Competitive view on Mech BA in 6th

[Zhukov]

I own a Mech BA army. I'm not willing to spend much money on making BA competitive. So what did I do? I tried to make BA Mech work for 6th too. When you try to make a certain thing look good, you're busy with backwards rationalization, which is usually not good. However, I think I'm onto something.

 

MM Attack Bikes and Preds are still great to support Mech lists, nothing changed here. Good.

 

The main problem is the troops. What to do? You can't really assault out of transports anymore and relying on Las/Plas Razors probably ends up bad as its easier to focus down Razors, they wíll die. So basicly... Trying to ride around ASM units to try and get into assault doesn't work smooth and relying on the Razorbacks to do the damage seems unoptimal too. What's left? Disembarking as soon as possible to start shooting. Can we do this? I believe we can:

 

5 Assault Marines with a Plasmagun + TL-Heavy Bolter Razorback. 135 points.

 

"Zhukov have you gone crazy, plasmagun on ASM?!". Maybe I have, but hear me out: We can take more punishment on our Marines due to FnP, this is huge and transitions to Gets Hot! saves too. Is 1 plasmagun a lot of shooting? No it is not, buy how much did you do with MSU ASM units during the first turns in 5th? Often the oppenents could ignore your ASM sorta in the beginning, I'll be honest, a lot of game my MSU ASM units did very little... Did it matter? No, they still lived and scored in the end, but this stays the same. Would I have liked bolters? Yes, GH's individually will do this better, but they don't have FnP and Attack Bikes ;)

 

To be sure people realise it: Your plasmagun has an 36" range when disembarking from a transport. Surprisingly huge isn't it?

 

"You can't assault after firing a plasmagun!". Boo-hoo. Not a biggy, 1 meltagun didnt change much for assault results now did it? It was mostly used for the de-meching, but you can de-mech more reliably now in general. If remnants of an Ork squad come near, you can still just charge them without firing that plasmagun.

 

For FnP you can have priests, but what about Honor Guard? Honor with Plasmaguns can do the same trick and shoot hard, even more so if you can give them re-rolls with a Libby (divination psychic lore).

 

 

To get the total picture I'll post a list example, which I'll be playtesting soon enough to see if my thoughts are accurate: (mind you, not a list to critic on, purely to show you the concept)

 

Librarian 100

Librarian 100

Honor Guard; 3x plasma, HB-Razor 215

Honor Guard; 3x plasma, HB-Razor 215

2 Attack Bikes 100

2 Attack Bikes 100

2 Attack Bikes 100

5 ASM; Plasma, HB-Razor 135

5 ASM; Plasma, HB-Razor 135

5 ASM; Plasma, HB-Razor 135

5 ASM; Plasma, HB-Razor 135

Las/AC Pred 135

Las/AC Pred 135

Total: 1750

 

What does this in reality often come down to:

-30 Marines with FnP, who disembark and start shooting turn 1. That's a lot more scary having 25 ASM sitting in las/plas Razors doing nothing isn't it? ;)

-Razorback are empty and carry a TL-HB. Are they a high priority to shoot down for the oppenent? Highly unlikely, they are empty and dont contest. Are they useless however? Far from it! You block LoS with, which opens much more tricks this edition regarding 'sniping' opposing models and 'protecting' your own. You can even move in front of the infantry after you shot with them because vehicles can move now in the shooting phase. Alternatively: Enjoy shooting TL-HB's all game long, it adds up, trust me. (I ran them in 5th too)

-Honor Guard getting re-rolls from the Libbies, assuming your psyhic power didnt get blocked by a Farseer or Runepriest. This make those 6 plasmaguns hit hard.

-Attack Bikes enjoying being hard to kill and still being the great Multimelta platform they already were.

-Preds sitting in the back, moving around and shooting stuff, obvious.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

And also, thoughts about how you think Mech BA can or cannot work in 6th? (Don't come with oneliners like "transports die too easily in 6th, Mech sucks!", unless you back it up properly, I explained how I think it cán work and how it does not matter if transports are easier to kill in the long run (which is true), I expect the same in return)

[Leksington]

Thoughts?

My first thought, is a question for you:

Since you don't want to buy much (ie not buy SRs or Fortifications) are you worried about facing Flyer heavy lists?

Are you going to ignore the flyers? Or are you going to try to get them down through volume of fire? Where on your target priority list are they going to be?

 

Any concerns about this 1st turn plasma use when there is about a 50/50 chance the first turn will be night fighting?

