SM Bikers in 6th

[rubix41]

Meltaguns were always wasted when riding alongside the MMAB, because the range bands never matched. You had to be within 6" of the target for all three weapons to be operating at full effectiveness, and I never felt being that close was beneficial for a full squad due to their vulnerabilities to assault.

 

Actually, what I found was that - with Melta gun's - if the MMAB hadn't taken care of the vehicle I was targeting, the melta gun's added little or no benefit due to the missing extra penetration at 12" and I seem to miss the 3+ at the crucial point! So, it usually ended with me dropping a krak/melta bomb on the target or the powerfist doing the job for me.

 

On the flip side, I had better opportunities with HBAB - usually in squadrons when they worked in tandem with Landspeeders (Usually, dual HB's).

 

Probably looking now in dropping fists in favour of melta bombs (due to the new rules)

[ottesoac]

I've got to admit i spend half my 6th edition life changing my mind on an almost daily basis. Everytime i think i have something sussed i spot something different or swap back to an earlier idea, its like one big merry go round. I just can't help but feel, i don't know enough yet.

 

That being said; i feel Sgt, Regular Bike, 2 Plasma Bikes and a MM attack bike may be the way to go. For vehicles you have your MM for av 14 and with glancing being so much better you have 3 weapons that can do this at 24" range. For infantry you have more low ap shooting which is even better now you allocate the wound pools.

 

As for the rest, MM attack bikes seem a better choice than speeders now with only s10 instant deathing them and they both effectively have 2 wounds. A storm talon to combat fliers and for all round duties, and i keep coming back to the idea of belial and 5 thunder hammer terminators with cyclone for some tough to kill scoring.

[rubix41]

As for the rest, MM attack bikes seem a better choice than speeders now with only s10 instant deathing them and they both effectively have 2 wounds. A storm talon to combat fliers and for all round duties, and i keep coming back to the idea of belial and 5 thunder hammer terminators with cyclone for some tough to kill scoring.

 

MM Bikes: Aren't you tempted by the Dual MM Land Speeder then - 2 MM's moving 12" or 1 MM and Twin linked bolters moving 12"? Or how about the now-resurrected Tornado Assault Cannon? The fact that Speeders can jink and keep up with Bikes are making them more the thing to run with Bikers still.

 

Terminators: I am really tempted for the idea of Terminators - keeping them cheap for pts - but I am thinking of adding a Lysander character to get Stubborn and make them more of a Deathstar. However, as pointed out, you can buy another 5 Termie's for the same amount!

[Ricter]

I'm really torn on the Land Speeder vs Attack Bike situation as well. Another point to consider is Land Speeders now eat Interceptor (if they come from reserves) and Skyfire as well, making quad guns eat them up. On the other hand, if you're already running a Storm Talon they may provide good saturation.

[Red Lost Soldier]

I only used Typhoon Speeders in 5th, and even more so now in 6th.

 

Even though we can now fire two weapons regardless of strength on those chassis, the introduction of hull points to speeders is a massive liability with only av10 and 2 points. Once you're within 24", your speeder can die to any other squad in the game, and probably will even with a jink save. So unless you have a suicidal need to kill something valuable, I plan on sticking with HB/Typhoon.

 

In regards to the embed or separate attack bikes, I always embed mine in troops squads and see it more as an upgrade than the dedicated point of the unit. I run either double plasma or double melta, and always go for multi melta. In the former case I use it simply as another low ap shot that can instant death (now you can pick wound groupings, this is even more possible), in the latter it is merely another melta shot with better range. It is simply too good points wise to pass up, compared to two bikes as was pointed out.

 

Also because I favour many speeders, and potentially now a Talon to combat other air, my FA slots are all taken.

 

I have dropped all my power fists though, dangerous now with challenges and base removal rules if you get caught out by a high initiative enemy. May look at putting one back in to ride with the captain though, as marine vs marine melee fights take forever unless you have multiple AP3 or better weapons, and you do not want to be bogged down with bikes.

 

The biggest boost to bikes is the new movement phase, together with wound allocation from shooting. Getting around the side of a unit and sniping out special weapons and characters is very possible with 12" movement, good weapons and picking the wound ground your enemy has to roll on first. Which is where the MM attack bike also comes in, chew through the unit with the bolters then the character can take the ID/low AP wounds, even LoS fails eventually.

