Updating the Foundings Time Line

[Dosjetka]

For those of you who weren't aware of the existence of the Liber Astartes Time Line, you may find it in the stickied post at the top of the LA sub-forum, along side the Liber Astartes Guide and other useful threads.

 

The Foundings Time Line hasn't been updated since 2008 and with all of the new material and dates in the recent Badab War books and other releases, I think it's a good idea to get this table updated.

 

And here it is:

Founding Dates

FoundingRough EstimateChinchillapimpReason2ndM31.021 021.M31 Guilliman’s Second Founding3rd M32 First Day 001.M32 -4th Early M32 200.M32 -5th Mid M32 400.M32 -6th Mid-Late M32 600.M32 -7th Late M32 700.M32 -8th Early M33 910.M32 Potentially in response to the 3rd Black Crusade in 909.M329th Earl-Mid M33 100.M33 -10th Mid M33 221.M33 221.M33 Founding of the Howling Griffons11th Late M33 400.M33 -12th Late M33/Early M34 600.M33 -13th Early M34 800.M33 -14th Mid M34 005.M34 Potentially in response to the 4th Black Crusade in 001.M3415th Mid-Late M34 200.M34 -16th Late M34 500.M34 -17th Early M35 800.M34 -18th Early-Mid M35 200.M35 -19th Mid M35 598.M35Founding of the Astral Claws20th Late M35 800.M35 -21st M36 100.M36 Cursed Founding - Immediately prior to Age of Apostasy22nd M37 500.M36 Potentially in response to the Age of Apostasy in first half of M3623rd M38000.M38 WD248 suggests and potentially in response to Black Crusades at the end of M3724th M39 500.M39 -25th M40 700.M40WD248 suggests and potentially in response to Necron and Dark Eldar activity in middle of M4026th M41.738 738.M41-

Now, what I need from the fellow Liberites is help to find Founding dates (be they approximate or precise) and to post their findings below. I will update the Time Line accordingly and if there is something to be debated upon, I shall ask the community's opinion.

 

Important Note: I am in no way complaining about this time line not being updated as I know that Ferrata hasn't been around for some time and that other Mods have more than enough things to do!

 

Cheers,

 

Ludovic

[Ecritter]

Since I've never used this timeline since I found it to be highly non-canon and was told that the orginator simply spread out the Foundings in a reasonable manner .... I agree it needs updating. I use date from the Lexicanium when deciding on Founding dates myself.

[Octavulg]

From the Badab War books (a cursory skim. More may be buried in deeper parts).

 

The 8th is mid M-34 (IA 10, p 64)

 

The 10th is mid-M35 (IA 9, p 54). The Astral Claws were part of this founding. "Created during the dark times of the Nova Terra Interregnum. Few records remain surrounding this founding, which was believed to be created to try to counteract the rapid erosion and contraction of the Imperium's borders during the period.

 

(You know, Forge World, I don't know what you paid that guy, but I would have edited it pretty cheap :()

 

The Exorcists' founding information was classified at their founding by the Inquisition, suggesting a possible variety of sources for the Dark Founding's lack of information.

 

The Cursed Founding is "on the cusp of" M36 (IA 9, p 106).

 

23rd founding is the latter part of M37 (IA 9, p 74).

23rd founding is in early M-38 (IA 10, p 132). "Sentinel Founding, created to aid the Imperium's defences in numerous ill-starred and vulnerable regions of the galaxy."

 

(Remember that editing offer, FW?)

 

25th founding is in the latter half of M40 (IA 9, p 81).

 

It's kind of impressive how one author can reduce an already messy part of the fluff to absolute incoherence in just two books.

 

The Howling Griffons bit in the original table is from C:CSM 3e Rev, p 63. It should really be 220 or 221, not just 221.

 

The 10th founding bit about the Astral Claws should be blatantly ignored, IMO, since it would mean the first nine foundings stretched over 3000 years and the next eleven were concentrated in slightly less than 500. Even if you double the amount due to the Interregnum, it simply doesn't work.