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Not to derail you! I think this is an idea, please report back after playtests I'd love to see how it does!

 

But you got me thinking math-hammer...

 

5 Bolter shots firing @MEQ = .625 failed 3+ saves

1 Plasmagun shot firing at MEQ = .625 wounds, .417 failed IF in 5+ cover

 

Of course more shots allows for a more forgiving deviation curve, but math-hammer says 5 bolters=1 plasmagun for killing MEQ. Add ability to wound higher T critters and AP2, honestly 6th Ed is the Age of the Plasmagun.

 

I fully expect to see the old IG mech meltavets transmogrify into footslogging plasmavets. IG can literally spam plasmaguns so hard its ridiculous, and will be useful versus everything but Flyers and the heaviest tanks

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I had further thoughts--

 

So in 5th, MSU based armies took root in the face of cheap, survivable vehicles and the fact that only 1 of 3 mission types were detrimental towards easily eliminated small units.

 

Now in 6th edition, perhaps the MSU will survive but in a mutated form-- reasons justifying this idea being that:

 

1. Only 1 of 6 mission types are now detrimental towards easy Kill Points

 

2. New combos permitting 'point and click' deathstar removal now exist. Popularly, the Pysker Battle Squad 'Weaken Resolve' in conjuction with Blood Angel 'Fear of the Darkness' or nearly the whole Telepathy Discipline.

 

3. Double FOC at high points levels which promote alphastriking, coupled with overall lower coversaves. If you have anything fancy, its going to get primary-targeted...

 

4. MSU armies prevent opponents 'supercomboes' from wreaking havoc on any one given item of value-- you will 'cost' the opponent because he will be over-killing your units, leaving more of your force intact overall. Guided-Doomed DE-dakka just dealt 20 wounds? There was only 5 dudes there anyway....

 

 

 

All in All the direction I feel MSU will go will be the as close to the 5-man Las-Plas of 4th edition as possible, with emphasis on ability to handle 2+ saves through dakka or AP--- already you can see 5-man scoutsnipers w/ML cropping up in various lists all over. 10man SW with double plasma footslogging is another example of excellent ability-to-cost ration. While MSU certainly does have big drawbacks (hard to get that Priest to survive when he's only got a five-man combat squad as protection) I feel future tourny winners will still be infantry and/or flyer spamlists of various types---- Necrons, SW and IG being able to do this excellently.

 

As for me, one Blood Angel unit I will be trying on for size will be the 10-man RAS w/2x plasmagun, but combat squad them with the two guns in one and the Sgt in the other, mutually supporting as they move up the field.

 

And for OP, I certainly agree that if you're going to try Razorback mech, the RAS best choice is the plasmagun.

[Zhukov]

My first thought, is a question for you:

Since you don't want to buy much (ie not buy SRs or Fortifications) are you worried about facing Flyer heavy lists?

Are you going to ignore the flyers? Or are you going to try to get them down through volume of fire? Where on your target priority list are they going to be?

Well with much I mean spending between 200 - 300 euros. Buying 2 Stormravens or something would be an option, but I see some problems atm:

 

-GW might very well release more AA rules in the next months, making fliers potentially a lot worse or at least very hit-or-miss. (depending how much AA people take)

-When you take Stormravens to counter other Fliers, a problem arrises... Their Fliers can shoot down yours as well, can't they? (in most cases at least) It's a plain gamble this way: when the other fliers shoot down yours (easy when you come out of reserve first) then they just countered your counter with the unit you tried to counter...

 

Am I worried about Flyer Heavy Lists you ask. No, not that much for now. They have to start in reserve after all, so can't hit you right away, giving you potentially a couple of turns to focus on his army which he has on the board. But it also has to do with the reason that not many people will field Flier heavy lists I reckon, I think it's not a smart idea to do so as there is no idea yet on how good they will be in a bit as I explained above.

 

So basicly, in most cases I'll try to ignore the Fliers while shooting the rest of his stuff, trying to get an advantage with that and thén switching to hitting fliers, hoping to roll 6's. The fun thing is: If you roll well for a turn, you just shoot fliers down and suddenly they are kinda crap.

 

Fliers as for now are a high-risk, high-reward kind of thing which I refuse to adapt to (yet).

 

I do fear Necron Flier spam btw, however I don't believe we can counter this anyway without getting a gimped list, so just accept it. It's probably broken for the moment.

 

Any concerns about this 1st turn plasma use when there is about a 50/50 chance the first turn will be night fighting?

