SM Bikers in 6th

[Cmdr Shepard]

Greetings Battle Brothers,

6th Edition increased my interest for SM Bikers units. I decided to write a quick list I posted in the proper section ( http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=255852 ) but I think the impact of bikers units in 6th edition will be relevant to the point to "warrant" a detailed tactical analysis.

 

What's your tactical opinion on them? What tactics should we deploy? How can we make a competitive bikers army or simply a bikers unit in an army?

 

Personally I think the inclusion of allies will allow us to counter one of the most releveant limitations bikers armies had in 5th edition: the low count of models. Now IG allies will allow our bikers to have a solid number of scoring models to support them.

 

Feel free to add your tactical opinion, Battle Brothers.

[Koremu]

Things that are now better about Bikes:

 

Toughness 5. With this being counted for the purposes of Instant Death, it means you need a Demolisher Cannon to take it away. Biker Captains can be T5, 2+, 3++, 5+++ and Power Fists no longer take away FNP

 

Twin-Linked Bolters. Overwatch fire. That low model count isn't as problematic as it seems.

 

Wound Allocation shenanigans with Attack Bikes

[Cmdr Shepard]

Things that are now better about Bikes:

 

Toughness 5. With this being counted for the purposes of Instant Death, it means you need a Demolisher Cannon to take it away. Biker Captains can be T5, 2+, 3++, 5+++ and Power Fists no longer take away FNP

 

Twin-Linked Bolters. Overwatch fire. That low model count isn't as problematic as it seems.

 

Wound Allocation shenanigans with Attack Bikes

Captain on Bike is one of the best duelist in the game, in my opinion.

 

What unit size do you suggest? I thought about 6 bikes (with 2 melta guns) and attack bike with multimelts as "standard unit" size.

[Koremu]

Things that are now better about Bikes:

 

Toughness 5. With this being counted for the purposes of Instant Death, it means you need a Demolisher Cannon to take it away. Biker Captains can be T5, 2+, 3++, 5+++ and Power Fists no longer take away FNP

 

Twin-Linked Bolters. Overwatch fire. That low model count isn't as problematic as it seems.

 

Wound Allocation shenanigans with Attack Bikes

Captain on Bike is one of the best duelist in the game, in my opinion.

 

What unit size do you suggest? I thought about 6 bikes (with 2 melta guns) and attack bike with multimelts as "standard unit" size.

I'd take the full 10 man unit

 

or a Command Squad of course.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Things that are now better about Bikes:

 

Toughness 5. With this being counted for the purposes of Instant Death, it means you need a Demolisher Cannon to take it away. Biker Captains can be T5, 2+, 3++, 5+++ and Power Fists no longer take away FNP

 

Twin-Linked Bolters. Overwatch fire. That low model count isn't as problematic as it seems.

 

Wound Allocation shenanigans with Attack Bikes

Captain on Bike is one of the best duelist in the game, in my opinion.

 

What unit size do you suggest? I thought about 6 bikes (with 2 melta guns) and attack bike with multimelts as "standard unit" size.

I'd take the full 10 man unit

 

or a Command Squad of course.

 

Full unit was my orginal thought then I had some "issue" with points limit ;)

 

How many bikers units do you suggest, for example, at 2000 pts?

[Reinholt]

A couple of thoughts:

 

- Given that you almost always want an attack bike, taking 10 men allows you to combat squad the bikes, which is valuable.

 

- The improved toughness for instant death really only matters to characters on bikes, but T5 bikes are plenty tough.

 

- I still can't see an argument for anything other than a multi-melta attack bike.

 

- However, I can see an argument for changing up the weapons in the bike squad; I'm no longer so sure that double melta is the way to go, as plasma improves when cover saves are more rare, or you can focus fire.

 

Thus, I'm going to be tinkering with the following bike squad:

 

8 bikes + 1 AB w/mm, 2 plasma guns, sergeant with meltabombs and power sword.

[Cmdr Shepard]

A couple of thoughts:

 

- Given that you almost always want an attack bike, taking 10 men allows you to combat squad the bikes, which is valuable.

