Look Out, Sir! and Mixed Saves

[StrayCatt]

But the action of fast dicing does not allocate wounds, it is simply a more expedient method of rolling to hit, to wound, or saves.

 

Why roll one dice 15 times looking for the same result each time, when you can just roll fifteen once?

[Aidoneus]

That would be fine, if that's what it said. But it's not. It says, instead of allocating Wounds one at a time, "[y]ou can instead allocate them in group..." Allocate is a term of art, and it means a specific thing. It also is the exact event that can allow a character to roll a Look Out, Sir attempt. By changing the order in which allocation and saves are conducted, the Fast Dice section actually introduces new rules, which work differently from those stated in more detail above.

[StrayCatt]

If that is the actual wording of fast dice, then I stand corrected. As I don't have my BRB with me, I will have to table that point.

 

But, in my mind at least, the intent of the rule is clear.

 

Might is suggest discussing it with your opponent? If you were playing me, and insisted on RAW as you have quoted, then I would not fast dice wounds on a unit with a character if the character was effected, as I want the option of LOS. My preferred method would be to do it as I described instead. The results would ultimately be the same.

[puffin]

That would be fine, if that's what it said. But it's not. It says, instead of allocating Wounds one at a time, "[y]ou can instead allocate them in group..." Allocate is a term of art, and it means a specific thing. It also is the exact event that can allow a character to roll a Look Out, Sir attempt. By changing the order in which allocation and saves are conducted, the Fast Dice section actually introduces new rules, which work differently from those stated in more detail above.

Yes, the wounds are allocated to the group, then saves are made and any unsaved wounds are then allocated to individual models (using the exact same process determined on p15 for single-save units). To address the question of the Fast Dice section not saying you allocate unsaved wounds: if you don't allocate unsaved wounds what happens after you've made saves? You have a group with unsaved wounds on them but have to remove the nearest models - this is done by allocating the unsaved wounds from the group to individual models (aka. allocating unsaved wounds)!

 

This makes logical sense to me - fast rolling is simply the process of dividing a mixed save unit into groups that have the same save and then applying the same-save process to it. As the same-save process says LOS! happens after saves then it should happen after saves for multi-saves, too. HOWEVER, they have explicitly stated a different process for multi-save units at the bottom of p15.

 

The issue is determining which multi-save process is the correct one: the one on p15 or the one on p16. Intuitively, the p16 Fast Dice process makes more sense (and I can't believe GW wants us to roll lots of dice individually), BUT RAW doesn't work like that!

 

Are we into dice-off territory here or is it possible to get a ruling based upon what the book says?

[StrayCatt]

I think some of the issue is due to the wording of LOS ... i.e. "... Wounds (or unsaved Wounds) are allocated ..."

 

In this particular rule, wounds means any wounds that you have rolled an available save against, and unsaved wounds means any you haven't yet rolled an available save against. This would allow for my interpretation of fast dice, as you allocate to the group, roll saves, then allocate to individual models and apply results.

[Aidoneus]

Yes, the wounds are allocated to the group, then saves are made and any unsaved wounds are then allocated to individual models...

(emphasis added)

I disagree with the portion I've put in bold above. The Fast Dice section never says unsaved wounds are "allocated." Again, the word allocate is a term of art, and the rest of the rules are very clear on when you allocate what. In the case of Fast Dice, you allocate to a group before saves are made, you roll all the saves, and then... what? It doesn't say! The example says you simply remove models, but the rule itself just leaves it up to implication.

 

Are we into dice-off territory here or is it possible to get a ruling based upon what the book says?

Sadly, I think this is the case. :)

[Legatus]

I'm pretty sure that's not how it works in this case. P15 specifically states that you allocate a wound to the nearest model and resolve it, then continue until the wound pool is depleted. You do not assign a wound to more than one model at a time and then resolve for that specific model. So in your example you would determine which model is closest (by roll-off if necessary) and then continue rolling saves until he dies, then moving to the next model (and so on). According to RAW here, once your character is the nearest model you would Allocate a Wound to him, and he could LOS! at this point.

Indeed, that is not how it works. I made a mistake, and the red marked text is incorrectly applying the "fast dice" method. As soon as a character is involved, you have to allocate wounds one by one, and cannot allcoate wounds to other models of the same save at the same time.