 

Also Hammer of Wrath is fun, I managed to squish a wounded Rune Priest with my Captain using it the other night. It is in effect 2 free attacks on the charge (hitting on 4's vs auto hitting) but don't expect it to win you combats by itself.

[Lord Ultimar]

A captain on a bike with artificer armour, storm shield and lightning claw all of sudden, not only makes bikes troops ect but for challenges, he's a terminator that moves 12" a turn with re-rolls an T5 and sports a 3++! is it just me or does anyone else find this scary?

[Lucien Eilam]

I'm really torn on the Land Speeder vs Attack Bike situation as well. Another point to consider is Land Speeders now eat Interceptor (if they come from reserves) and Skyfire as well, making quad guns eat them up. On the other hand, if you're already running a Storm Talon they may provide good saturation.

 

I think people are giving quad-guns more respect than they deserve.

 

Interceptor can only target one unit that's in range and LOS at the end of the Movement phase. And despite its description, Skyfire doesn't make any difference when targeting Skimmers at all.

 

Speeders should be small enough and fast enough to find somewhere they can come on in relevant safety.

[UltraTacSgt]

I apologize if I am hijacking this thread a bit or a bit random with this question but I am a bike noob and you guys seem to know your stuff.

 

My question is if I were to use bikes to complement a mostly footslogging infantry type list (Devs/SniperScouts/Tacs/Assault/w/CC kitted Capt). Could I get good results out of a 200-250pt budget?

I'd like them to be mostly an anti-infantry harassing/skirmishing unit that could whittle down and maybe charge a unit, and that could go for heavy AV in a pinch (even if it was a one way trip). So I'm guessing I'd want to kit them w/ plasma weps and maybe take a combi melta and melta bombs for a risky anti armor move?

 

I don't really know the on table effective difference between the Scout/Marine/Attack Bike options. Any help is appreciated.

[ShinyRhino]

A captain on a bike with artificer armour, storm shield and lightning claw all of sudden, not only makes bikes troops ect but for challenges, he's a terminator that moves 12" a turn with re-rolls an T5 and sports a 3++! is it just me or does anyone else find this scary?

 

He's still better served with a relic blade instead of a lightning claw, as you will be using him for challenges more often than not. Heck you don't really even need the shield anymore, as the number of weapons that can cause instant death to a Biker Captain are few. My biker captain with relic blade and artificer armor was a close combat monster in my trio of 6th Edition games thus far. He's nearly unstoppable by anything short of a character with a force weapon or a 2+/3++ save.

 

I'm really torn on the Land Speeder vs Attack Bike situation as well. Another point to consider is Land Speeders now eat Interceptor (if they come from reserves) and Skyfire as well, making quad guns eat them up. On the other hand, if you're already running a Storm Talon they may provide good saturation.

 

I think people are giving quad-guns more respect than they deserve.

 

Interceptor can only target one unit that's in range and LOS at the end of the Movement phase. And despite its description, Skyfire doesn't make any difference when targeting Skimmers at all.

 

Speeders should be small enough and fast enough to find somewhere they can come on in relevant safety.

 

The quad gun is nothing to sneeze at, especially when placed in a good, defensible position with clear fire lanes. It will take speder squadrons out of the sky with regularity. I deepstruck my speeders in one game, and simply placed them behind a building, out of LOS of the quad gun to avoid the Interceptor shots. Not every table will allow that, though.

 

 

I apologize if I am hijacking this thread a bit or a bit random with this question but I am a bike noob and you guys seem to know your stuff.

 

My question is if I were to use bikes to complement a mostly footslogging infantry type list (Devs/SniperScouts/Tacs/Assault/w/CC kitted Capt). Could I get good results out of a 200-250pt budget?

I'd like them to be mostly an anti-infantry harassing/skirmishing unit that could whittle down and maybe charge a unit, and that could go for heavy AV in a pinch (even if it was a one way trip). So I'm guessing I'd want to kit them w/ plasma weps and maybe take a combi melta and melta bombs for a risky anti armor move?

 

I don't really know the on table effective difference between the Scout/Marine/Attack Bike options. Any help is appreciated.

