SM Bikers in 6th

[Reinholt]

My thoughts on hordes:

 

30 ork boyz doesn't worry me; you should whack about 4 ork boyz per turn with 8 bikes + 1 ab before even considering special weapons... that's just off the bolters alone. So either focus fire the mob with a few, or hit and move for four turns before engaging and more than half of them are dead right away. You can also challenge nobs now so the power klaw can't munch all your bikes.

 

180 ork boyz, on the other hand, is going to be a problem. That's what I mean about extreme hordes.

 

My thoughts on objectives:

 

I rarely play an all bike army. I like taking one tactical squad in my bike armies so I can hold static objectives but still allow my guys to move. I continually waffle between taking a rhino, or taking a razorback and combat squadding them so one group is running behind the bikes and the other is the objective holder with some additional firepower hanging around nearby. It's also a real possibility to abandon the objective and come back for it later if you are super mobile.

 

In the new edition of the game I am starting to consider taking a 40pt TLHB razorback as the transport, as well...

[Cmdr Shepard]

I agree about leaving men behind to a great extent, I wouldn't want to split the force up too much as any punch you deliver will be massively diluted. The 5 man scout squad I don't believe to be a massive issue in that regard though, it can hold an objective and be a pain to remove from shooting. If the opponent wishes to expend alot of effeort to remove them then I'll be happy for that to happen as that's them diluting their attacks against the core of my force which is the bikes.

This was exaclty my thought on scouts :lol:

 

Sergeants are handy with the combi-weapon, I was pondering that same thing, Power Lance vs C-Plasma?

 

As for attack bikes in squads, I think they're far too useful as bullet catchers not to take one. They can now take a lascannon hit and still keep on trucking even if they fail their jink save.

A part from usefulness Power Lance makes a lot of sense for a character in a bike ;). Anyway why do you consider them a better choice than other power weapons?

Good point on AB.

 

30 ork boyz doesn't worry me; you should whack about 4 ork boyz per turn with 8 bikes + 1 ab before even considering special weapons... that's just off the bolters alone. So either focus fire the mob with a few, or hit and move for four turns before engaging and more than half of them are dead right away. You can also challenge nobs now so the power klaw can't munch all your bikes.

 

180 ork boyz, on the other hand, is going to be a problem. That's what I mean about extreme hordes.

I wrote 30 ork boys per unit for a reason ;)

When I played Orks in 5th edition I used a 1500 pts army with more than 120 ork boyz and I know how "nasty" it can be, hence the reason of concern about bikers armies vs hordes.

I think orks will be deadly in 6th edition too. I see an increase in the use of lootas to counter flyers and they don't even care about snap-shooting as we do with SM armies.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I made a modified version of my bikers list. It is not the definitive version. Let me know what do you think

I equiped the bikers units with plasma guns as their special weapons. Sergeants are still equiped with power weapon, I could give them a combi-weapon or a plasma pistol intsead

 

Space Marine Captian

SM Bike, Thuderhammer, Storm shield, Artificer Armour.

 

4x Bikers Squad

6 Bikes, 2x Plasmaguns, Sergeant with power weapon and melta-bombs, attack bike with Multimelta.

 

2x Stormtalon

Skyhammer ML

 

1x3 Attack Bikes

Multimelta

 

1715 pts, still 285 pts available and I have to include the Command Squad on bikes. I wanted to add a 5 men Scouts units for keeping an objective in my deployment zone but it seems I won't have the points available for it, unless I don't buy "weapons upgrades" for the command squad on bikes.

[Reinholt]

My main caution with that list would be that your wise opponents are going to put objectives in bad places for bikes. I always like having one tactical squad so I'm not having bikers dying horribly to their ultimate nemesis: terrain.

[Cmdr Shepard]

My main caution with that list would be that your wise opponents are going to put objectives in bad places for bikes. I always like having one tactical squad so I'm not having bikers dying horribly to their ultimate nemesis: terrain.