 

- The improved toughness for instant death really only matters to characters on bikes, but T5 bikes are plenty tough.

 

- I still can't see an argument for anything other than a multi-melta attack bike.

 

- However, I can see an argument for changing up the weapons in the bike squad; I'm no longer so sure that double melta is the way to go, as plasma improves when cover saves are more rare, or you can focus fire.

 

Thus, I'm going to be tinkering with the following bike squad:

 

8 bikes + 1 AB w/mm, 2 plasma guns, sergeant with meltabombs and power sword.

 

Good points but plasma guns won't help you dealing with high AV vehicles. I'm aware we will see less vehicles than before due to the general reaction to new vehicle rules but if you run into a Dread you have only your MM wich is one shot per turn. Plasma guns will need 5+ to glance it, unless you "outmaneuver" it and aim at the rear armor. What about 1 plasma+ 1 melta? Too less "focus" on the special weapons roles?

 

Anyway since I plan to include 2 stormtalons I should have a nice amount of Assault Cannon shots. I wanted to filed an allied IG detachment for more troops and a vendetta but going for 8 bikes+ Attack Bike (which seems to be a very good idea) I think I won't have many points available for them.

 

How many Bikers units do you suggest at 2000 pts?

[Rage]

Surely you'll be taking MM Attack Bikes, so the lack of MG's on the bike squads shouldn't be an issue. Think the most important thing for bike armies will be reducing the transports quickly and at range, this is where I think plasma will have its place due to glancing death and the +1 if you get lucky and penetrate.. Also ties in with the 24" range of the MM's.

 

I've been considering 8 + 1 MM AB w/ C-Plasma, 2 x Plasmaguns. Though I suppose the PW could be a good bit of redundancy if you really do have to assault someone. Though I'd rather include a unit or 2 for assaults and not use the bike squads, they are just tactical squads on bikes after all.

 

Maybe take a tooled command squad or get some terminators (possibly DS them in close to the battle line). Will be definitely be taking a couple of full AB squadrons with MM though.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Surely you'll be taking MM Attack Bikes, so the lack of MG's on the bike squads shouldn't be an issue. Think the most important thing for bike armies will be reducing the transports quickly and at range, this is where I think plasma will have its place due to glancing death and the +1 if you get lucky and penetrate.. Also ties in with the 24" range of the MM's.

 

I've been considering 8 + 1 MM AB w/ C-Plasma, 2 x Plasmaguns. Though I suppose the PW could be a good bit of redundancy if you really do have to assault someone. Though I'd rather include a unit or 2 for assaults and not use the bike squads, they are just tactical squads on bikes after all.

 

Maybe take a tooled command squad or get some terminators (possibly DS them in close to the battle line). Will be definitely be taking a couple of full AB squadrons with MM though.

I'm currently reconsidering my list in order to include the command squad (on bikes so the Captain can join them wintout movement limitations) and the support units.

My main concern is the effective number of bikers units to include.

Any idea?

[Rage]

I'm thinking 2 full units in 1500 + 5 man scout unit with Telion, sniper rifles and camo cloaks. In 2000, probably 3 or 2 with 10 sniper scouts in support.

[Reinholt]

With regard to the 1 MM / 2 PG / sergeant squad, I plan to combat squad them so that the plasma and the sergeant are in one squad, and the remaining three bikes and the AB are in the other squad. Thus, I have a concentration of roles for both squads; the MM bike squad is for killing vehicles (and, failing that, spamming bolter rounds into infantry), and the PG squad is for killing light vehicles or heavily armored troops.

 

I'd rather take two squads of that to have a pair of MM ABs than I would want one squad with the two MGs + 1 MM AB. The reality is that bikes work best if you can keep range with them; you don't want to be within 12" of the enemy because you are going to be assaulted and locked up. I've always thought you want to hang back, pick them apart, and then zoom in to punch them in the face once they are weak. Barring super shooty armies, but for those, you should be able to assault with basic marines and win regardless of your guns (e.g. fire warriors).

 

In that context, you never get to use your MGs until you are at the point where you shouldn't need them anymore. Thus why I think bikes have been so hugely buffed in this edition.