[Octavulg]

Note that despite repeated claims to the contrary on various wikis, page 8 of C: UM doesn't say a damn THING about the Dark Founding being in M36.

 

The Dark Hunters are listed in C:SM 5e as being founded during the "dark days of the Occlusiad", and the Occlusiad War is in BRB 5e at p. 125 from 550-560 M37.

[Octavulg]

Also worth noting - C:SM 3e mentions that there are between 969 and 1021 Chapters extant.

 

C: GK apparently mentions that barely 400 chapters were created in the 2nd Founding. Someone should find a page reference.

 

Founding Dates

FoundingDateOther Information2nd021.M31 Date Citation Needed. The Legions are broken up and just over 400 chapters are created (citation needed). 3rd001.M32 Founded on the first day of M32 (citation needed). 4th E: Mid-Late M32 - 5th E: Early M33 - 6th E: Mid-Late M33 -7th E: Early M34 -8th E: About 400.M34 Mid-M34 per IA 10, p 64. However, this will compress the next several foundings incredibly. Since this period is the Nova Terra Interregnum, it is possible that both the Ur-Council and the High Lords created legitimate foundings in this period.9th E: About 525.M34 -10th E: About 650.M34 IA 9, p 54 says mid-M35. This compresses the next eleven foundings into just under 500 years (vs. 3000 for the previous seven). This has thus been completely ignored. 11th E: About 775.M35 - 12th E: About 900.M35 -13th E: About 050.M35 - 14th E: About 175.M35 - 15th E: About 300.M35 - 16th E: About 425.M35 - 17th E: About 550.M35 - 18th E: About 675.M35 - 19th E: About 800.M35 - 20th E: About 900.M35 - 21st About 001.M36 [/u] "On the cusp of M36" (IA 9, p 106). Cursed Founding. Largest founding since the Second. 22nd About 555.M37 The Dark Hunters are described as founded in the "dark days of the Occlusiad" (C:SM 5e, p 26). The Occlusiad War is from 550.M37 to 560.M37 (BRB 5e, 125). Their founding is not specifically mentioned, but there's only one option. 23rdLate M37/Early M38 Late M37 per IA 9 p 74, Early M38 per IA 10 p 132. "The Sentinel Founding, created to aid the Imperium's defences in numerous ill-starred and vulnerable regions of the galaxy (IA 10, p 132)."24th E: M39 - 25th E: M40 Establishes chapter number 888. 26th738.M41Citation needed.UnknownAbout 220.M33220 or 221.M33 is the founding of the Howling Griffons (C:CSM 3e Rev, p 63).

[Ferrus Manus]

As a note, I'm sure I read somewhere recently(ish) that it had been suggested that foundings don't just happen instantly and that it was possible for several chapters to be founded a century or two apart and still be considered to be created during the same founding.

[Octavulg]

Decades, maybe. Centuries'd make things even more confused and strange than they already are.

 

Anyone got any more confirmed dates? :P

[Ferrus Manus]

Latest marine codex:

 

'Sable Swords

Founded in the latter years of M41.'

 

So that would confirm(ish) the approximate date of the 26th founding

[CantonWC]

Just to chime in, I found the date given in the Badab War books (10th mid-M35) incredibly bizarre. We know 21st was beginning of M36, so I thought at first that meant one founding every 100 years, but it's only now that I realize it actually means one founding about every 50 years, which makes no sense at all. Well, I mean you'd think they would want to space out the foundings more than that.

 

Oh and I'm back. Probably. Maybe.

[Lord Scytha]

Also worth noting - C:SM 3e mentions that there are between 969 and 1021 Chapters extant.

 

C: GK apparently mentions that barely 400 chapters were created in the 2nd Founding. Someone should find a page reference.

