Grey Knights vs Eldar

[spartan249]

Is it just me, or are the Eldar just a tough as hell army to fight with GKs? They were somewhat manageable in 5th thanks to the Psychic Hood and Reinforced Aegis, but now I can't even stop their powers. Throw this in conjunction with some serious Psychic Mastery levels on their Farseers and Eldrad, and I'm feeling a big sense of foreboding in this match-up.

 

Of course, the fact that the Saim-Hann method of guerrilla warfare is basically null and void due to the reduction of durability to vehicles overall and the inability of vehicles to contest or claim helps out considerably, but I feel what they gained in return could turn out to be much more detrimental to the GK opponent.

 

Thoughts on the matter?

[henrywalker]

i tabled 2500 points of eldar today with knights (and wolf allies) won 14 victory points to 3 on purge the alien. even though he had that runes thing where you roll an extra D6 for psychic tests and he had two so i had to roll 4D6 for all psycic tests. they aint so hard

[spartan249]

You and I must be facing vastly different players then, because I know just how harsh the learning curve of Eldar is from first hand experience. I have tabled my fair share of inexperienced Eldar players as well, but those who understand the underlying mechanics and tactics of the Eldar are a completely different beast.

 

I was able to somewhat counter Eldar tricks in the past by denying them the use of their biggest tool (psychic powers), but with that flown out the window and completely new powers available to them ( in large numbers... not comforting), I'm just a little worried about how annoying the Eldar will be.

 

Couple this with the lack of any protection from Perils, and our powers are effectively shut down until the farseers are killed... much easier said then done against experienced Eldar players, especially when they have free rein to their powers.

[Blood Shadow]

how many farseer's does your opponent usually take? you could try sniping his characters with a vindicare or blasting them with plasma cannons on the stormraven, i've only fought Black Templars in 6th so far but Eldar have always been a pest with their psykers, i am very pleased that vehicles cannot contest objectives anymore (except the two special missions) as that was the main way my friend would get a draw instead of me getting a victory

[spartan249]

The problem with trying to hit farseers up is that they're usually hiding in terrain with a unit (Pathfinders seem to be a popular choice, though I've seen Scorpions used as well), and with Fortune now basically unfettered, it's a miracle to get a single wound into the farseer. Doubly so if Eldrad's involved, as his 3+ invul is brutal with rerolls. With other longer range shooty armies, this wouldn't be such an issue as it's easier to focus fire on targets that need to be disabled, but GKs operate most efficiently in the midrange band, which reduces the opportunities for focused fire.

 

The problem is compounded by the annoyingly tough threats that are presented constantly and require attention. The really good Eldar players use the high priority of the Farseer/Eldrad to their advantage by forcing you to make a target priority decision between the Seers and their insanely annoying powers and the imminent threat of fire dragons/dire avengers/harlequins/whatever.

 

I just think this match up is the toughest because a large part of our battlefield prowess is nullified while their integral mechanic is essentially fully functional no matter what you take.

[adamv6]

he had two so i had to roll 4D6 for all psycic tests

 

I didn't think Runes of Warding stacked? Wasn't that FAQ'd a while back?

 

Playing against Eldar I find is all about how good the general is at using his units to maximum effect. I have tabled a few Eldar players, and only recently lost to one who just ran around the board for 3 turns staying 24" from me (he was winning by a single VP, and had 8 guardians left, I had a 10man strike squad, a LRR and a 6man DCA pack).

 

For me the trick with Eldar is target there D weapons and Psykers, after that, you can easily shred through 2 units a turn with combined shooting and CC. I recently dropped a 5man Paladin unit behind some Dire Avengers, and even though they bladestormed me, I merrily marched up next turn and sliced and diced them.

 

As I said on the thread I started here (and others had reinforced my theory) we are probably now the ultimate psyker hunting army in the game.

 

Once and Eldar force has lost their Farseers, its game over I have found.

[Grand Master Tchezzarus]

Yep, they've gone tougher! And flyer could be a pain too in 6th!.... Stormravens and their minstrike missiles might appear more often in army list now...

[Brother Captain Kezef]

How is a 3++ save brual against a Vindicare? One shot with the shieldbreaker round and no more save, ever

[thade]

Two notes for Eldar...