Good point. I wanted to include a non-bikers unit too. This means I'll have to remove either a biker squad or a Stormtalon. Or not fielding the command squad.

 

What do you suggest?

[facmanpob]

Personally I would drop the 1x3 MMAB FA choice, and put in a dual-MM speeder. That would save 70 points and give similar effectiveness, and it can deep strike! Then I would drop a single bike from each squad, giving you an extra 100 points. This would leave a total of 455 points.

 

If you want a Tac squad in the list I'd then add a Tac squad plus Rhino, and maybe a couple of Predators.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Personally I would drop the 1x3 MMAB FA choice, and put in a dual-MM speeder. That would save 70 points and give similar effectiveness, and it can deep strike! Then I would drop a single bike from each squad, giving you an extra 100 points. This would leave a total of 455 points.

 

If you want a Tac squad in the list I'd then add a Tac squad plus Rhino, and maybe a couple of Predators.

 

Given the current "state" of this list I suppose exachanging the 1x3 AB with a dual MM land speeder is necessary.

I'd like to keep 6 bikes per unit if possible. I may reconsider the AB inside bikers units but it will reduce my fire power and take away nice 2W models.

[facmanpob]

Personally I would drop the 1x3 MMAB FA choice, and put in a dual-MM speeder. That would save 70 points and give similar effectiveness, and it can deep strike! Then I would drop a single bike from each squad, giving you an extra 100 points. This would leave a total of 455 points.

 

If you want a Tac squad in the list I'd then add a Tac squad plus Rhino, and maybe a couple of Predators.

 

Given the current "state" of this list I suppose exachanging the 1x3 AB with a dual MM land speeder is necessary.

I'd like to keep 6 bikes per unit if possible. I may reconsider the AB inside bikers units but it will reduce my fire power and take away nice 2W models.

If you keep the extra bike (although I personally wouldn't simply because of squad footprint issues), swapping out the MMAB FA squad still gives you 355 points to play with - more than enough for a tac squad in a rhino and a pred. I would keep the embedded attack bikes though as they can be useful. ;)

[Cmdr Shepard]

Personally I would drop the 1x3 MMAB FA choice, and put in a dual-MM speeder. That would save 70 points and give similar effectiveness, and it can deep strike! Then I would drop a single bike from each squad, giving you an extra 100 points. This would leave a total of 455 points.

 

If you want a Tac squad in the list I'd then add a Tac squad plus Rhino, and maybe a couple of Predators.

 

Given the current "state" of this list I suppose exachanging the 1x3 AB with a dual MM land speeder is necessary.

I'd like to keep 6 bikes per unit if possible. I may reconsider the AB inside bikers units but it will reduce my fire power and take away nice 2W models.

If you keep the extra bike (although I personally wouldn't simply because of squad footprint issues), swapping out the MMAB FA squad still gives you 355 points to play with - more than enough for a tac squad in a rhino and a pred. I would keep the embedded attack bikes though as they can be useful. :)

 

So you think a 5 men unit is better... Just a question: isn't a 6 men unit a little more survivable? I have nothing against 5 men units, it means less bikes to buy, after all ;)

[facmanpob]

So you think a 5 men unit is better... Just a question: isn't a 6 men unit a little more survivable? I have nothing against 5 men units, it means less bikes to buy, after all :P

well, it's all about how many wounds you can take before having to take a morale check. A unit of 4 bikes and an attack bike (5 models) needs to lose 2 models before having to take a morale test (>25% losses). Any extra bikes don't increase the number of models needed to be lost in one turn before a morale test is taken, but 1 extra bike (5 + AB) does allow 2 turns of losing a single bike without needing a morale test. So increasing the number of bikes helps, but with diminishing returns. Those diminishing returns must be balanced against squad footprint, which, as it grows, makes it harder to get cover/fit into combat/fit through gaps in terrain, and generally avoid things like Vindicator large blast templates. It's a personal choice, but I think that balance is reached at 5 bikes + Attack Bike. :)