 

Founding Dates

FoundingDateOther Information2nd021.M31 Date Citation Needed. The Legions are broken up and just over 400 chapters are created (citation needed). 3rd001.M32 Founded on the first day of M32 (citation needed). 4th E: Mid-Late M32 - 5th E: Early M33 - 6th E: Mid-Late M33 -7th E: Early M34 -8th E: About 400.M34 Mid-M34 per IA 10, p 64. However, this will compress the next several foundings incredibly. Since this period is the Nova Terra Interregnum, it is possible that both the Ur-Council and the High Lords created legitimate foundings in this period.9th E: About 525.M34 -10th E: About 650.M34 IA 9, p 54 says mid-M35. This compresses the next eleven foundings into just under 500 years (vs. 3000 for the previous seven). This has thus been completely ignored. 11th E: About 775.M35 - 12th E: About 900.M35 -13th E: About 050.M35 - 14th E: About 175.M35 - 15th E: About 300.M35 - 16th E: About 425.M35 - 17th E: About 550.M35 - 18th E: About 675.M35 - 19th E: About 800.M35 - 20th E: About 900.M35 - 21st About 001.M36 [/u] "On the cusp of M36" (IA 9, p 106). Cursed Founding. Largest founding since the Second. 22nd About 555.M37 The Dark Hunters are described as founded in the "dark days of the Occlusiad" (C:SM 5e, p 26). The Occlusiad War is from 550.M37 to 560.M37 (BRB 5e, 125). Their founding is not specifically mentioned, but there's only one option. 23rdLate M37/Early M38 Late M37 per IA 9 p 74, Early M38 per IA 10 p 132. "The Sentinel Founding, created to aid the Imperium's defences in numerous ill-starred and vulnerable regions of the galaxy (IA 10, p 132)."24th E: M39 - 25th E: M40 Establishes chapter number 888. 26th738.M41Citation needed.UnknownAbout 220.M33220 or 221.M33 is the founding of the Howling Griffons (C:CSM 3e Rev, p 63).

 

This time line doesn't make any sense.

It means that before M35 there were about two foundings per millennia. Then during M35 it was about one founding per century. And after M35 there have been about one founding per millennia.

But the the old time line had the same problem.

It doesn't really matter that any new fluff have moved the founding for example the 13th and the 21st forward one milennium. It still mashes more than a third of all foundings inside a thousand years.

[Octavulg]

M34/M35 was the Interregnum. AKA: two Imperiums. Lots of small foundings makes a certain degree of sense. A combination of replenishing losses and both Imperiums trying to shore up their numbers through Space Marines.

 

It's still stupid, but not as stupid as it could be. Though, really, it would have been better if they moved the Cursed Founding to M37 or even M38 (or made it the 13th, as I suspect it might have once been intended to be). That's actually where the real problem crops up. Since the 21st is in M36, that means the next five HAVE to happen over five thousand years, and the previous twenty HAVE to happen in four thousand.

 

EDIT: The source for the 13th Founding being M36 is the Armageddon Website. A date on a note to an Inquisitor. The Armageddon supporting documentation also brought us unrecorded Second Founding successors (which was not normal at the time), and the Celebrants and Celestial Lions getting their founding dates switched. I think I'll ignore this one.

[Lord Scytha]

Maybe it's not that stupid when you take the Interregnum in account but considering that a founding takes at least a few decades getting one every hundred year still seems excessive (or every two hundred years if you buy that both sides founded equally much). Not to mention that if it was done to replenish losses then chapters and space marines must have been destroyed on a magnitude unrivalled since the HH. And you think it would get more ink if that had happened than it has. (It would at least warranted equal spotlight time with the Age of Apostaty even with the creation of the SOB in consideration)

 

So I'm think I'm still going with unforgivable stupid. Especially considering that since it all probably stems from sloppy writing from GW side and not from any clever plan. You'd think that with the latest batch of retcons they could have fixed that too at the same time.

 

I just wish they could settled on something since I'm currently working on a DIY from the 13th founding and atm that chapter's time line is all over the place.