 

First, do NOT use your powers. You don't need them. Really. Appreciate that Aegis and your natural 5+ or better Deny the Witch roll will make you a harder than normal target for Doom. At S4 you'll be wounding on 3s in combat and very few Eldar have a 3+ armor (much less better).

 

Second, keep in mind that each Eldar unit is super super broken at one thing and bad at everything else. More accurately, each Eldar unit has a tiny subset of targets that they are perfect killers of. Banshees are going to destroy your PA; Dire Avengers will tear them apart at range; Striking Scorps will tarpit your own mega melee; etc. Their whole game depends upon their opponent being split up, so they can use their superior mobility to pit their own units against their ideal targets. The counter to this is easy. Turtle up. Deploy everyone together; then weather the storm, picking off units as you can. Keep in mind that any of your units that break from the pack will likely confront whatever they're worst against. When together, your units can support one another and deal with it.

[Blood Shadow]

would the dire avengers be able to overwatch with their bladestorm ability? thankfully my Eldar opponent doesn't have any striking scorpions, though he takes a unit of banshee's, dark reapers and dire avengers every game as well as fire dragons most of the time. It shouldn't really be a problem now but his holofield tanks have always been the biggest annoyance for me

[spartan249]

Deny the Witch and The Aegis does not proactively stop any blessings though, and that's the most annoying part to me. In 5th, the problem was with obscene amounts of holotanks using Saim-Hann tactics that would simply not die (compounded by the overall shorter engagement range of the GK codex). Now, I'm basically facing 5 powers per turn from a full powered list that I will not be able to stop unless by some off chance it's directed at me. Maybe it's just my specific opponents, but the benefits just seem tremendously effective at both offense and defense.

 

The huge nerf to GKs in terms of vastly reduced ability to counter blessing type powers in conjunction with the lack of effective anti-air options is forcing me to take a serious look at how I'm going to compensate... Seems like I'm just going to have to focus on pure firepower to overwhelm Fortune and avoid the Foreboding landmine.

[thade]

Deny the Witch and The Aegis does not proactively stop any blessings though, and that's the most annoying part to me.

Nor should it; that was a core game design decision right there, reducing the number of ways you shut down other people doing things for their own army while increasing the ways you can protect your own. Things like only need 25% for cover and a 6+ Deny the Witch for everybody, etc.

 

Now, I'm basically facing 5 powers per turn from a full powered list that I will not be able to stop unless by some off chance it's directed at me. Maybe it's just my specific opponents, but the benefits just seem tremendously effective at both offense and defense.

What's he buffing his guys with? The re-roll on armor? Is he using the new book powers?

 

The huge nerf to GKs in terms of vastly reduced ability to counter blessing type powers in conjunction with the lack of effective anti-air options is forcing me to take a serious look at how I'm going to compensate... Seems like I'm just going to have to focus on pure firepower to overwhelm Fortune and avoid the Foreboding landmine.

Wait, he has Eldar air? You know that Grav Tanks are Skimmers and not Flyers, right? <3 You are turtling up, making him come to you and not getting your guys spread out? Give us a bat rep and a list. <3 Or at least a summary of each.

[spartan249]

The anti-air bit came out a bit wrong... I meant that in a general way in the context of all comer lists.

 

Fortune is one (He's casting three instances of fortune. 1 with the generic farseer and 2 with Eldrad), and he's keeping just guide and rolling on the table with Eldrad. My current problem really just lies in his ability to cover his ass. Many new eldar players like to use their ability to try to hit on all sides, and that just plays into my hands because each individual unit's weaknesses are easily exploitable. With this cabal of eldar players, Pathfinders are covered by fire dragons just in case my dreadknight tries something funny, and castle tactics are punished with night spinners and unholy amounts of EML/Scatter Laser/Bright Lance fire, which outranges a significant bit of my weaponry. Any long range shots I do throw out have to get past Fortuned cover/invul saves, none of which I can stop or ignore anymore. The rate of attrition favors this cabal quite a bit, and I'm forced to play their game to get a fighting chance at winning the mission.

 

In a strange way, my Iron Hands had a much better time dealing with Eldar due to every single unit possessing long range firepower. When I'm outgunned and without psychic powers, I feel like I'm fighting without an arm.