[Cmdr Shepard]

So what do you think about:

 

Captain on bike with thunder hammer and stormshield

Command Squad on bikes (I believe claws my be a good choice)

 

3x Bikers units (8 bikes, 2 plasma guns, Attack Bike with multimelta)

 

These units are about 1330 pts (with 3 claws on command squad)

 

Planning to reach 2000pts I have 670 pts available.

 

with 2 stormtalons, an unit of 3 Multimelta attack bikes and 2x 5 Scouts with camo cloaks and ML I'd reach 1990 pts.

 

It seems a very low model count at 2000 pts. Are you sure this will not create problems? A part from the 2 stormtalons I don't have dedicated A/A. The bikes can however try to stay away from the flyers line of site or range (hoping the 90° pivot will make difficult for flyers to target my units)

 

Would this army be effective?

[Koremu]

I've always felt that combat squading Bikers lent itself well to having a clear role-difference between the two squads. I used to like having 1 CS be Sgt + Flamer + 3 for mostly anti-infantry duties, and MMAB + Plasma + 2 for destroying transports.

 

A single MMAB isn't reliable enough a tank hunter vs Heavy Armour though. As others have mentioned, your Bikes need to skirmish engage, and that makes using the Melta rule effectively difficult unless your target makes itself vulnerable.

[Cmdr Shepard]

A single MMAB isn't reliable enough a tank hunter vs Heavy Armour though. As others have mentioned, your Bikes need to skirmish engage, and that makes using the Melta rule effectively difficult unless your target makes itself vulnerable.

We reached a consensus on that -_-

Now my problem is to field the most effective numbers of bikers units. As I mentioned it seems this army will have a very low models count and I wonder if this can compromise its effectiveness.

[Paulochromis]

Hey Cmdr,

You talk about number of units, but in and of itself that isn't particularly useful.

 

6th ed brings some interesting changes:

-- Bikes are inherently more resilient (true T5)

-- terrain-sourced Cover is worse (5+ instead of 4+), but applies to individual models now, so hiding 50% for the save less important. Mobility-based Cover is available now as well.

-- Snap shot with heavy weapons possible (no rule book, so what about specials?)

-- Overwatch

 

ShinyRhino, in his 5th ed tactica talked about fielding AB squadrons alongside biker troops, not ABs in biker squads.

I like this idea, but if you're going with Talons, you may not have the FA slots available.

 

You know what points you have available, so you need to decide between MSU versus full, maxed-out units.

Discussion points here include:

-- MSU allows more special weapons (increaing "killyness"), but reduces body count (resilience)

-- Full units allow combat squadding (useful for objective-based missions), but some (myself included) believe that when you DO combat squad, the squads are rarely as effective as you want, and when you DON'T the the unit is very large/unwieldy = difficult to hide.

 

I'm undecided atm, but with a moratorium on spending, not owning any Talons nor enough speeders, I am leaning towards mid-sized units, with AB squads alongside. Bigger units if combat seems likely or if the role is predominantly AI, smaller melta-heavy units for AT.

So:

-- 7 bikes with fist or sword and dual flamer;

-- 4 bikes with fist or CM, dual melta & MMAB;

-- 5 bikes with CP, dual plasma & MMAB

-- 1x2 MMAB

-- 1x2 Typhoons

Even toying with

-- 3 bikes with CM+MB, 2xMG in FA for pure low-range AT

 

I am including a command squad tooled-up for CC, but am also trying to build a quad-plasma unit, since the command squad power weapons no longer kill TEQ.

 

Cheers, Paul.

[Rage]

You need more firepower I think, 2 full Bike squads should be enough plus the scouts. Take Telion in one of the Scout units, he'll happily pick off specific models in units all day long and also makes that scout unit a swine to kill when in cover.

 

Question is, is it worth taking an Ally detachment to fill in some gaps? I've been considering taking a Blood Angels Librarian on a Bike (for Divination), plus a Priest and an Assault Squad (some additional fast moving troops for assaulting weakened units). What about adding some Infantry such as Grey Hunters (Again the Rune Priest comes with Divination)? (White Scars used to have True Grit in the prvious Codex, the rage of the blood angels can be thought of as the feral rage that beats within the soul of every White Scar warrior...if you're concerned by fluff).