[Octavulg]

So I'm think I'm still going with unforgivable stupid. Especially considering that since it all probably stems from sloppy writing from GW side and not from any clever plan. You'd think that with the latest batch of retcons they could have fixed that too at the same time.

 

Oh, its still unforgivably stupid. It's just not AS bad if the Interregnum solution is taken into account.

 

I just wish they could settled on something since I'm currently working on a DIY from the 13th founding and atm that chapter's time line is all over the place.

 

Whatever do you mean? It's concretely right at the beginning of M36. Y'know, in a place that makes all subsequent foundings not make sense.

[Octavulg]

OK. I've now looked through C:SM 3e, C:SM 4e, C:SM 5e, IA 9, IA 10, the BRB 3e, the BRB 4e, the BRB 5e, and the IA series.

 

Anything else anyone can think of that might provide some enlightenment?

 

Founding Dates

FoundingDate (E: Estimated, P: Possibly) Other Information2nd021.M31 Date Citation Needed. Seven years after the death of Horus (C:SM 5e, p 14). The Legions are broken up and just over 400 chapters are created (C: GK, p 7). 3rd001.M32 Founded on the first day of M32 (citation needed). 4th P: 888.M32 IA 10 p 114 suggests a possible founding during the Astropath Wars, which took place in 888.M32 (BRB 5e p 124). 5thP: About 220.M33220 or 221.M33 is the founding of the Howling Griffons (C:CSM 3e Rev, p 63). The number is not recorded.6th E: Mid-Late M33 -7th E: Early M34 -8th E: About 400.M34 Mid-M34 per IA 10, p 64. However, this will compress the next several foundings incredibly. Since this period is the Nova Terra Interregnum, it is possible that both the Ur-Council and the High Lords created legitimate foundings in this period.9th E: About 525.M34 -10th E: About 650.M34 IA 9, p 54 says mid-M35. This compresses the next eleven foundings into just under 500 years (vs. 3000 for the previous seven). This has thus been completely ignored. 11th E: About 775.M34 - 12th E: About 900.M34 -13th E: About 050.M35 The Armageddon 3 Website included a communique referring to the Exorcists in training following their founding in 013.M36. This has been ignored, because that would mean the 13th Founding within a century of the 21st, and I have limits. IA 10 p 124 claims late M35/early M36, which carries the same problem. 14th E: About 175.M35 - 15th E: About 300.M35 -16th E: About 425.M35 -17th E: About 550.M35 -18th E: About 675.M35 -19th E: About 800.M35 - 20th E: About 900.M35 -21st About 001.M36 [/u] "On the cusp of M36" (IA 9, p 106). Cursed Founding. Largest founding since the Second. 22nd About 555.M37 The Dark Hunters are described as founded in the "dark days of the Occlusiad" (C:SM 5e, p 26). The Occlusiad War is from 550.M37 to 560.M37 (BRB 5e, 125). Their founding is not specifically mentioned, but there's only one option. 23rdLate M37/Early M38 Late M37 per IA 9 p 74, Early M38 per IA 10 p 132. "The Sentinel Founding, created to aid the Imperium's defences in numerous ill-starred and vulnerable regions of the galaxy (IA 10, p 132)."24th E: M39 - 25th E: M40 Establishes chapter number 888 (WD 98 UK p 38). 26th738.M41Citation needed.

 

Note: estimated dates are simply placed in a more-or-less evenly spaced position on the timeline. Possible dates are based on specific dates within actual fluff that aren't assigned to a particular founding.

[Hrvat]

The first two dates exist in the Timeline printed in the Final Liberation Game Manual back in 1998(?).

[Lord Scytha]

Whatever do you mean? It's concretely right at the beginning of M36. Y'know, in a place that makes all subsequent foundings not make sense.

 

This made me laugh hysterically... ;) Made my day.

[Octavulg]

Hrvat

 

Page numbers?

 

Lord Scytha

 

:whistling:

[Hrvat]

You will have to wait that a bit I have to find the box first, it's been more than a decade since I put that thing away.