[Cmdr Shepard]

So you think a 5 men unit is better... Just a question: isn't a 6 men unit a little more survivable? I have nothing against 5 men units, it means less bikes to buy, after all ;)

well, it's all about how many wounds you can take before having to take a morale check. A unit of 4 bikes and an attack bike (5 models) needs to lose 2 models before having to take a morale test (>25% losses). Any extra bikes don't increase the number of models needed to be lost in one turn before a morale test is taken, but 1 extra bike (5 + AB) does allow 2 turns of losing a single bike without needing a morale test. So increasing the number of bikes helps, but with diminishing returns. Those diminishing returns must be balanced against squad footprint, which, as it grows, makes it harder to get cover/fit into combat/fit through gaps in terrain, and generally avoid things like Vindicator large blast templates. It's a personal choice, but I think that balance is reached at 5 bikes + Attack Bike. :(

 

I'll give it a try. I can still add an additional bike in future, if my play style is different. ;)

 

What do you think about command squad on bikes? Is it worth its cost?

[facmanpob]

I'll give it a try. I can still add an additional bike in future, if my play style is different. :)

 

What do you think about command squad on bikes? Is it worth its cost?

Never been able to fit them in to be honest, as I would rather spend the points elsewhere. Also, I like bikes for their mobility and shooting firepower, so I've never wanted to get them into CC with anything that would need a command squad's power. Maybe I'll be tempted in 6th Ed, with the extra impact attack....hmmmm will have to think on this some more! :P

[Rage]

The command squad in mind is going to get used as a big brother to the bike squads, it can stand back and shoot while trying to intercept certain units that get too close to the bike squads. I don't want them too expensive as they will be getting shot at, so there is no point sticking loads of gear on them.

 

Against fast assault units that are more powerful than the command squad that start getting close I can combine all the firepower on the unit before assaulting (if it's required). Though a good opponent will keep his fast assault unit with his advancing support units so it's all about drawing it out into the open so I can gang up on it.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I'll give it a try. I can still add an additional bike in future, if my play style is different. :(

 

What do you think about command squad on bikes? Is it worth its cost?

Never been able to fit them in to be honest, as I would rather spend the points elsewhere. Also, I like bikes for their mobility and shooting firepower, so I've never wanted to get them into CC with anything that would need a command squad's power. Maybe I'll be tempted in 6th Ed, with the extra impact attack....hmmmm will have to think on this some more! :(

I had the same opion on command squad. I have to say it is very tempting, especially for the "fluff aspect"if you field a Captain on bike ;)

 

The command squad in mind is going to get used as a big brother to the bike squads, it can stand back and shoot while trying to intercept certain units that get too close to the bike squads. I don't want them too expensive as they will be getting shot at, so there is no point sticking loads of gear on them.

 

Against fast assault units that are more powerful than the command squad that start getting close I can combine all the firepower on the unit before assaulting (if it's required). Though a good opponent will keep his fast assault unit with his advancing support units so it's all about drawing it out into the open so I can gang up on it.

 

I planned to keep the unit less expesive as possible. I was thinking about a champion for challanges purposes, a couple of lightning claws and maybe some special weapon (not sure about that)

 

What do you think?

[thelordcal]

I've been playing White Scars since the start of 5th edition, the new edition has brought some changes but overall i think we're better off for it. I waffle between taking less bike squads to bulk up fewer, but in the end i've decided to run this for awhile to see how it does.

 

Captain on Bike w. Artificer and Relic Blade

 

2x Bike Squad (4+1)

-2x Meltas, MM AB, Plasma Pistol

2x Bike Squad (4+1)

-2x Plasma, MM AB, Plasma Pistol

 

Scouts Squad (5)

-Snipes, Camo

 

2x Storm Talon Typhoon

 

2x Vindicators w. Siege Shield

 

Aegis Defense Line w. Quad Gun

 

1750pts. At 2,000 i add 2 bikes to each squad and bulk the scouts up to 8 men.

