Look Out, Sir! and Mixed Saves

[puffin]

I'm seriously confused by the LOS! rule and how it works in the shooting step, as the wording seems ambiguous.

 

P16, LOS! states: "When a Wound (or unsaved Wound) is allocated to you character".

 

1. In the simple case of common saves you are told on P15 to roll your saves then "Allocate Unsaved Wounds and Remove Models". In this case the LOS! test happens after saves.

 

2. In the simple case of every model having a different save you are told on P15 to "Allocate Wounds" then take your save and if it fails "reduce that model's wounds by 1". Note that it does not say you allocate an unsaved wound (and therefore LOS! needs to occur at Wound Allocation, or before saves are taken).

 

3. In the case of mixed saves where you have a group of models you are told on P16 (Fast Saves) that you can "allocate them in groups equal to however many models with the same save are nearest the firing unit". Note that there is no minimum size for a group here. Also note that there is no distinction between a character and a non-character. In this case you roll for saves as a group and then remove models as required. Because you only know how many wounds are taken by your character once saves have been taken, this is essentially the same as type 1 (Allocated Unsaved Wounds) and therefore LOS! must occur after saves.

 

 

Now assuming my logic is correct (and I don't claim it is), that means we have encountered something of a conundrum. Are points 2 and 3 exclusive or is 2 simply a special case of 3 (i.e. can I allocate a single wound to my group of 1 model, roll its save and then assign the unsaved wound to that model?).

 

Am I crazy? Is the process intended to be different for multi-save units when only one model has a different save? Or is LOS! always taken after saves for shooting?

 

Thoughts?

[thade]

You're over thinking. <3

 

In 5th Ed, wounds were allocated and then saves were rolled. In 6th it goes the other way: saves are thrown then wounds are allocated.

 

So, in 6th, when you fail a save and would be compelled to allocate that wound to a Character (in Shooting due to range, in Assault due to him being the last model in the "front rank") you can use LOS! to try and displace that unsaved wound to another model.

 

The save was already rolled so that wound is "unsaved", thus whatever brave model dives in to soak the hit doesn't get his or her save; they just take the wound.

 

Not so bad, right? :P

 

EDIT: typos

[puffin]

That's how I think it works, too.

 

The confusion for me comes from speaking with people who have read http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/07/back-to-b...odels-from.html and have came to a different conclusion. Specifically, read the section under the image labelled "Example 2" in the LOS! section.

[thade]

I humbly recommend not paying much mind to Kirby. His goal is to break the game such that it benefits him (and I guess his readers) in pay-to-play tournaments.

 

Technically he's correct: pure RAW does say that you "allocate" before making a save in mixed armor groups. Honestly, you can use the primary method in all cases, provided you still do each armor group separately. Consider units of Wolfguard, which can go half PA, half TDA. Or BT units where PA'd marines hang out with Scouts (or Initiates or whatever). Here you choose a Wound Pool (there may be several, boltgun wounds, plasma wounds, etc) and pit each against whatever armor group makes up the "front rank". You may have the

marines all mixed up so your "ranks" end up being like: three PA guys in front; a TDA guy with four PA marines, all equidistant from the firer; a bank of TDA guys.

 

In that contrived example, say the firer tells us to eat the two plasma hits first. Pull two guys as PA is in front. Next boltgun wounds. Since we have (if you can imagine) three rows of marines like this:

 

- lone PA guy in front

- one terminator and four PA guys next

- a bunch of terminators in the back

 

I think it works like this:

 

- roll saves until all of the PA guys are dead (pulling from the front as they die);

- roll saves until all TDA guys are dead (again pulling from the front);

- if you run out of wounds, stop rollin saves ^_^

 

If you mixed Characters in there, they're treated as if they're in whatever group they fit in...and they get LOS when they'd be forced to take a wound as the next closest model.

 

The relationship between LOS! and Mixed Saves becomes trivial when viewed this way.

[greatcrusade08]

i would probably argue with 3++ by asking how can you allocate an usaved wound BEFORE the save has been made???

[thade]

GC08: it's RAW. P15, under Mixed Saves:Allocate Wounds. It happens before saves are taken, in this case.

[Legatus]

Scenario 1: "All have the same save"

 

T = Templar Initiate (3+ save)

 

C = Character (3+ save)

 

 

T - T - T - T - T

- T - T - T - T

- - - -C

 

 

^ ^ ^ ^ fire from here, causing 7 wounds

 

Process: Because all models have the same save, all 7 saves are rolled first. The 4 "unsaved wounds" are then distributed to the Character and three Templar Initiates (1). The Initiates are removed as casualties, but the Character can now attempt a "Look out, Sir!" roll.