[Lord Scytha]

Here is a new pickle when it comes to trying to figuring out how come there are almost ten foundings in a single millennia.

According to the first IA book it takes the AdMech 55 years to grow 1000 healthy sets of organs for implantation in initiates (pg. 6). and according to the chart over stages in space marine initiation (ibid. pg. 8) the first phase happens when an initiate is between 10 and 14 years and the last phase when he is between 16-18. That means that from the second the High Lords okay a founding it will take a minimum of about 60 years before there exist a thousand new space marines to call a chapter.

Assuming then that a chapter spends at least a few decades training (which is the logical expectation) before becoming operational then a founding takes closer to a century. And even if the chapter is off fighting the second after the last space marine gets out of surgery it is still going to take up to seventy years.

 

So those foundings in m35/36 (depending on the old or retconned time line) is no longer stupid. They are completely illogical.

Especially if you take into account that it is already established that even if two chapters' founding dates differ with a few decades they'll still count as belonging to the same founding. Because that would mean what we really have is a single founding that stretches continuously across a thousand years.

[Andrew J]

My god this takes the GW openended ambiguity to a whole new level. What should you believe and what should you throw out? I try to stick with early or late foundings as that is at least close to the either the HH or current time.

[Octavulg]

Where does the "Third Founding on the first day of the new millenium" bit come from?

 

A number of sources mention the Avenging Sons as being 19th Founding, and that as being M36. Anyone know where it says that?

 

Less than 10% of chapters are White Scars in origin - 64, IA 10.

 

Possible justifications for the insanely compressed foundings: "normal" foundings alongside the 13th and 21st, the Nova Terra Interregnum causing multiple foundings, the chaos amongst the High Lords causing multiple foundings, massive casualties causing multiple foundings.

 

At some point I'll likely do a "100% accordance" version to go with this, the "rational" version. But this seems to be working for now.

 

Founding Dates

FoundingDate (E: Estimated, P: Possibly) Other Information2nd021.M31 Date is given as 021.M31 in the Final Liberation Game Manual, p ???. Seven years after the death of Horus (C:SM 5e, p 14), which was in 014.M31 per WD 161UK, p ???. The Legions are broken up and just over 400 chapters are created (C: GK, p 7). 3rd001.M32 Founded on the first day of M32 (Citation needed). 4th P: 888.M32 IA 10 p 114 suggests a possible founding during the Astropath Wars, which took place in 888.M32 (BRB 5e p 124). 5thP: About 220.M33220 or 221.M33 is the founding of the Howling Griffons (C:CSM 3e Rev, p 63). The number is not recorded.6th E: Mid-Late M33 -7th E: Early M34 -8th E: About 400.M34 Mid-M34 per IA 10, p 64. However, this will compress the next several foundings incredibly. Since this period is the Nova Terra Interregnum, it is possible that both the Ur-Council and the High Lords created legitimate foundings in this period.9th E: About 525.M34 -10th E: About 650.M34 IA 9, p 54 says mid-M35. This compresses the next eleven foundings into just under 500 years (vs. 3000 for the previous seven). This has thus been completely ignored. 11th E: About 775.M34 - 12th E: About 900.M34 -13th E: About 050.M35 This is the only founding for which the Adeptus Mechanicus does not possess original geneseed records (C:UM p 8). The Armageddon 3 Website included a communique from 013.M36 referring to the Exorcists as being in training following their founding. This has been ignored, because that would mean the 13th Founding within a century of the 21st, and I have limits. IA 10 p 124 seems to claim late M35/early M36, which carries the same problem. The highly-flawed IA: Emperor's Shield claims a founding date of M40 for the Exorcists. 14th E: About 175.M35 - 15th E: About 300.M35 - 16th E: About 425.M35 - 17th E: About 550.M35 - 18th E: About 675.M35 -19th E: About 800.M35 - 20th E: About 900.M35 -21st Early M36 [/u] "On the cusp of M36" (IA 9, p 106). Cursed Founding. Largest founding since the Second (citation needed). Took place before the Age of Apostasy, which began within the first century or two of M36.22nd About 555.M37 The Dark Hunters are described as founded in the "dark days of the Occlusiad" (C:SM 5e, p 26). The Occlusiad War is from 550.M37 to 560.M37 (BRB 5e, 125). Their founding is not specifically mentioned, but there's only one option. 23rdLate M37/Early M38 Late M37 per IA 9 p 74, Early M38 per IA 10 p 132. "The Sentinel Founding, created to aid the Imperium's defences in numerous ill-starred and vulnerable regions of the galaxy (IA 10, p 132)." "Generally believed to have been one of a series of linked foundings around this period designed to repair the power and reach of the Imperium's Space Marine forces which had suffered considerable losses in the preceding millenia."24th E: M39 - 25th M40, latter half Date per IA 9 p 94. Establishes chapter number 888 (WD 98 UK p 38). 26th738.M41Citation needed.