Not really no, nightfight is weakened and still goes the other way around too. Some searchlights on the razors wouldnt hurt actually, you probably want to take those. (the list is just an example for the concept) You can always not shoot for a turn.

 

 

You also don't have to disembark each time on turn 1 and against some armies you want to rush towards them. (Tau and IG for example) 'We' are faster than ever: The Razors can move 24" now when going flat out, Preds the same and Attack Bikes 30". That's fast :)

[Mezkh]

I think that MSU Razors is pretty dead to be honest. Or perhaps I'm just bored of it. But I don't see the one plasma shot for 115 points being really outstanding - rather meh.

 

I think 4 Melta shots (2x Infernus 2xMelta) in two squads in the one 24" moving Rhino is an interesting option. But not as a spam choice. Supplement it with DC. And a Jump pack unit. Round it out with a tac/scout squad. Then good to go. Varied options is best for BA?

 

Depends on your allies too.

[Morticon]

Hate HB razors- but really really really like this list. You make up for it with everything else.

Id strongly consider jumpy HG though over the razor HG, or maybe one of each? Im not sure, though.

[Zhukov]

Hate HB razors-

Why? ^^

 

I feel like I was the only one using them in 5th edition sometimes haha, I love them. The thing which makes them work for me is simply their low target priority for oppenents. If you can shoot a lot with them, those Heavy Bolters add up. Assuming you can fire with all 6 in a turn: That's 18 rapid firing bolters against T4 on top of my head, or 36 non-rapid firing bolters. They are even able to hurt Av10/Av11 fliers. You don't expect the HB Razors to do much, so everything they do is huge ;)

 

I'm a favour of this concept:

-Shoot with high odds.

-Shoot with really low odds.

Works from a math point of view and psychologically it's really strong too: People hate every Terminator you shoot down with a Heavy Bolter for example. Can you imagine shooting a Vendetta down because you shot it in the back with a Heavy Bolter? ;)

 

but really really really like this list. You make up for it with everything else.

Id strongly consider jumpy HG though over the razor HG, or maybe one of each? Im not sure, though.

Thank you sir. I'm not sure if Jump Packs are needed now with the rapid fire change. It does make it easier to come within actual rapid fire range, but that means the Honor Guard might very well be too much foreward compared the rest of your units. (overextending) Against armies which don't care about your plasma shooting at 24" (the ones who wont come within rapid fire range because they outshoot you), you probably don't want to do this in the first place, you rush towards them.

 

Varied options is best for BA?

I'm not claiming this is the only way, just a way I could think of for now and which I like a lot :tu: (I like MSU Mech armies, it's why I played with it in 5th too)

Feel free to post your own ideas here in this thread regarding Mech BA, just like CitadelArmyGuy did.

 

 

Oh and Morticon; it's still easy to use Mephiston in such a style of list too :) (use 2 Priests instead of the Honor Guard, Mephy instead of the Libbies, insert a 5th ASM unit. Alternatively go for 1 honorguard instead of the 5th ASM and 2nd priest. Oh and this leaves you with enough points to buy a 3rd Pred too.)

I still love Mephiston in 6th too, people go all "he's Ap3 he sucks", but that's just bad thinking. (or well, no thinking even)

[Jorre]

I really like your list!

 

Its very creative. I think I might run something similar until I have finished making new 6th edition models!

 

I would probably still run Las/plas razors over HB razors though.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I don't think this is the right direction to take for Mech BA. One plasma shot at long range and 3 heavy bolter shots for 135 pts just isn't very impressive, not to me at least. I'm personnaly going to try the LR route. Being able to carry 2 combat squads makes them less cost-prohibitive, and they are so big that they can completely hide at least 2 razors. Of course, vulnerable to melta, but I'm banking on the probability that meltas will become less prevalent in the future.

 

Ultimately though, I think mech is probably not where BA is going. Jump + Devs + allies is the future.

[Zhukov]

I don't think this is the right direction to take for Mech BA. One plasma shot at long range and 3 heavy bolter shots for 135 pts just isn't very impressive, not to me at least.

The same could be said about 5th MSU Razors, no? Was 1 meltagun that impressive? Not in my book. Yet it worked. Plasmagun firing from turn 1 onwards pretty much guaranteed is an improvement in my book for MSU. (and bolters in case of other units/armies)

 

MSU units were never that impressive regarding their damage output.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Using a single meltagun wasn't really the right way to MSU, though. You could get so much more out of your squads by using the Razors as actual transports instead of simple firing platforms. Sadly not many picked up on that.