 

Edit: Damn it, GW aren't as dumb as I thought!

[Cmdr Shepard]

Hey Cmdr,

You talk about number of units, but in and of itself that isn't particularly useful.

I just talked about the number of units because I plan to build the army, thus I have to decide how many units to field :)

 

Anyway your detailed analisys is very appreciated.

The low body counts seems a preblem to me, I may be wrong though.

Even with their increased T, default cover save and their mobility I fear bikers squads will still have some problem in "thinning enemy ranks", especially horde-like ones. They have TL bolters and very little more.

The low body count will reduces the "shots per rounds", of course. The command squad should be capable to deal with most CC duties, except the most dangerous ones (hordes, once more).

 

In my "prototype list" I put two Stormtalon and 1x3 Attack Bikes units.

 

I still cannot decide between MSU and Full Units. You described perfectly their pros and cons. I think a MSU bikers unit may not difficult to destroy, just my first impression.

 

Question is, is it worth taking an Ally detachment to fill in some gaps?

I thought to include IG as allies for the purpose of increasing the number of scoring units and an additional flyer. Beside IG seems to be always "nasty" to fight.

Points limit is still a problem ;)

[Rage]

How about adding some thunderfire cannons for crowd control, they don't seem to be as fragile as they used to be. Plus as I mentioned consider a Blood Angels Assault Squad with Sanguinary Priest, they'll thin out those ork mobs. Not so great against MEQ but thats why all the plasma guns and melta weapons are in the list.

 

Also I'm still not convinced by the Storm Talon, unless I see vast numbers of Fliers I'll think I'll hold off and get more firepower for the points.

 

At this present moment @1500pts I'm considering:

 

Captain w/ Bike, Art.Armour, Dual LC (Bike Squad 1)

Blood Angel Lib w/ Bike, Divination Powers (Bike Squad 2)

 

Blood Angel Priest w/ Jump Pack, Power Axe (Assault Squad)

 

Bike Squad 1 (4 + 1 AB), w/ Power Lance, 2 x Plasma Gun

Bike Squad 2 (4 + 1 AB), w/ Power Lance, 2 x Plasma Gun

10 Blood Angel Assault Squad w/ PW+PP, 2 x Plasma Gun

5 Scouts w/ Telion, Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks

 

3 x Attack Bikes w/ MM

3 x Attack Bikes w/ MM

 

It's still short on numbers but the vast majority of those are in the 4 Troops choices (one of which has FnP), one of which is a base camp sitter. It's also very tempting to deep strike the assualt squad in behind tanks/soft targets using the Descent of Angels rule and deliver plasma death! If Devastators get FAQ'd to give them Flakk missiles then I'll be including those next...or just bulk out the bike squads.

 

Edit: Just thought about fliers and then realised that can use Divination with the MM Attack Bikes for re-rolling to hit those pesky things, still not guaranteed to hit but increases the chances somewhat. A penetrating hit by a MM Attack Bike would be a 50% chance of death....come on you lucky dice!

[Cmdr Shepard]

How about adding some thunderfire cannons for crowd control, they don't seem to be as fragile as they used to be. Plus as I mentioned consider a Blood Angels Assault Squad with Sanguinary Priest, they'll thin out those ork mobs. Not so great against MEQ but thats why all the plasma guns and melta weapons are in the list.

 

Also I'm still not convinced by the Storm Talon, unless I see vast numbers of Fliers I'll think I'll hold off and get more firepower for the points.