 

 

Now, the question becomes, is there a rule anywhere that states whether Fast Dice must be used (or indeed must not be when characters are involved)?

The important thing about "fast dice" is to realize that it is not a "rule" about how wound allocation works. It is a suggestion to speed up the process.

 

E.g. take a unit with six normal Marines (3+) in the front and a Terminator Captain (2+) in the back.

- - - T

M - M - M

- M - M - M

 

The unit now is fired at and the opponent scores 9 wounds.

 

Regular wound allocation process

 

According to the regular rules for wound allocation, you would allocate them one at a time, and taking saves individually after allocating each wound.

 

So one wound (1) is allocated to the 1st Marine, he passes.

 

Another wound (2) is allocated to the 1st Marine, he fails.

 

One wound (3) is allocated to the 2nd Marine, he fails.

 

One wound (4) is allocated to the 3rd Marine, he passes.

 

One wound (5) is allocated to 3rd Marine, he fails.

 

One wound (6) is allocated to 4th Marine, he fails.

 

--> There are now three more wounds to go, but I'll stop at this point. Of the six normal Marines, four have died, and two remain. No wounds have been allocated to the character in the back yet.

- - - T

M - M

 

"Fast dice" process

 

Because the six Marines have the same save, six wounds are allocated to them in one go. Six saves are rolled. Using the same results as in the previous go, two pass and four fail. Now four Marines are removed.

 

--> There are now three more wounds to go. Of the six Marines, four have died, and two remain. No wounds have been allocated to the character yet.

- - - T

M - M

 

I.e. the outcome is exactly the same. Whether you allocate six wounds one by one, removing a model each time a save is failed, or whether you roll as many saves as there are identical models. The outcome will be the same. You will have rolled X number of dice, and have failes Y of them. The models removed will always be the closest to the enemy.

 

Because the end result is exactly the same, you can speed up the process by not allocating and rolling saves one by one, but rolling in batches of however many models are standing closest to the enemy until another model with a different save would be next.

 

 

HOWEVER...

 

There are two issues with how "fast dice" is briefly described in the rulebook.

 

For one, it does not account for "multi-wound" models. If you had 4 Ork Nobs (4+ save) standing in front of a Warboss (2+ save) you could actually allocate eight wounds to those Nobs, becuase that is the least amount of wounds they would have to suffer before you would start allocating them to the Warboss. But the "fast dice" rule only mentions "models", not "wounds", so if you only went by this rule, you would only allocate four wounds to them at a time.

 

The other thing is that the "fast dice" paragraph does not account for characters. A character could potentially deflect every single wound allocated to him, so you could not really start allocating wounds to the models with the same save behind him. Because the character might not die from having a wound allocated to him, but you would have to remove the closest model first. So as soon as a character is the closest model, you always have to allocate wounds one by one*.

 

However, if the character with the same save happens to be standing behind two models, you could technically allocate three wounds to them (but not to teh models behind the character). The first two wounds always remove the models standing in front of the character, but he then has the chance to deflect his wound via 'Look Out, Sir!'.

 

*Actually, there is kind of a way to "fast dice" for characters as well. You could allocate as many wounds to the character as he has on his profile (unless tehy are auto kill wounds), because that is the least amount of wounds you would have to allocate to him before he is removed. He could attemot 'Look Out, Sir!' for all of them. If he survives, and still has a number of wounds left. You could allocate as many wounds to him in the next step.

[StrayCatt]

If you and your opponent can't agree on how to allocate wounds based on this discussion, then yes roll off. But IMO, RAI tells you how to do it, and RAW doesn't invalidate that method.

[puffin]

If you and your opponent can't agree on how to allocate wounds based on this discussion, then yes roll off. But IMO, RAI tells you how to do it, and RAW doesn't invalidate that method.

 

I'm still a bit confused. Are you saying LOS! in a multi-save unit happens before or after the character has made his saving throw? And if before, why is it so different from the simplified case of a single-save unit?

[Aidoneus]

See my full, step-by-step explanation here.

 

It matters because a character with a 2+ save can't just stand in front of a unit with worse saves, taking his 2+ against every hit until he fails one, and then distribute it to the squad using Look Out, Sir. When he has a different save than the squad, the model taking the hit with Look Out, Sir uses his own saving throw.