 

Right now the list at 1750 is 2/0/1 the draw coming against Black Templar. I lost my Vindicators early to some lucky missile fire, and forgetting about the new disordered charge rule saw 3 bike squads wiped out. The captain is extremely durable having survived every game and scalping some pretty nasty opponents (2x Rune Priest, 1 Emperors Champion, 2 full squads of Grey Hunters

 

 

Any thoughts on the list?

[rubix41]

I think the easiest trap to fall into with bikes is taking static support, however. I'm not a fan of scouts for that reason, unless they are coming in from reserve or in a LSS. Your main advantage with bikes is the incredible ability to reposition your entire army; if you leave a trail of weaker units behind when you do this, you are minimizing your strength by allowing your opponent to pick you apart piecemeal, which is precisely what you want to be doing to them instead with bikes.

 

I have been finding it hard pressed with bikes lately - 5th and 6th - due to opponents using terrain and whatever "dangerous" terrain has been finding it and ruins/buildings (can't occupy them so they are using every scrap of cover and I am flaming them but very slowly) but I am thinking of some high powered static support because of two things:

 

1) As discussed, I want them to dilute their force to flush out my static line. So I am keeping a static Vindicator

2) Flakk Missiles + Typhoon Missile Launchers: Synergy on the ground with Krak and Frag and optional deterrant against a flyer.

 

Usually, I have my Vindicators rolling for close support and screening fire but they have been a bullet magnet lately. As well as my Landspeeder Typhoons (see above: No one likes taking 6 Krak Missiles a turn AND 9 Heavy Bolter shots - even more so if they are in your grill)

 

However, so far, Hammer of Wrath is useful but not game changing and grenades even the odds. I see Plasma being more deployed in my army over melta due to more shots at AP2 over instant death at AP 1. I am still experimenting with my Captain - I have ditched the Relic Blade to get Lightning Claws because I seem to be moving to shooting High Toughness/2+ targets and maximising my damage vs Low Toughness but, in my last challenge, it's a bit lack lustre.

 

My Librarian on a bike seems to be making a come back - Upgrade to Epistolary (Telepathy): Hoping for Invis. and Biomancy to get FNP and It won't die but he's still very vulnerable.

 

Overall, everyone seems to be stocking up towards 2+ assault for bikes for me or, as people have been saying before, a big horde (I do suffer in 1000pt games versus Nids...)

 

I am also thinking Terminators...but in a biker army? :S I am still not so sure - maybe I should be shooting more instead of thinking about the assault.

 

EDIT: Woah, my first post since joining in 2009...

[rubix41]

The command squad in mind is going to get used as a big brother to the bike squads, it can stand back and shoot while trying to intercept certain units that get too close to the bike squads. I don't want them too expensive as they will be getting shot at, so there is no point sticking loads of gear on them.

 

Against fast assault units that are more powerful than the command squad that start getting close I can combine all the firepower on the unit before assaulting (if it's required). Though a good opponent will keep his fast assault unit with his advancing support units so it's all about drawing it out into the open so I can gang up on it.

 

But that's beaucoup points - even with plasma guns all round! Mind you, it might be more worthwhile with Overwatch and FNP...Still not an investment worth sinking in my 1500pt or so games.

 

EDIT: Whoops with the double post - where's the delete post button?

[Vincent Black Shadow]

I think thunderfire cannons are now indespensible in bike armies given the buff to artillery

- Subterranean shots can stunlock enemies, allowing you to dance around charge range more easily and bottleneck enemies

- Fistful of templates help deal with hordes when you have lower model count

- Can fortify home objectives and stick some sniper scouts or tacs in there to support

[rubix41]

I think thunderfire cannons are now indespensible in bike armies given the buff to artillery

- Subterranean shots can stunlock enemies, allowing you to dance around charge range more easily and bottleneck enemies

- Fistful of templates help deal with hordes when you have lower model count

- Can fortify home objectives and stick some sniper scouts or tacs in there to support

 

Hmm, that's not bad thinking - a fully sized devastator unit with 4 heavy weapons + HB razorback = at least two Thunderfire cannons. However, since its in my Heavy Support, it's vying for my Vindicators for two spots. And, unlike Thunderfire's, it's AP2 S10 - not S6-S4 depending on mode. However, the Bolster Defences is still good for entrenching.