 

At this present moment @1500pts I'm considering:

 

Captain w/ Bike, Art.Armour, Dual LC (Bike Squad 1)

Blood Angel Lib w/ Bike, Divination Powers (Bike Squad 2)

 

Blood Angel Priest w/ Jump Pack, Power Axe (Assault Squad)

 

Bike Squad 1 (4 + 1 AB), w/ Power Lance, 2 x Plasma Gun

Bike Squad 2 (4 + 1 AB), w/ Power Lance, 2 x Plasma Gun

10 Blood Angel Assault Squad w/ PW+PP, 2 x Plasma Gun

5 Scouts w/ Telion, Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks

 

3 x Attack Bikes w/ MM

3 x Attack Bikes w/ MM

 

It's still short on numbers but the vast majority of those are in the 4 Troops choices (one of which has FnP), one of which is a base camp sitter. It's also very tempting to deep strike the assualt squad in behind tanks/soft targets using the Descent of Angels rule and deliver plasma death! If Devastators get FAQ'd to give them Flakk missiles then I'll be including those next...or just bulk out the bike squads.

 

The problem with Stormtalon is the same with every other flyer. On paper they look great but on the field they may not meet your expectations. I suppose they'll de destroyed more often than we think and in most circumstances it will be a luck-based event (like being the first or the second to enter the battlefield etc) but currently many players will be more confident to field them.

 

Your C:SM/BA allience is nice. Still short on numbers as you said. BA assault squad is a reliable unit, for the role you choose for them. I only wonder if the 5 bikes will have a good survivability. if enemies focus fire on them two squds may die fast.

 

I always have such sort of problems with bikers armies :) , it's the reason I aborted the project during 5th edition.

[Rage]

Numbers are always going to suck, just going to have to rely on their 'toughness' to see me through. Will probably be hoping that Telion and his snipers will be able to remove a few of the heavy/special weapons in a unit or even pin them.

 

Can also slap a couple of wounds on the Captain if I get a bit desperate, the 2+ save could potentially save me quite a few deaths...risky though as he'll have to be the closest model at which point a tonne of Plasma will put paid to him, unless I use LOS to save him if it gets a bit over the top or someone aims a railgun at his face! If I had the points then a Relic Blade+SS combo would be a good one.

[Reinholt]

A few thoughts on force composition...

 

With bikes, I have found hordes are typically not a problem for me unless they are truly massive hordes. TL bike shots where you can shoot and fall back, shoot and fall back, shoot and fall back, then engage up close at the end tends to thin hordes out dramatically. Taking 3+ rounds of TL bolter fire along with a few specials, then having to deal with T5 marines up close is pretty ugly for many hordes and assault based units.

 

If you are facing truly massive hordes, you should take support to whittle them down. Template weapons, ideally outside of the bike squads, or cheap vehicles with high rates of fire (Predator Destructors with the HBs come to mind) are very plausible here. Given the random weapon stripping of 6th ed, I'm considering running PDs with AC/HBx2/SB as my standard loadout. Cheap, will lay down a lot of fire before dying now that you cannot surpress them with glances, and deadly to hordes.

 

Anti-armor has typically not been a problem for me with bikes. If there is limited armor, if you took enough MMABs and support, you should be fine. In the case where there is a huge amount of armor, blitzing across the board on the first turn to get up close to limit the effectiveness thereof has also been good to me.

 

I think the easiest trap to fall into with bikes is taking static support, however. I'm not a fan of scouts for that reason, unless they are coming in from reserve or in a LSS. Your main advantage with bikes is the incredible ability to reposition your entire army; if you leave a trail of weaker units behind when you do this, you are minimizing your strength by allowing your opponent to pick you apart piecemeal, which is precisely what you want to be doing to them instead with bikes.

[ShinyRhino]

Just to stick my face in, I do plan to update my Biker tactica for 6th Edition. I just need to find the free time to sit down and do so.

 

One thing I will interject right now is the squad size debate. As in 5th, I just don't see the utility in full-sized bike squads in 6th. Those eight bikes and an attack bike take up a HUGE footprint. Yes, it gets smaller if you combat squad, but you have to ask "why?" when combat squadding those units, especialyl when you've monobuilt them like that (plasma+MMABx3).

One of the big force multipliers in a Biker army are the Sergeants. Their Ld9 doesn't sound like much, but it is a boost over Ld8, and when your Bikers run away, they do so quickly. You want every point of Ld you can get. They can also pack combiweapons that can and shoudl compliment the special weapons the squad is carrying. Another HUGE boost to Bikers this edition are the grenades versus moving vehicles rules. You now hit any moving vehicle on a 3 with grenades, and that includes your sergeant's meltabombs. You can actually glance a Rhino to death before ever hittng I1 now due to the auto-hitting Hammer of Wrath hits (though S4, they still have a chance), 3s to hit with S6 krak grenades, and then the 3 to hit with the I1 meltabomb.