 

 

Scenario 2: "Different saves"

 

T = Templar Initiate (3+ save)

 

[C] = Character with artificer armour (2+ save)

 

T - T - T - T - T

- T - T - T - T

- - - - [C]

- - - T

 

 

^ ^ ^ ^ fire from here, causing 7 wounds

 

Process: Now the "saveable wounds" are allocated before saves are made. The closest Templar Initiate gets one wound allocated to it and makes a save, which he passes. He gets a second save allocated to it, fails the save and is removed. Now there are 5 more "saveable wounds". these will be allocated to the Character until he loses all of his wounds, and he can make a "Look Out, Sir!" roll for any wound allocated to him before he makes his own save.

 

 

 

Scenario 3: "Different saves, and save groups"

 

T = Templar Initiate (3+ save)

 

N = Neophyte (4+ save)

 

C = Character (3+ save)

 

T - T - T - T - T

- N - N - N - N

- - T - C - T

 

 

 

^ ^ ^ ^ fire from here, causing 7 wounds

 

Process: Because the unit has differnet saves, the "saveable wounds" are allocated before saves are rolled. The three closest models all have the same 3+ save, so instead of only allocating a single wound to the closest model, three wounds are allocated to the closest "save group". Because the Character is among the models getting a wound allocated to them (2), he can now make a "Look out, Sir!" roll to evade that "saveable" wound, similar to the first scenario, where he was just one among many models being allocated with a wound at the same time.

 

 

Essentially, a Character can not only use "Look out, Sir!" when a single wound is allocated to him specifically. He can also use "Look Out, Sir!" if he is among a larger group of models that all get a wound allocated to them (2), like in the most basic scenario 1 and the more complex scenario 3. It does not matter whether the wound has already been saved for (failing) or whether saves are still allowed to be taken. The "Look out, Sir!" is made at the moment it is allocated to the Character.

 

 

Does that make things clearer?

 

 

 

 

 

Correction 1: Wounds are allocated to the front model, in the case of scenario 1 the character, one by one until that character is removed. Only then would one start allocating wounds to the models behind it.

 

Correction 2: Whenever it occurs that wounds are allocated to a character, wounds are allocated to it one by one, and that is repeated until it has lost all of its wounds or (if he passes a lot of 'Look Out, Sir!' rolls) until the wound pool is spent. Characters always get wounds allocated to them one by one, because either they can attempt 'Look Out, Sir!' against each of them, or because he has multiple wounds that have to be removed before models further back can get wounds allocated to them.

[greatcrusade08]

ill have to get some games in and work it out, i think its a bit clearer,

if you ask me the whole ruddy thing is way overly complex.

[thade]

Thanks, Legatus.

[Legatus]

We all need to get used to it, as it is a new system. I have yet to try it myself. But I don't think it is much more complicated than treating the sergeant, the flamer and the missile launcher as separate "save groups" from the boltgun Marines as it worked in 5th.

[thade]

I agree. The biggest changes seem to me to be that wargear (that doesn't confer saves) doesn't impact wound alloc anymore, and that wounds are at times allocated before or after saves.

 

I like what little I've seen of it. <_<

[greatcrusade08]

its having different methods for different situations that i find overly complex tbh.. the new wound allocation rules for a squad of equal armour groups is fantastic.

 

if for example i had calgar at the front of a unit of scout bikes (just as an example) i would have to allocate before i roll for saves is that correct?

does that then mean id only put a single wound on calgar, becuase i thought you kept rolling until the front chap was dead and then moved on.

[thade]

If Calgar's in front, roll or LOS! one save at a time til either they're all dealt with or Calgar dies. In the latter case, left over wounds land on the bikes.

[greatcrusade08]

If Calgar's in front, roll or LOS! one save at a time til either they're all dealt with or Calgar dies. In the latter case, left over wounds land on the bikes.

 

ah you make it sound simple.. LOS has to be done before saves though due to different armour types, is that right?

[thade]

Given Legatus's summary, yes. Makes more sense RAI as well. That's nice. <_<

[greatcrusade08]

cool, i think im getting it.

[Legatus]

One big change to the 5th Edition system is that you are no longer required to allocate a single wound to every model in the unit before you are allowed to put more wounds on a model. With the new system, in a scenario like the scenario 2 above, where a single model with a different save is stanging at the front of the unit, you continue to allocate wounds to that single model until it is removed, before you start allocating wounds to any other model.

 

That means that putting a 2+ model in front of a 3+ unit will potentially allow that model to soak up a lot of low-AP fire directed at the unit, since you would be doing 2 saves for that single model until it is eventually removed and you then start allocatig wounds to the rest of the unit.

However, this would also not only mean that the precious 2+ model would potentially be the first casualty from a failed, it also means that the 2+ model would take the incoming AP2 shots as well. If it is a character, it gets "Look Out , Sir!" against those, but that is not all that reliable.