 

Note: estimated dates are simply placed in a more-or-less evenly spaced position on the timeline. Possible dates are based on specific dates within actual fluff that aren't assigned to a particular founding.

[Hrvat]

My memory has played tricks with me, the manual does not mention the 3rd founding but it mentiones the 26th

 

Final Liberation game manual

 

pg. 76

021/m31: Roboute Guilliman writes the Codex Astarts. The Space Marine Legions are divided into autonomous Chapters. The Grey Knights are created, a second founding chapter with no antecendants.

 

pg. 77

738/m41: 26th Founding of the Space Marines

[Marshal Rohr]

You could justify the huge number of foundings in so short a time as being part of the turmoil and expansion that was the mid-Imperium. Also we don't know WHERE chapters are created so if a different Forge World was responsible for each one that could further explain the number. The whole thing could've been a large and organized push to expand the number of space marines from the 400,000-500,000 to 700,000-800,000 range over a short period of time. This could further be explained by the Age of Apostasy causing frequency to drop as the Imperium reorganized to spread power again.

[Lord Scytha]

You could justify the huge number of foundings in so short a time as being part of the turmoil and expansion that was the mid-Imperium. Also we don't know WHERE chapters are created so if a different Forge World was responsible for each one that could further explain the number. The whole thing could've been a large and organized push to expand the number of space marines from the 400,000-500,000 to 700,000-800,000 range over a short period of time. This could further be explained by the Age of Apostasy causing frequency to drop as the Imperium reorganized to spread power again.

 

The only problem with that explanation is the 23th (The Sentinel) founding clearly states that it happened to bring the numbers back up after a huge decline in the number of chapters caused by both the 21st founding and the AoA.

Not to mention that 1. only the High Lords can initiate a founding (so the Nova terra guys couldn't found their own SM's even if they had wanted to). 2. The gene-seed in 90% of the cases comes from Mars so even if different Forge Worlds did the actual work (quite probably tbh) the raw material they used was given to them from Mars.

 

Still, you do mobilize during a crisis so there is some merit to that theory.

Except that in the m40/41 the Imperium have faced equal or even greater turmoil yet you still only have around half a dozen founding in 4000 years after the 21st.

 

And that doesn't take into account the fact that it takes at least 60 years to found a chapter. So you basically have a Tech-Priest going:"That lot is getting done tomorrow while those over there won't be done until next Thursday. So we're calling the first ones the 15th founding and the ones next week for 16th"

 

Frankly, this is a complete screw up done by GW in the first place. No theories or fudging we can come up with will fix it because the only thing that will fix it is a complete retcon by GW. Hopefully supervised by their accounts department so that we can rest assured that it is done by people understanding arithmetic. (21 doesn't come after 13 so if you put them with in a thousand years of each other numbers 14 to 20 will still come between them even if you call those dates unknown.)

[Marshal Rohr]

Before the EoT campaign GW spoke of a new massive founding of the Imperium won.