[Vincent Black Shadow]

It's true, the TFC would be less useful against high T/high armor targets. But rolling bikes, you'll likely have a decent number of MM ABs to deal with vehicles and 2+ armor anyway. I guess it's a matter of what style of game you want to play. Hit them hard and then hope their counterpunch is dulled enough, or pummel them from a range (60" is a lot of ground) where they can't counter without committing to it.

 

You were talking about keeping a single static vindicator, why not one of each? Support the vindicator with the entrenched TFC(s) and whatever other unit(s) you put with it, and vice versa.

[Ricter]

I see the no attack bike mentality in bike squads as rather strange, myself, especially in 6E with S8/9 no longer inflicting ID on them.

 

If going for a minimum squad (5 models, no upgrades), avoiding the attack bike keeps the total cost of the squad down.

 

However, if going for a squad of 6 models or not a minimum squad, I have to say that the attack bike is a bargain. I think it is misleading to consider the squad as ablative wounds for the bike, and rather flip it to consider them as an upgrade.

 

2 Bikers cost 50 points, while the AB HB is 40. Buying the AB HB instead gives you:

10 less points

Heavy Bolter

Smaller Footprint

Can take 1 W before you lose any firing/attacks effectiveness

vs

Twin-Linked Bolter

Can take s10 attacks slightly better

 

Even if you are going for a minimum squad, you may pay 15 points for the following 'upgrade':

+1 Wound

Additional Heavy Bolter to your TL bolter compliment

 

I feel that in both these cases, the AB HB is a steal. Further, compare the AB MM to 2 Bikers:

Multi-Melta

Smaller Footprint

Can take 1 W before you lose any firing/attacks effectiveness

vs

Twin-Linked Bolter

Can take s10 attacks slightly better

 

I can think of very few targets where they TL bolter actually outdamages the Multi-Melta. Even if you're firing at GEQ in rapid fire range, TL bolter is only 1.18 dead vs the .55 dead of the MM. So now you've lost about half a GEQ kill within 12, and in exchange your unit is better at shooting at everything else and now have the option of destroying any vehicle, which you previously lacked.

 

Now going for the fully squad size of 8 bikes + AB may make the difference, but to be honest I agree that is a weaker tactic. I think for smaller sized squads, AB are an include unless you really need the minimum cost troops.. I'm willing to admit I've not played a bike army, but I have played C:SM extensively. There may be something I'm missing.

[rubix41]

It's true, the TFC would be less useful against high T/high armor targets. But rolling bikes, you'll likely have a decent number of MM ABs to deal with vehicles and 2+ armor anyway. I guess it's a matter of what style of game you want to play. Hit them hard and then hope their counterpunch is dulled enough, or pummel them from a range (60" is a lot of ground) where they can't counter without committing to it.

 

You were talking about keeping a single static vindicator, why not one of each? Support the vindicator with the entrenched TFC(s) and whatever other unit(s) you put with it, and vice versa.

 

After pondering about it overnight, with vindicators, there is a question of redundancy - one can be ignored, two needs to be thought about, three - well, that's a threat. I run with two usually, meaning my Heavy Support is a little low but I have noticed that the bane of Vindicators (weapon destroyed) can be diluted by the addition of extra weapons since a weapon destroyed its random now. But I am moving off the matter...

 

Adding Thunderfire's, I probably go with 1-2 (thus my dilemma since I will drop a Vindicator) BUT I would like the footprint for the static line to be big enough to swamp an area. I am thinking a dry run is in order - a low level dev, razorback, a thunderfire and poss. barebones sniper scouts as a static line to see how much of a distraction.