[LoreDraconis]

Nice breakdown! This is how I understood it as well.

[Aidoneus]

I'm not sure I read the rules the same way as the above example. Say you all have the same save (3+, because this is the B&C :) ).

 

M=Marine

C=Captain

 

M M M M

M M M M

C

 

 

^^^^^

enemies

 

 

Let's say you take 8 wounds. Your models all have the same save, so you roll all your saves together, before allocation. Let's say you pass 3 and take 5 unsaved wounds (because you roll marine saves like I do, apparently). Next, according to Page 15 of the BRB, you "allocate an unsaved Wound to the enemy model closest to the firing unit. Reduce that model's Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty. Continue allocating unsaved Wounds to the closest model..." Therefore, the rules clearly state that you allocate a single unsaved Wound at a time.

 

The trick is, Look Out, Sir is rolled "When a Wound (or unsaved Wound) is allocated to one of your characters..." (Page 16). It seems to me that you make the Look Out, Sir attempt as soon as the first unsaved Wound is allocated to the Captain.

 

Thus, you allocate the first unsaved wound to the captain, fail Look Out, Sir, reduce the Captain's Wounds to 2. Next, you allocate the second unsaved wound to the captain, pass Look Out, Sir, kill a Marine. Allocate the third unsaved wound to the Captain, fail Look Out, Sir, reduce the Captain's wounds to 1. Allocate the fourth unsaved wound to the Captain, fail Look Out, Sir, the Captain dies and is removed as a casualty. The fifth unsaved wound then gets allocated to the next-closest Marine, who dies (unless he's the sergeant, in which case you can attempt Look Out, Sir to save him).

 

This is important for 2 reasons. First, if your character is out front, he is in much greater danger of dying, because unsaved wounds keep being allocated to him until he dies, or you run out of unsaved wounds. Second, if you have a squad of multi-wound models (Paladins and Nobz, I'm looking at you), you can roll all of your saves together, allocate them to the IC in front (Draigo/Warboss, respectively), then use your 2+ Look Out, Sir rolls to spread every single unsaved wound around to separate models in the unit. This is why wound-allocation shenanigans are still very much alive in multi-wound units, and they don't even need to all be armed differently to do it any more. All you need is a character out front (preferably an IC).

[Legatus]

Yes, I made a little msitake in my scenario 1. In case all saves are the same and a multi-wound character is standing at the front of the unit, that character gets wounds allocated to him one by one until all his wounds are removed or, in case he passes several 'Look out, Sir!' tests, until the wound pool is spent. You would not allocate one wound to the character and the remaining wounds to models behind him as I had said in that example. (But then I didn't say that it was a multi-wound character, so it may have worked in some instances.)

[puffin]

Scenario 3: "Different saves, and save groups"

 

T = Templar Initiate (3+ save)

 

N = Neophyte (4+ save)

 

C = Character (3+ save)

 

T - T - T - T - T

- N - N - N - N

- - T - C - T

 

 

 

^ ^ ^ ^ fire from here, causing 7 wounds

 

Process: Because the unit has differnet saves, the "saveable wounds" are allocated before saves are rolled. The three closest models all have the same 3+ save, so instead of only allocating a single wound to the closest model, three wounds are allocated to the closest "save group". Because the Character is among the models getting a wound allocated to them (2), he can now make a "Look out, Sir!" roll to evade that "saveable" wound, similar to the first scenario, where he was just one among many models being allocated with a wound at the same time.

I'm pretty sure that's not how it works in this case. P15 specifically states that you allocate a wound to the nearest model and resolve it, then continue until the wound pool is depleted. You do not assign a wound to more than one model at a time and then resolve for that specific model. So in your example you would determine which model is closest (by roll-off if necessary) and then continue rolling saves until he dies, then moving to the next model (and so on). According to RAW here, once your character is the nearest model you would Allocate a Wound to him, and he could LOS! at this point.

 

However, p16, in the section on Fast Dice, states that you may roll as many saves as there are remaining wounds in the group of models with that save. In this case - as the example in the BRB clearly shows - wounds are not allocated to models and instead are rolled as a group, with any failed saves being removed from the front (he rolls 6 saves for 6 models, fails 4 and removes the four closest - there is no mention of any particular model failing the save). In this case, you would be using LOS! after saves have been taken, because in the case where the character was not at the front of the group you would not know before taking the saves how many wounds would be placed on the character.

 

Now, the question becomes, is there a rule anywhere that states whether Fast Dice must be used (or indeed must not be when characters are involved)? If there is I can't find it and the specifics of Fast Dice mention all models with a specific save, not wargear or special rules. And this is the contradiction - p15 states that wounds are assigned one by one and therefore LOS! must happen when the wound is assigned to the model, but p16 says if you Fast Dice you are allowed to take saves then remove models, applying LOS! to unsaved wounds. Additionally, there is no definition of "Group of models" so I'm able to say that I am using the Fast Dice method even if my character is the only model with a particular save - I will be allocating the wounds to that group of one model and then allocating unsaved wounds as appropriate.