[dswanick]

See my full, step-by-step explanation here.

 

It matters because a character with a 2+ save can't just stand in front of a unit with worse saves, taking his 2+ against every hit until he fails one, and then distribute it to the squad using Look Out, Sir. When he has a different save than the squad, the model taking the hit with Look Out, Sir uses his own saving throw.

The benefit in this situation is that you can have an IC in the front, with a Special weapon directly behind him, and when he has a wound allocated to him you can dsitribute the wound further back to a basic trooper thus protecting both the IC and the Special weapon armed dude.

[Morticon]

It matters because a character with a 2+ save can't just stand in front of a unit with worse saves, taking his 2+ against every hit until he fails one, and then distribute it to the squad using Look Out, Sir. When he has a different save than the squad, the model taking the hit with Look Out, Sir uses his own saving throw.

 

I stand to be corrected, but I think this is exactly how it works?

[DarkGuard]

It matters because a character with a 2+ save can't just stand in front of a unit with worse saves, taking his 2+ against every hit until he fails one, and then distribute it to the squad using Look Out, Sir. When he has a different save than the squad, the model taking the hit with Look Out, Sir uses his own saving throw.

 

I stand to be corrected, but I think this is exactly how it works?

 

It depends on when it's allocated. For same armour save units wounds are allocated after saves are rolled. For mixed save units they're allocated before rolling.

 

So a Sergeant and an Captain in artificer armour are the characters in a Tactical squad. If I have the Captain at the front, then I'm allocating wounds to him via Fast Dice due to mixed save. I'd then take LO,S! then if I want to use, if I choose not to, roll his save and fail I can't LO,S! because the wound's already been allocated and the moment past. If I take LO,S! in this instance, it's taken before armour saves the redistributed hits would be taken on the armour of the model it's distributed onto.

 

Say that the Captain dies, Fast Dice no longer applies as everyone has the same save. I fail 4 and the Sergeant is the second model. In this instance I roll LO,S! after the armour saves as that's when they're allocated onto him.

 

It's a little confusing, but it's how I first read it. It's also how Kirby read it on 3++. Not advertising, but his break down of LO,S! made a lot of sense to me and it might help some others. Just follow the link and scroll down a bit. http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/07/back-to-b...odels-from.html

[Legatus]

I'm still a bit confused. Are you saying LOS! in a multi-save unit happens before or after the character has made his saving throw? And if before, why is it so different from the simplified case of a single-save unit?

If the Character (2+ save) is suffering the wound, he will use his own save against it. But if he successfully rolls for 'Look Out, Sir!' then he is not suffering the wound, another Marine (3+ save) is. And then that Marine will use his save against it. However, if both the character and the Marine had the same 3+ save, then it would make no difference who suffered the wound, you would roll a 3+ save in either case. And because the saves in such a situation would all be identical, you "get rid of" the entire saving rolls before going to the wound allocation process.

 

 

Example: One Character (3+ save) and five Marines (3+ save) take a number of wounds.

 

They all have the same save, so no matter where you allocated a wound, the target player would have to roll a 3+ save. But wounds that are saved don't matter, so before going to the "step by step" allocation process, you simply get rid of all the wounds that don't do anything by rolling all the 3+ saves in advance.

 

 

Now a unit with different saves. The Character has a (2+ save) now, and the five Marine still a (3+ save).

 

Now you cannot just "get rid of" the wounds that would be saved in advance, because you don't know which ones will be saved by a 3+ save and which ones will be saved by a 2+ save. Now you have to determine which wound goes where first, which means now you "allocate" before rolling the saves.

 

 

I.e. "same saves in the unit" --> You roll all the saves first, to get rid of the wounds that are being saved. Now you only have to allocate those that actually hurt someone, which speeds up the allocation process.

 

"different saves in unit" --> Now you cannot speed up the process and get rid of the wounds that are saved, because you don't know which wounds would be saved by which armour. Here you have to determine which wound goes where first, and then save against it.

