3.

 

Players are getting very confused on this but it is all there in the rule book ;)

[Febelcrofas]

Ah gottcha! Yes now I see where it clearly states that in the rulebook. D'oh!

And I guess that you would just call it a power axe as you'd get +1 strength anyway. Long night painting last night, not enough sleep and a daughter who woke me up far too early!!

I think anyway my captain will stay the same till I've had a few games and decide he may need a swap out. I think the 2+ 3++ and ap2 hits even at int1 might prove quite effective. Time will tell I suppose.

[Reinholt]

In the previous edition I was running a powerfist captain who was always very effective; he was not so much a go-first wrecking ball himself as the ultimate deterrent, as if an enemy was not 100% sure that they were going to kill him in combat before he went, they usually either avoided him or got punched directly in the face with a powerfist.

 

To that end, I'm looking at artificer armor + power fist or thunder hammer for this edition, so anyone going before him isn't going to break his armor, and anyone going after him is going to take something large to the face. I wouldn't bother with an axe on a captain; the axe is the cheaper choice for squad leaders. When you are talking about one of the best melee platforms in the marine book, spend the extra 10 points to make him cause instant death if you are going to be going last.