 

At the moment, it may be just easier to squeeze in another bike squad:

 

I see the no attack bike mentality in bike squads as rather strange, myself, especially in 6E with S8/9 no longer inflicting ID on them.

 

If going for a minimum squad (5 models, no upgrades), avoiding the attack bike keeps the total cost of the squad down.

 

I have never run any of my bike squads without an AB - even if it's a MM/MG suicide squad - even in low squads since you need to keep the footprint low to get away from a Battlecannon shell that wipes them out nearly!

[ShinyRhino]

I see the no attack bike mentality in bike squads as rather strange, myself, especially in 6E with S8/9 no longer inflicting ID on them.

 

Empahsis mine.

That does make ABs in bike squads more useful these days, but my problem with them in 5th was a combination of the ID factor and the conflicting range bands and primary targets of the attack bikes when stacked against the squad's special weapons.

Meltaguns were always wasted when riding alongside the MMAB, because the range bands never matched. You had to be within 6" of the target for all three weapons to be operating at full effectiveness, and I never felt being that close was beneficial for a full squad due to their vulnerabilities to assault.

MMABs match with plasmaguns, but never had the same desired targets. Plasmaguns worked best on light armor, and MMs felt wasted there.

I rarely ran HBABs because the crowd at my FLGS tended towards MEQ armies or full-mech Xenos forces. The heavy bolter was never useful in those situations.

 

Of course, with 6th, all of that changes.

[Ricter]

I see the no attack bike mentality in bike squads as rather strange, myself, especially in 6E with S8/9 no longer inflicting ID on them.

 

Empahsis mine.

That does make ABs in bike squads more useful these days, but my problem with them in 5th was a combination of the ID factor and the conflicting range bands and primary targets of the attack bikes when stacked against the squad's special weapons.

Meltaguns were always wasted when riding alongside the MMAB, because the range bands never matched. You had to be within 6" of the target for all three weapons to be operating at full effectiveness, and I never felt being that close was beneficial for a full squad due to their vulnerabilities to assault.

MMABs match with plasmaguns, but never had the same desired targets. Plasmaguns worked best on light armor, and MMs felt wasted there.

I rarely ran HBABs because the crowd at my FLGS tended towards MEQ armies or full-mech Xenos forces. The heavy bolter was never useful in those situations.

 

Of course, with 6th, all of that changes.

 

I think that's a backwards way of approaching the problem, however. You're looking at it as the AB now being the focus of the squad.

 

Instead, look at it like you're trading a TL Bolter for a Heavy Bolter and saving 10 points. How is the TL bolter ever better than that? The HB will kill more MEQ than the TL bolter you lost, and now you have a slim chance of glancing transports if you have no other target. Even in 5th, you trade a small vulnerability to S8/9 weapons for a points decrease and a potent firepower increase and smaller footprint. So even in the meta you describe, the HBAB is a stronger choice.

 

In the case of the meltagun squad with the MMAB I'm not sure you're blaming the right culprit. If you're running meltaguns in a bike squad, you already have to be within 6" anyways - the MMAB just makes it so you have an extra shot within 6", and you have one within 12" now too. From your argument, it seems like you're really saying that meltaguns aren't worth it in a bike squad, so by extension an MMAB isn't either. Again, comparing it to 2 bikes, you trade a single TL bolter for a MM, smaller footprint and small vulnerability to S8/S9 weapons. To the point, why would you ever want a TL bolter instead of a MM? At worst, just ignore the fact you have it and play the squad like normal. You've now increased your killing power vs MEQ, TEQ and given your squad the option to paste transports if no other target is available.

 

I realize you literally wrote the tactica on this and respect your opinion, and largely agree with what you wrote. But here I disagree. I guess having an argument about 5th is moot at this point, but I guess my point is that even without the toughness change the AB is quite viable in a 5-6 man squad.

[ShinyRhino]

It all boils down to personal preference and playstyle. :)