[Morticon]

Hate HB razors-

Why? ^^

 

 

Largely because I play vs. a lot of MEq in my area and the chances of doing unsaved wounds are slim. Against Pallies theyre near useless - i really need the long range 2xS and low AP the other weapons provide.

 

I may simply be a meta thing, but Id rather shoot at something that removes my opponents ability to save rather than spam something that gives him more opps to save/FNP.

[Zhukov]

Using a single meltagun wasn't really the right way to MSU, though. You could get so much more out of your squads by using the Razors as actual transports instead of simple firing platforms. Sadly not many picked up on that.

Dunno, MSU ASM couldn't do much else :/ Unless you invested a lot of points in them, which made you a sad panda when you got de-meched. Expensive, while being slow with a short threat range =/= good.

 

Largely because I play vs. a lot of MEq in my area and the chances of doing unsaved wounds are slim. Against Pallies theyre near useless - i really need the long range 2xS and low AP the other weapons provide.

Aye, but the whole point is of course that TL-HB Razors are cheap. Obviously upgrades Razors would be better, but that makes them way more expensive too.

 

 

I dunno, maybe I just fail really hard without realising it myself... Everybody seems to say TL-HB Razors suck, so I get the idea I must simply be wrong lol.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Dunno, MSU ASM couldn't do much else :/ Unless you invested a lot of points in them, which made you a sad panda when you got de-meched. Expensive, while being slow with a short threat range =/= good.

 

Didn't need to invest massively. Just made sure that I had doule melta and one Priest per 10-15 guys. It was enough to be a threat to most other MSU squads without being such a big investment that I felt compulsed to use when it didn't make sense (i.e. vs Nids, for example).

[Emperors Immortals]

I dunno, maybe I just fail really hard without realising it myself... Everybody seems to say TL-HB Razors suck, so I get the idea I must simply be wrong lol.

 

 

 

No, i agree upgrades are great, i take

TLPG/LC in lists of 1-2 RB, but i take HB with 4-5 RB and especially against eldar/IG/nids.

 

So, there were two of us in 5th ed :tu:

 

p.s- my mates Tau learned to fear them!

[Black Memories]

Major differences between 5th and 6th that are over looked are the range and ability of assault units, specifically as it pertains to their effectiveness against vehicles. Hitting on a rerollable 3+ now is pretty significant and makes it a lot easier to have your own vehicles destroyed in close combat. A unit of angry assault terminators is now truly anti-everything (barring fliers) as opposed to anti-everything-that-doesn't-move-cruising-speed. A unit of assault terminators will have very few answers in your list and will absolutely carve a path through whatever they get a hold of via multi assaults.

 

I really think 6th edition is going to bring counter assault units back into play. In your list you have a bunch of 5 man squads that can be easily killed by small arms fire and a bunch of non-denial or scoring vehicle units. The biggest threat in this list is the guard and the attack bikes. I think having to leave your vehicles puts your assault units are significantly greater risk. Also I don't know how much 6th you've played so far but I will attest to the fact that vehicles, specifically lightly armored ones, are MUCH easier to destroy. I like the jump plasma idea mort suggested, and I think that would do well with screens. I'd personally just use 10 man squads combat squaded inside rhinos with plasma guns. That's a much more effective firing platform and gives you the option and keeping all 10 marines together if need be. 6th seems to be trending away from the MSU lists if for not other reason than how wound allocation now, smaller squads suffer more from it. I've had some success in 6th running a combat squaded tactical squad in a rhino, I'd imagine for assault marines it would work out as well.

 

Not saying the list is bad or you can't make it shine, but it retains the inherent deficiencies that MSU blood angels had (crappy assault) in 5th edition with non of the strengths that prevented you from being out assaulted. In 6th edition people WILL assault you successfully, there's not much you can do about it. The biggest 6th edition strength is tougher attack bikes and rerollable plasma from the guard, which I think are strong, but the rest of the list doesn't compliment those very powerful features. I'd suggest some good play testing.

 

Also worth noting both the LR and Stormraven held up extremely well in my play testing for 5th. Having glancing hits not slow attacking vehicles down is a major boon. The flier rule is also very good. I actually ran a SS librarian with 5 th/ss terminators in the raven, they havent been shot down before they assaulted yet. Fliers will be very tough to deal with if you lack fliers or missile launchers or whatever else.

[Morticon]

ail really hard without realising it myself... Everybody seems to say TL-HB Razors suck, so I get the idea I must simply be wrong lol.