 

As a result, you want MORE sergeants, not less. I've always found a 6-man biker squad to be ideal. However, I do not run my attack bikes inside my biker squads. I use FA slots for them for the redundancy of fire. Two multimeltas is better than one, especially when firing at important targets. I cover all that in my old tactica, though.

 

Keep in mind the tactica was written with Pure Bike armies in mind. I never managed to get around to detailing the hybrid and non-pure armies. My 6th Edition version will cover that, when I get it down on paper.

[Reinholt]

Therein lies the difference in my view with yours: in the army I currently run, my FA slots are occupied with things other than ABs (namely, speeders, and possibly one unit of Vanguard if I'm using Courbray from IA9).

 

I don't necessarily object to the 6-man biker squad, either. I would prefer them with the AB, however. Five bikes + 1AB is just about perfect to me in that sense, as you'd have a sergeant, two special weapons, the attack bike, and then two bolter bobs. A few ablative wounds, but you could pack a lot of special weapons in there.

[Cmdr Shepard]

6 bikers per unit was my first idea, you may see the orignal post about that :D, well it was 6 plus AB.

In my update list, I'll post it soon, I put a 3 AB units with MM. Currently 2 of my FA slots are occupied by Stormtalons for A/A duties. However I still wonder if they will be useful in a biker army or just a "point sink", as they say :D.

 

With bikes, I have found hordes are typically not a problem for me unless they are truly massive hordes. TL bike shots where you can shoot and fall back, shoot and fall back, shoot and fall back, then engage up close at the end tends to thin hordes out dramatically. Taking 3+ rounds of TL bolter fire along with a few specials, then having to deal with T5 marines up close is pretty ugly for many hordes and assault based units.

What do you mean with "massive horde"? 30 Ork boyz per unit, for example?

 

think the easiest trap to fall into with bikes is taking static support, however. I'm not a fan of scouts for that reason, unless they are coming in from reserve or in a LSS. Your main advantage with bikes is the incredible ability to reposition your entire army; if you leave a trail of weaker units behind when you do this, you are minimizing your strength by allowing your opponent to pick you apart piecemeal, which is precisely what you want to be doing to them instead with bikes.

The scout role is to hold the deployment zone's objective in order to allow the bikes to move across the table killing enemies and capture/contest objective while the one "LZ" still gives you a victory point.

However I agree with you the "leaving weaker units behind" may be an issue, however it's the only chance to hold the a single objective without keeping the bikes static.

[Rage]

think the easiest trap to fall into with bikes is taking static support, however. I'm not a fan of scouts for that reason, unless they are coming in from reserve or in a LSS. Your main advantage with bikes is the incredible ability to reposition your entire army; if you leave a trail of weaker units behind when you do this, you are minimizing your strength by allowing your opponent to pick you apart piecemeal, which is precisely what you want to be doing to them instead with bikes.

 

I agree about leaving men behind to a great extent, I wouldn't want to split the force up too much as any punch you deliver will be massively diluted. The 5 man scout squad I don't believe to be a massive issue in that regard though, it can hold an objective and be a pain to remove from shooting. If the opponent wishes to expend alot of effeort to remove them then I'll be happy for that to happen as that's them diluting their attacks against the core of my force which is the bikes.

 

As a result, you want MORE sergeants, not less. I've always found a 6-man biker squad to be ideal. However, I do not run my attack bikes inside my biker squads. I use FA slots for them for the redundancy of fire. Two multimeltas is better than one, especially when firing at important targets. I cover all that in my old tactica, though.

 

Sergeants are handy with the combi-weapon, I was pondering that same thing, Power Lance vs C-Plasma?

 

As for attack bikes in squads, I think they're far too useful as bullet catchers not to take one. They can now take a lascannon hit and still keep on trucking even if they fail their jink save.