 

 

 

However, in both cases a Character can use 'Look Out, Sir!' to evade a wound that is being allocated to him. In the first case (same armour) the save for that wound has already been rolled in advance, since it would have been the same save whether it had hit the character or another member of his unit. In the second case (different armour) the saves had not been rolled in advance, because the save is going to be different depending on whether the character can make a successful 'Look Out, Sir!' roll. If he can make the roll, another member of the unit will take the wound and saves against it. If he fails the roll, he has to take the wound and saves against it himself.

[Gaganius]

You guys have made this so overly complicated, when it really isn't so.

 

 

If everyone has the SAME save, then roll saves first and LoS as required afterwards. It doesn't matter that you think it is cheesy that Ghaz gets to transfer all his failed saves to Meganobs, them R DA Rules.

 

 

If the models that are hit have DIFFERENT saves, you need to LoS before you roll saves. You can't have a normal boy with a 6+ save take wounds after Ghaz fails his 2+ save. You can only have the boy jump infront of Ghaz before you roll your save.

 

Lets imagine a situation where Ghaz(2+ save) is standing infront of mob meganobs(2+ save). They get hit by 20 bolter shots. Everyone has a 2+ save. You roll 20 saves. You fail 5. Ghaz is the front model, he would normally take those 5 wounds and die. Since the unit has a common save, he can still LoS afterwards and assign each of those 5 wounds to different mega nobs. Roll up to 5 more dice (if you want), on 2+ pick a nob to take the wound (no additional armour save) otherwise ghaz takes the wound.

 

Lets imagine a situation where Ghaz(2+ save) is standing infront of a mob of boyz (6+ save). They get hit by 20 bolter shots. There are mixed saves. You decide you are going to let Ghaz suck up the bolter shots for the squad. You roll ghaz's saves one at a time (or more if you really want to rush it), he saves the first 10. Then you have a run of bad luck and he fails the next 3. There 7 more bolter shots. At this point you use LoS to try and move the remain 7 shots to boys (this is being done before the save is rolled for those 7 remaining wounds). If you pass LoS a boy must save against the wound, if you fail, ghaz still gets to take an armour save against those wounds. You roll 7 dice and get 6 successful LoS results. 6 boyz get killed by ap5 shots and Ghaz is forced to make one more armour save for the 1 unsuccessful LoS.

 

 

I suspect people are bothered by the fact that LoS can be used to fix bad dice rolls. We all want that character that fails those save rolls to die, it feels like a rip off when he can transfer wounds to another model with the same save afterwards. The joy of killing the opposing Commander quickly becomes bitter disappointment when a couple of redshirts step in front of Kirk at the last minute.

 

Too bad my Klingon friends, too bad.

[Morticon]

:) makes a LOT more sense now that you say Gaganius!

 

Thanks!

 

Lets imagine a situation where Ghaz(2+ save) is standing infront of a mob of boyz (6+ save). They get hit by 20 bolter shots. There are mixed saves. You decide you are going to let Ghaz suck up the bolter shots for the squad. You roll ghaz's saves one at a time (or more if you really want to rush it), he saves the first 10. Then you have a run of bad luck and he fails the next 3. There 7 more bolter shots. At this point you use LoS to try and move the remain 7 shots to boys (this is being done before the save is rolled for those 7 remaining wounds). If you pass LoS a boy must save against the wound, if you fail, ghaz still gets to take an armour save against those wounds. You roll 7 dice and get 6 successful LoS results. 6 boyz get killed by ap5 shots and Ghaz is forced to make one more armour save for the 1 unsuccessful LoS.

 

 

specifically this!

 

I also gotta add that I think people are going to take a long time to get to this conclusion!! But after reading the rules again, its very simple and also makes a lot of thematic sense. And MUCH MUCH better than having the character tank for the rest of the squad by using his better save !

[Morticon]

I have to ask though, if the wound allocation is -> allocate wound, then take saves

 

and

 

LoS is when a character gets allocated a wound, surely in both cases (whether same armour or not) Ghaz does not roll ?

 

It is only when ghaz is number 2 in the squad and you group roll, and he gets a wound? No?

[StrayCatt]

If you do not fast dice the saves, you allocate one dice from each successful to-wound roll, one at a time to the closest model until he is removed as a casualty due to failed available saves. You then do the same for the next closest. If the model getting allocated the successful to-wound roll is a Character (Independant or not) then you can choose to try and re-allocate to another model in the unit within 6" of the Character by taking a LO,S test. If you fail the LO,S test, then you can attempt a normal available save.