 

I'm guessing that with that budget, you're aiming for Fast Attack slots over Troops slots. You could pick up a 5-bike unit with attached multimelta attack bike for somewhere in that ballpark, with plasmaguns and a combimelta/meltabomb sergeant for just under the 250 mark. It will be a quick-movingunit that can put the hurt on most any infantry unit in the game, but it needs to be supported. If you throw it out there int he wind as an advance sweeper unit, it will end up toast before it can accomplish much.

[Ricter]

I'm really torn on the Land Speeder vs Attack Bike situation as well. Another point to consider is Land Speeders now eat Interceptor (if they come from reserves) and Skyfire as well, making quad guns eat them up. On the other hand, if you're already running a Storm Talon they may provide good saturation.

 

I think people are giving quad-guns more respect than they deserve.

 

Interceptor can only target one unit that's in range and LOS at the end of the Movement phase. And despite its description, Skyfire doesn't make any difference when targeting Skimmers at all.

 

Speeders should be small enough and fast enough to find somewhere they can come on in relevant safety.

 

My concern really is that lots of people are going to be taking quad-guns to combat fliers, and they happen to be very strong against Land Speeders too. If you aren't taking your own fliers, you can make the quad-gun overcosted, but by bringing Land Speeders you now give it a worthwhile target. Attack Bikes don't have that vulnerability.

 

What are the thoughts on Khan vs Captain (more specifically, Outflanking vs Combat Tactics) in this edition? I see Combat Tactics as primarily useful against assault armies, and with their waning this edition I'm not sure it holds up as well anymore. Outflanking got a minor nerf that may not matter depending on your list (since the only squad you wanted to assault with was a kitted out Command Squad or a suicide Bike squad to melta a vehicle) but has lots of important new advantages - hammer and anvil deployment, limits damage from fliers, and loves the heavier objective focus.

[Rage]

Combat tactics got improved as the bike squads can re-group even with enemies within 6", plus you want to have the option to run away if the worst should happen.

 

Outflank still has it's uses but with the the lack of assualt when coming onto the board plus the auto-lose rule it's a bit tough to voluntarily shrink the number of guys on the battlefield. Bikes should still be fast enough to get around to the sides of armour anyway.

 

The next discussion is whether Khan with his 3+ save but with FC and H&R is better than "Captain 2+" with RB or LC/PF and Combat Tactics. I'd probably go with Khan if I was taking a beefed up command squad otherwise the standard Captain all the way.

 

I've been giving the Quad Cannon some thoughts and it seems that they'll be pretty vulnerable to Drop Podding Sterns (or Terminators just for kicks!) with Flamer & Melta, since many folk will probably be sticking a small squad with it that can be easily erased. Landspeeders do seem to be somewhat of a liability right now, time to give them flying and watch them rule the skies!!

 

Has anybody been using the Turbo boost in the shooting phase successfully? I like it, it allows for No-lose gambles, such as driving up to a transport (about 9-10" away, don't want any grenades giving stealth when I start firing!) ready to gun down the occupants if it gets blown up. If it does, gravy, if not then Turbo Boost away to safety and wait for the next turn to try again with a 4+ cover save to boot.

[Ricter]

Combat tactics got improved as the bike squads can re-group even with enemies within 6", plus you want to have the option to run away if the worst should happen.

 

Sure, but what situations are you actually finding yourself wanting to run away anymore? So far, I've only used it to run away from assaults - it hasn't really helped me against shooting armies in general. And with assaults growing more rare, and our new strengths against them (Overwatch, true t5, etc) I don't think it has as many applications.

 

Outflank still has it's uses but with the the lack of assualt when coming onto the board plus the auto-lose rule it's a bit tough to voluntarily shrink the number of guys on the battlefield. Bikes should still be fast enough to get around to the sides of armour anyway.

 

The auto-lose rule is a good point, but considering half your army still has to be on the board, if you've managed to lose all of that in a single turn, your game probably wasn't going too well in the first place. In my games so far, I've used Outflank to get rear shots I had no other chance of getting. Anything I've deployed normal has been stuck with side armor shots at best, and bolters only work on that rear armor.

 

The next discussion is whether Khan with his 3+ save but with FC and H&R is better than "Captain 2+" with RB or LC/PF and Combat Tactics. I'd probably go with Khan if I was taking a beefed up command squad otherwise the standard Captain all the way.