 

Ultimately you have to decide whether it is GW's intention to allow LOS! after saves or not. In the case of single-save units this is definitely the case, while in the case of multi-save units this is open to interpretation. Given that it is entirely possible (through the cover save is per model not per squad rule) for the same character to have the same save as his unit normally and a different save a turn later, I find it hard to draw the conclusion that LOS! should be handled differently.

[Aidoneus]

Puffin, I don't think that's right. First off, the fast dice section is a travesty of rule-writing, and should have been left out entirely. We know when it's okay to roll multiple dice, but apparently GW doesn't.

 

Anyway, that aside, the only time the word "allocate" is used in the fast dice section is when you allocate wounds (not unsaved wounds) to the group of models. Notice, it never says you allocate unsaved wounds within that group. The rules for Look Out, Sir specifically say it can only be rolled when a wound or unsaved wound is "allocated." Therefore, you can use Look Out, Sir upon initially allocating a wound to the character, but not after he has failed his armour save.

 

The problem with fast dice is that it doesn't take into account characters or any models with multiple wounds. Let's say you have a unit of Wraiths with 3 whip coil models in front, then a pistol model, then another 2 whip models. You fast dice the 3 front wraiths and fail all 3 saves. What happens? Do you remove 1 and put a wound on another, or does each model take a single wound, since they have each been allocated one wound before saves?

[StrayCatt]

But the rule explicitly states that is GWs intention, as you can use LOS for any wounds (or unsaved wounds.) It comes down to if the armor save group allowing you to fast dice, you are not required, includes a character. If it does, then you allocate wounds ... If the character is part of an armor save group of 1, based on distance or otherwise, then you allocate an unsaved wound on him which you can attempt an armor save against, OR, use LOS to transfer the unsaved wound to another model.

 

LOS becomes usable once the save has been allocated, regardless of if a save has been attempted or not. When the Character has the same save as the rest of the unit, you will have fast rolled the armor save before resolving LOS if you choose to do so. If the character does not have the same armor save, then you decide if you will use LOS, if you do and successful, the model the wound is transferred to get to attempt a save. If you fail to LOS, then the character gets to attempt the save.

 

Does that make it any clearer?

[StrayCatt]

Puffin, I don't think that's right. First off, the fast dice section is a travesty of rule-writing, and should have been left out entirely. We know when it's okay to roll multiple dice, but apparently GW doesn't.

 

Anyway, that aside, the only time the word "allocate" is used in the fast dice section is when you allocate wounds (not unsaved wounds) to the group of models. Notice, it never says you allocate unsaved wounds within that group. The rules for Look Out, Sir specifically say it can only be rolled when a wound or unsaved wound is "allocated." Therefore, you can use Look Out, Sir upon initially allocating a wound to the character, but not after he has failed his armour save.

 

The problem with fast dice is that it doesn't take into account characters or any models with multiple wounds. Let's say you have a unit of Wraiths with 3 whip coil models in front, then a pistol model, then another 2 whip models. You fast dice the 3 front wraiths and fail all 3 saves. What happens? Do you remove 1 and put a wound on another, or does each model take a single wound, since they have each been allocated one wound before saves?

You remove one and reduce a 2nd model to 1 wound. It seems the option of fast dice is causing people to default to v5 wound allocation. The whole purpose of fast dice is to allow you to speed the process of rolling when the situation allows you to.

 

In your example, the unit takes 6 wounds ... But all affected models have the same armor save. You can either:

 

1. Take one of the wounds, allocate it to the closest model and attempt a save. Once the model is reduced to zero wounds, it is removed, and you start with the next closest model. Working this way, say the closest model saves once, fails once, saves again, and fails a second time. 4 wounds have been resolved, and one model is removed. You then Move to the next closest model, save once and fail once. That models wounds are reduced by one, and now all wounds have been resolved.

 

2. You realize all of the models have the same save, so you batch roll all the saves, failing on three. You then allocate wounds t the closest model until it has been reduced to zero, eliminating two wounds in this case, and continue allocating to the next closest until there are no models, or no wounds to allocate.

[Aidoneus]

New question: since you allocate to the "group" and not to the "model," does Look Out, Sir even apply? You only get to use that when a wound or unsaved wound is allocated to the character. But a group is not the same thing as the character. So if you had 2 marines and a marine sgt, then an attached Termy chaplain, then the rest of the same marine squad, you choose to fast dice the first 3 saves, fail them all... I think you are forced to lose the Sgt.