 

If you use fast dice the save (because of common saves), you allocate allocate any failed save rolls, i.e. unsaved wounds, to the group with the common save. You then allocate 1 of these unsaved wounds to the closest model until it is removed as a casualty. If the closest model is a Character, then you may attempt to re-allocate through a successful LO,S test. The re-allocation of the individual unsaved wounds from the group to an individual model is not explicitly stated in the rules, but the order of wound allocation is otherwise explicitly established, and it only makes sense to utilize that order for the unsaved wounds.

[Splitwrist]

If you do not fast dice the saves, you allocate one dice from each successful to-wound roll, one at a time to the closest model until he is removed as a casualty due to failed available saves. You then do the same for the next closest. If the model getting allocated the successful to-wound roll is a Character (Independant or not) then you can choose to try and re-allocate to another model in the unit within 6" of the Character by taking a LO,S test. If you fail the LO,S test, then you can attempt a normal available save.

 

If you use fast dice the save (because of common saves), you allocate allocate any failed save rolls, i.e. unsaved wounds, to the group with the common save. You then allocate 1 of these unsaved wounds to the closest model until it is removed as a casualty. If the closest model is a Character, then you may attempt to re-allocate through a successful LO,S test. The re-allocation of the individual unsaved wounds from the group to an individual model is not explicitly stated in the rules, but the order of wound allocation is otherwise explicitly established, and it only makes sense to utilize that order for the unsaved wounds.

 

This is how I understood the rule at first myself but after reading Gaganius' post

 

You guys have made this so overly complicated, when it really isn't so.

 

 

If everyone has the SAME save, then roll saves first and LoS as required afterwards. It doesn't matter that you think it is cheesy that Ghaz gets to transfer all his failed saves to Meganobs, them R DA Rules.

 

 

If the models that are hit have DIFFERENT saves, you need to LoS before you roll saves. You can't have a normal boy with a 6+ save take wounds after Ghaz fails his 2+ save. You can only have the boy jump infront of Ghaz before you roll your save.

 

Lets imagine a situation where Ghaz(2+ save) is standing infront of mob meganobs(2+ save). They get hit by 20 bolter shots. Everyone has a 2+ save. You roll 20 saves. You fail 5. Ghaz is the front model, he would normally take those 5 wounds and die. Since the unit has a common save, he can still LoS afterwards and assign each of those 5 wounds to different mega nobs. Roll up to 5 more dice (if you want), on 2+ pick a nob to take the wound (no additional armour save) otherwise ghaz takes the wound.

 

Lets imagine a situation where Ghaz(2+ save) is standing infront of a mob of boyz (6+ save). They get hit by 20 bolter shots. There are mixed saves. You decide you are going to let Ghaz suck up the bolter shots for the squad. You roll ghaz's saves one at a time (or more if you really want to rush it), he saves the first 10. Then you have a run of bad luck and he fails the next 3. There 7 more bolter shots. At this point you use LoS to try and move the remain 7 shots to boys (this is being done before the save is rolled for those 7 remaining wounds). If you pass LoS a boy must save against the wound, if you fail, ghaz still gets to take an armour save against those wounds. You roll 7 dice and get 6 successful LoS results. 6 boyz get killed by ap5 shots and Ghaz is forced to make one more armour save for the 1 unsuccessful LoS.

 

 

I suspect people are bothered by the fact that LoS can be used to fix bad dice rolls. We all want that character that fails those save rolls to die, it feels like a rip off when he can transfer wounds to another model with the same save afterwards. The joy of killing the opposing Commander quickly becomes bitter disappointment when a couple of redshirts step in front of Kirk at the last minute.

 

Too bad my Klingon friends, too bad.

 

I think I've changed my point of view. I mean if we simply look at it in GW's "cinematic" point of view LOS! is normal unit sees a bullet heading for commander and jumps infront of it to block it. He wouldn't magicly have the commander's armour he would still have his armour. If he and the commander have the same armour then the point is mute. But if the commander is wearing better armour then he may have thrown himself on a round that may not have harmed his commander at all but still had the power to harm him. But he didn't want to take the chance. If that makes sense...