 

FC took an important hit to assault Command Squad (plasma Command Squad couldn't care less), but H&R is more important than ever, as objectives are critical. I'm liking the idea of being able to get the last say in contesting/claiming objectives. 2+ armor save is now better in assault... but I'm not sure how much that really matters. If you're not taking a Command Squad, who do you pair him with? A regular Bike Squad? They don't exactly want to be in assault.

 

I've been giving the Quad Cannon some thoughts and it seems that they'll be pretty vulnerable to Drop Podding Sterns (or Terminators just for kicks!) with Flamer & Melta, since many folk will probably be sticking a small squad with it that can be easily erased. Landspeeders do seem to be somewhat of a liability right now, time to give them flying and watch them rule the skies!!

 

Quad Cannons would get to shoot at that approaching Sternguard first, so it's not all roses. Also, those are expensive solutions to a 50 point upgrade.

 

Has anybody been using the Turbo boost in the shooting phase successfully? I like it, it allows for No-lose gambles, such as driving up to a transport (about 9-10" away, don't want any grenades giving stealth when I start firing!) ready to gun down the occupants if it gets blown up. If it does, gravy, if not then Turbo Boost away to safety and wait for the next turn to try again with a 4+ cover save to boot.

 

I'm still in 5E and forget about it a lot. Flat out for vehicles I'm remembering at least, and that's very useful.

[ShinyRhino]

I think folks are overestimating the "rarity" of assault armies in 6th. Overwatch isn't as wonderful as some folks think it is, unless you are using Divination to fire at full BS. Any assault unit worth its salt will have numbers or saves to mitigate Overwatch losses.

Charge range being random is a factor, but not enough of one to deny folks from playing assault-based armies. I've seen the Swarmlord and Friends pull off a 9-inch charge, and I've seen an ASM squad fail a 4" charge through cover.

[Rage]

Sure, but what situations are you actually finding yourself wanting to run away anymore? So far, I've only used it to run away from assaults - it hasn't really helped me against shooting armies in general. And with assaults growing more rare, and our new strengths against them (Overwatch, true t5, etc) I don't think it has as many applications.

 

Overwatch is a bonus but even 10 bolter shots twin linked isn't going to stop most charges, with 3 flamers in the unit then maybe...

 

I still think they'll be a good chunk of assault armies out there, the changes have helped shooting armies a bit to survive against them but hasn't destroyed assault that much. Heavy MEQ assault units will laugh at overwatch fire and horde units will just not care!

 

T5 will help survive an assault, it wont help win it so getting to choose to run away is way to useful and with the change to fearless rules it's really a no lose situation as there are no additional wounds if you don't escape. A bike units worst nightmare is being tarpitted, even a combat sqaud of marines will lock them in combat for a while if no power weapons are available...and who puts power weapons on their bike squads anymore!? So being able to choose to fall back out of combat (if you lose) is priceless. The ability to fall back after shooting is rather more situational though, as it's only really worth if it stops a unit assaulting after shooting.

 

The auto-lose rule is a good point, but considering half your army still has to be on the board, if you've managed to lose all of that in a single turn, your game probably wasn't going too well in the first place. In my games so far, I've used Outflank to get rear shots I had no other chance of getting. Anything I've deployed normal has been stuck with side armor shots at best, and bolters only work on that rear armor.

 

Most of the time a player should be mitigating the oppurtunity of flanking like that, if they're not then they've been doing something wrong! A shot at the side armour is usually more than enough considering the number of S7/8 shots bike squads can kick out vs the usual AV11 that most tanks have. I only take 4 + 1 squads so 3 bolters doesn't really make much difference compared to the 2 plasma and 1 MM.

 

FC took an important hit to assault Command Squad (plasma Command Squad couldn't care less), but H&R is more important than ever, as objectives are critical. I'm liking the idea of being able to get the last say in contesting/claiming objectives. 2+ armor save is now better in assault... but I'm not sure how much that really matters. If you're not taking a Command Squad, who do you pair him with? A regular Bike Squad? They don't exactly want to be in assault.

 

Shooting command sqauds just aren't worth the points compared to a regular one. The difference is about 85pts, which is pretty significant! Just place a Captain with a normal Bike squad, they're perfectly capable of being used as a sweeping up assault unit. The captain provides the clout with a few extra hits from the red shirts, I'm not expecting them to crush full sized squads but they're more than capable of killing off a combat squad.