[Drachnon]

Advantages against eldar in 6th:

The new hull point rules are actually in our favour against eldar. No more 10 shaken results without killing it.

Also until they actually properly errata the spirit stones to increase psychic mastery we're actually pretty ok.

IIRC warlocks have a flamer power which we get a 4+ deny the witch on since we're always of higher psychic mastery level.

Witchblades are now S6 with 2D6 on AP instead of 9+1D6 making it harder for eldar to harm dreads and landraiders in close combat.

Banshees no longer rip terminators apart, in fact I'm not sure any eldar unit can now take on terminators in close combat

No more invunerable saves against perils of the warp.

 

Disadvantages:

Let me just keep this clear eldar did not get better it's just that we got worse.

Psychic hood is now pretty useless.

Shooting has become more powerful in general when compared to close combat which favours eldar.

On the stacking runes of warding I'm guessing they do stack though perhaps an argument can be made that like our Rad + Psystroke grenades that identical equipment on multiple units doesn't automatically stack.

[Zeratil]

Advantages against eldar in 6th:

Also until they actually properly errata the spirit stones to increase psychic mastery we're actually pretty ok.

IIRC warlocks have a flamer power which we get a 4+ deny the witch on since we're always of higher psychic mastery level.

No more invunerable saves against perils of the warp.

 

Spirit Stones already explicitly increase mastery, pg 66 "In older codexes, master level may be written out longhand in the form of a special rule that allows the psyker to use more than one power each turn - the number of powers that can be used per turn is their Mastery Level". This also means Warlocks work exactly like GK squads, they are mastery level 1 as they can use 1 power per player turn. Additionally, Farseers still get their ghosthelm saves against perils, so not getting an invulnerable save doesn't matter to them.

 

I've always found Eldar a little tricky too, but we do have things they find very hard to deal with. Terminators and paladins are hard for them to get rid of, particularly when they're in a Land Raider. Yes you'll lose the land raider to fire dragons, but by then your termies/paladins are close enough that they don't need it any more. Just remember you can't assault out of a wrecked vehicle any more, even an assault vehicle, so if the dragons are closing in, get out sooner rather than later. If he is hiding the farseer in with the Pathfinders there is a trick you can pull. The farseer doesn't gain the same cover benefit as the Pathfinders, as he does not inherit the squad's special pathfinder rule regarding cover, so if the pathfinder+farseer are hunkered down in a ruin, the pathfinders have a 2+ save, while the Farseer has a 3+ coversave (he inherits stealth by being with the squad ofc). Simply declare focus fire on the pathfinder/farseer unit for a coversave of 3+ or worse, and your opponent has to allocate every wound to the farseer.

 

Cheap ass purgation squads are great against eldar, who do not like AP4 Flamers, 140 points nets you a rhino full of dudes who will eat fire dragons or pathfinders for breakfast. The other thing to remember now is that Deep strike is much more forgiving because of the dangerous terrain changes, making it a good way to close the distance without suffering all that annoying long range firepower.

[spartan249]

That's an interesting trick to use... if I can get that close without dying, that is. I'll have to remember that if the occasion comes up.

 

Uh... yeah. Terminators in a Land Raider are probably the worst possible unit you could use against experienced Eldar players, as there are plenty of things flying around on the eldar side that can neutralize it efficiently (DE are better at this, but still).

 

The only real option I'm seeing is to start allying with IG to get access to some extra heavy cheap firepower (Vendetta, Troop heavy weapon teams, and artillery units come to mind) to stack the deck a bit into my favor.

[Zeratil]

Uh... yeah. Terminators in a Land Raider are probably the worst possible unit you could use against experienced Eldar players, as there are plenty of things flying around on the eldar side that can neutralize it efficiently (DE are better at this, but still).

 

I've always had success with it, particularly with paladins, multicharging infantry and Eldar vehicles, pulling my punches and then wiping the unit in the Eldar assault phase so I can consolidate and then shoot and charge another unit, but without knowing the exact sort of lists you're facing it's hard to give advice. I've not fought Eldar in 6th yet, as most of the eldar players have given up in disgust and pulled out other armies, I can see overwatch being an issue, but with their vehicles being much easier to kill, the inability to contest out of a transport, lower cover saves all round making AP4/Rending weapons better, Eldar's rubbish troop choices (pathfinder's aside), the ability to place terrain to suit your army, their lack of AP2 CC weapons, not being able to assault of tranports, no plasma guns on infantry, no AA weapons (much like everyone else) and Eldar's hideously over costed units in general all make up for the gains Eldar have made in 6th.