 

Not at all matey. A LOT relies on local area meta. People too often talk from a position of authority, thinking their experiences will be replicated world wide.

After playing in tournies on 4 continents and about 9 different cities ive slowly realised that local meta is huuuugely different. So, while I wouldnt be able to use HB Razors to good effect, you may be in a position to do so!

[Morticon]

Here are some more thoughts (I know its mathhammer- but gets the point across)->

 

4x TLPG/LC or TLAC Razor squads = 620points

5x TLHB Razor squads = 600 points

 

All the Dakka into 1 squad:

 

HB vs.:

 

15 Shots,

13.3 hits after rerolls

8.8 wounds

 

8.8 unsaved wounds vs crons/ork equiv

5.8 unsaved wounds vs crons/ork equiv in cover

2.9 unsaved MEq wounds

1.46 unsaved TEq wounds

 

2.2 Glances on AV11

2.2 Glances + 2.2 Pens on AV10

 

TLAC into 1 squad

 

16 Shots....not even going to to the math here as the starting number is higher with the AC and it has rending and S6.

 

TLPG/LC vs.

 

TLPG 8 Shots -

7 Hits

5.8 unsaved wounds vs MEq/crons/ork equiv

3.8 unsaved wounds vs MEq/crons/ork equiv in cover

3.8 unsaved wounds vs 2+/5++

PLUS

2.6 Hits from lascannons

2.2 Wounds from the lascannon

1.48 in cover/5++

 

1.16 Glances + 2.34 Pens + 0.44 glances from las + 2.2 pens from las vs. AV10

 

 

The only benefit the HB has over this is that they are firing at full capability from turn one.

But, its clear (at least to me) to see that unless you're dealing with a specific horde meta (i deal with marines predominantly) then the HB is definitely not a better choice, even with the cost benefit.

 

I dont have the time now, but It would be interesting to see how the numbers added up with 4x HB razors plus a Baal Pred, vs. 5 TLAC or 5 TLPG, LC razors.

[Thornoo1]

My incredibly cheap 2 cents.

 

With what you are attempting to do how about, 10 ASM, 2 plasma, HB Razor. Combat squad the 2 plasma into 1 squad and reserve the other combat squad to walk on later for back field objective holding.

[appiah4]

I have a gut feeling taht this is not the way to mech in 6e.. How about this?

 

10 Tactical Squad, Combi Plasma, Plasmagun, Multi-Melta, Rhino

10 Tactical Squad, Combi Plasma, Plasmagun, Multi-Melta, Rhino

10 Death Company, 2x Power Fist, Rhino

5 Assault Squad, Plasmagun, Rhino

 

Librarian

 

1 Baal Preadator, Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

1 Baal Preadator, Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

1 Baal Preadator, Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

 

1 Predator, Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

1 Predator, Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

1 Predator, Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons

 

I think AV13 will be huge in 6e..

[Zhukov]

A LOT relies on local area meta.

I'm not a strong believer in this if I'm honest. I never based my list on local meta experiences. Basicly all lists I ever made are based on the theory of facing whatever I can. I never changed lists either because of games I had against locals. Payed off till now, whenever I face stuff outside of my area my lists hold up. Each to his own I guess ;)

 

But, its clear (at least to me) to see that unless you're dealing with a specific horde meta (i deal with marines predominantly) then the HB is definitely not a better choice, even with the cost benefit.

Correct, I'll never try to claim otherwise. You gain something important with it though: More numbers ^_^

[Morticon]

A LOT relies on local area meta.

I'm not a strong believer in this if I'm honest. I never based my list on local meta experiences. Basicly all lists I ever made are based on the theory of facing whatever I can. I never changed lists either because of games I had against locals. Payed off till now, whenever I face stuff outside of my area my lists hold up. Each to his own I guess ;)

 

But, its clear (at least to me) to see that unless you're dealing with a specific horde meta (i deal with marines predominantly) then the HB is definitely not a better choice, even with the cost benefit.

Correct, I'll never try to claim otherwise. You gain something important with it though: More numbers B)

 

Lets VASSAL sometime ! Id be really keen to see how it works! ^_^

[Zhukov]

Lets VASSAL sometime ! Id be really keen to see how it works! :D

Oh god please, not vassal! ;)

 

Tried that program a couple of times against some of the other 3++ guys, but I didn't find the practise worth going through the pain of having little joy in it I'm afraid.

[d@n]

as a spacewolves placer i see BA going all jump army with as many plasma pistols in each unit as possible with loads of drop pod death company with bolters.now the new rage rules are better.