 

Quad Cannons would get to shoot at that approaching Sternguard first, so it's not all roses. Also, those are expensive solutions to a 50 point upgrade.

 

Good point.

[Ricter]

I think folks are overestimating the "rarity" of assault armies in 6th. Overwatch isn't as wonderful as some folks think it is, unless you are using Divination to fire at full BS. Any assault unit worth its salt will have numbers or saves to mitigate Overwatch losses.

Charge range being random is a factor, but not enough of one to deny folks from playing assault-based armies. I've seen the Swarmlord and Friends pull off a 9-inch charge, and I've seen an ASM squad fail a 4" charge through cover.

 

I'm not saying Overwatch is wonderful, but hitting on 6's is better than not shooting at all. The point still stands that it's generally worse to assault us than it was in 5E, and we're generally better off in assault than we were. It may not be much, but it's still there.

 

And there are a lot of assault units worth their salt that are not keen on Overwatch - see Slugga Boyz and Wyches. Sure, the Slugga Boyz and other large units may have the size to swallow the casualities, but since casualties are from the front it can very much result in a failed assault.

 

Overwatch is a bonus but even 10 bolter shots twin linked isn't going to stop most charges, with 3 flamers in the unit then maybe...

 

I still think they'll be a good chunk of assault armies out there, the changes have helped shooting armies a bit to survive against them but hasn't destroyed assault that much. Heavy MEQ assault units will laugh at overwatch fire and horde units will just not care!

 

Generally speaking, the consensus I've seen between competitive players about competitive play is that assault has gotten somewhat worse, and transport assault is significantly worse. All things equal, this means that there will be less assault armies. By assault armies, I'm not talking about your standard mech-MEQ that runs one terminator squad. I'm refering to armies of Khorne Beserkers, Ork Sluggaz, Hormagaunts, etc.

 

And again, I'm not stating the overwatch is going to stop most charges - but it will give us extra shots. Extra shots in this case that come at no cost compared to 5E. Thus, we are more dangerous to assault, if only by a small margin.

 

T5 will help survive an assault, it wont help win it so getting to choose to run away is way to useful and with the change to fearless rules it's really a no lose situation as there are no additional wounds if you don't escape. A bike units worst nightmare is being tarpitted, even a combat sqaud of marines will lock them in combat for a while if no power weapons are available...and who puts power weapons on their bike squads anymore!? So being able to choose to fall back out of combat (if you lose) is priceless. The ability to fall back after shooting is rather more situational though, as it's only really worth if it stops a unit assaulting after shooting.

 

Sure, but tarpitting is less valid than it has been in the past. First, if it's something tough, we can run away automatically anyways. Secondly, those weak assault units that are just assaulting us for the tarpit factor aren't designed for assault - which means they'll have more to fear from overwatch, and likely more vulnerable to failing their assault. Further, most of those units use rapid fire weapons, which means they can't shoot as at all if they want to assault us, like in previous editions.

 

Is the ability priceless in those situations? Yes, I'd agree. But how often are those situations coming up anymore? Against shooting armies, I'm seeing them appear less and less as people adjust to 6E.

 

Most of the time a player should be mitigating the oppurtunity of flanking like that, if they're not then they've been doing something wrong! A shot at the side armour is usually more than enough considering the number of S7/8 shots bike squads can kick out vs the usual AV11 that most tanks have. I only take 4 + 1 squads so 3 bolters doesn't really make much difference compared to the 2 plasma and 1 MM.

 

I only take 4 + 1 squads as well, but some of them have flamers for anti-horde (since I have no anti-horde anywhere else). In that case, you have 10 TL bolter shots and say, 1 MM (in the bare bones squads). On average, those TL bolters get 8.88 hits -> 1.48 glances, almost wrecking a transport by itself, and wrecking most battle tanks with two squads with no special weapons. Even just 3 bolters net .88 glances by themselves. I feel that's a powerful shift - it means you've gone from, on average, .31 AV 10 kills to .64 (very rough napkin math, but if anything I underestimated the improvement). Those 5 TL bolters over double your MM's killing power (on AV 10 from behind, but still).