[thade]

Lists! Give us lists!! Haha. :(

[Gentlemanloser]

If it's not been mentioned yet (skimmed the last couple of posts, soz!), a massive Eldar boost is the new Artilary rules.

 

Fancy using *any* vehicles versus the Eldar?

 

Watch out for the super cheap Vibro Cannon batteries that are something like 13 T7 wounds to remove totally. Yup. Around (can't be bothered to work out the exact amounts, I'll leave that to some one with the new BRB and the old Eldar dex! :() 13 T7 wounds.

 

And they can take three 'batteries' of them.

 

Which will glance anything to death very quickly.

 

Banshees no longer rip terminators apart, in fact I'm not sure any eldar unit can now take on terminators in close combat

 

Only the Avatar, Wraithlords and the SS Exarch come to mind.

 

Oh and that guy (Kharandaras?) is a beast in CC.

[thade]

The Eldar's real strength is in mobility, and their real mobility comes from their hard-to-kill transports. Each of which weighs in around the neighborhood of 100 points. Make note of what transport carries what unit type and selectively cripple ones that would otherwise reduce your own mobility. For instance, are you fielding a LR? Pick out the transport with the Fire Dragons in it and glance that sucker to death: then your LR can move much more freely. :)

[Gentlemanloser]

Thier Strength comes from Eldrad, Runes of Warding, Firedragons, Dark Reapers (Stupid, stuipd Exarch...) and now Artilary, Karandaras and to top it;

 

Terminator killing Banshee's!!

 

Simple model your Banshee's with Power Axes. S4, I10, AP2 attacks on the charge? :)

 

Oh and Warp Spiders. :jaw: Loads of S6 shots will eat most vehicles thorugh Hull Point losses from Glances.

 

Eldar aren't a bad Dex. They might need to adapt a little though.

 

Dark Eldar on the other hand. Sorry guys, GW hit you with the nerfbat. Hard. /comfort

[Cmdr Shepard]

Thier Strength comes from Eldrad, Runes of Warding, Firedragons, Dark Reapers (Stupid, stuipd Exarch...) and now Artilary, Karandaras and to top it;

 

Terminator killing Banshee's!!

 

Simple model your Banshee's with Power Axes. S4, I10, AP2 attacks on the charge? ;)

 

Oh and Warp Spiders. ;) Loads of S6 shots will eat most vehicles thorugh Hull Point losses from Glances.

 

Eldar aren't a bad Dex. They might need to adapt a little though.

 

Dark Eldar on the other hand. Sorry guys, GW hit you with the nerfbat. Hard. /comfort

 

We'll have to see if the I1 coming from the unwielding weapon can be bypassed via special rules. It's like GK librarian power. You have I10 before striking then your "unwielding" weapon will reduce it to I1.

In other words GK Librarian power and Bansees' special rule change the base I value, then when you are about to strike "unwielding" (is it its name, right?) places you at I1

[thade]

The whole "reduced to I1" thing isn't new, and it's always taking priority over other kinds of Initiative buffs in the past. Don't go looking for "new holes" to try and break these old problems anew. <3 Unwieldy = I1. Just go with it.

[Cmdr Shepard]

The whole "reduced to I1" thing isn't new, and it's always taking priority over other kinds of Initiative buffs in the past. Don't go looking for "new holes" to try and break these old problems anew. <3 Unwieldy = I1. Just go with it.

Nice to see I'm not the only one to have this opinion.

I think trying to bring unwielding to I10 via special rule is not very fair. As you said "reduced to I1 thing" always took priority.

[Gentlemanloser]

Check the OR thread. ;)

 

With the new priority for modifiers in the BRB, Codex modifiers take precedence over BRB ones.

 

Oh... Quickening with NDH. ;)

 

Back on topic,

 

Autarch with Banshee Mask, Jetbike and Power Axe. Too much? ;) Add in Enchance as well!