 

And I disagree heartily about being able to successfully mitigate outflanking as easily as you seem to imply. I run several blast and large blast weapons, as well as flamers and the like. Between those, the larger amount of cover, the greater difficulty of getting units cover otherwise, hammer and anvil deployment and increased focus on even more objectives, it's become harder to protect yourself against outflanking. The common tactics to do so are easily punished by the large number of templates I run, and fortifications only make outflanking more valuable, as it forces your opponent to reconsider his deployment to cover advances from three directions instead of one.

 

Don't forget, mobility is the prize posession of the bike army - if you're forcing him into an even smaller area, limiting his firing arcs, and moving him away from objectives, you are already controlling the game, even if you don't get those rear armor shots. That is an important advantage.

Shooting command sqauds just aren't worth the points compared to a regular one. The difference is about 85pts, which is pretty significant! Just place a Captain with a normal Bike squad, they're perfectly capable of being used as a sweeping up assault unit. The captain provides the clout with a few extra hits from the red shirts, I'm not expecting them to crush full sized squads but they're more than capable of killing off a combat squad.

 

I've been going back and forth about command squads, too. I think their price tag hike really kills them.

 

The points difference is closer than that - 65. Essentially, you trade those points and the ability to be a scoring unit for +2 attacks per model and FnP, as well as access to two additional special weapons. That's a pretty big bonus for assault, especially since you'll nearly always get that FnP save. The problem I'm seeing is that you never really want to be in assault with a bike army in the first place.

 

The shooting command squad does provide focus, but you're essentially wasting its bonus attacks then, and FnP isn't as good against shooting as it is in assault now. You're essentially paying 65 points to be a little tougher against shooting and the ability to put 4 plasma in one unit. For that cost, I could just upgrade 2 other units to have plasma, running 8 instead of 4 and not lose scoring.

 

My concern with the Captain in a normal squad, however, is that the unit doesn't really beat much in assault - it's worse than a tactical squad with a foot Captain in assault, and that unit scares exactly no one. If only bikers had bolt pistol + chainsword by default.

[Rage]

Sure, but tarpitting is less valid than it has been in the past. First, if it's something tough, we can run away automatically anyways. Secondly, those weak assault units that are just assaulting us for the tarpit factor aren't designed for assault - which means they'll have more to fear from overwatch, and likely more vulnerable to failing their assault. Further, most of those units use rapid fire weapons, which means they can't shoot as at all if they want to assault us, like in previous editions.

 

How can we auto-run away? The auto-run only works if we can't damage them, sadly Marines got a bit boned in this regard as they all come with Krak grenades so can make S6 attacks which will wound anything of damage anything barring a AV13 dreadnought.

 

A tarpit unit has nothing to worry about from overwatch, they either have the numbers to survive a couple fo casualities on the way in or are tough enough to shrug off any damage. A failed charge is always going to be a possibility but them is the risks, though most people will still be looking to make those charge at 6" just to be sure.

 

A bike squad is expensive and it's role is firepower, I would rather send in a small tactical squad to tar pit them than fire my rapid firing guns at them, I believe I can still fire my pistols at them on the way in if I really want to...but then I might kill enough to cause them to combat tactics away! Unless you start shelling out for PF's (WHY!?) you could be stuck there for a good long time.

 

I agree that assault has got a bit worse, it's no longer always the best option and with Sergeants being able to be picked out in challenges or shooting the purchase of PW or PF is a liability so the standard troops are no longer going to assault on a regular basis. On the otherhand an army with an assault unit now has a bit more of a free reign to bring the pain against these squads because of the lack of thos PW's or PF's. As far as I'm concerned proper assault units got a lot better while other units got a lot worse at assault.

 

I don't generally have a lot of blast templates (though I may get myself into the Thunderfire gang!), I'm usually using 2 Dakka Preds for Horde control with a LasPred and MM/PG squads for tank killing. I'd still of thought that you can easily set up to mitigate outflanking or at least counter-attack and destroy those outflankers, I'm not sold but I'll give it a try at some point. I still think combat tactics is better overall but the addition of scout bikers might be doable for the rear shooting with grenade launchers, only 105pt for a squad of 3...suppose something has to go in my fast attack slots ;-)

 

My concern with the Captain in a normal squad, however, is that the unit doesn't really beat much in assault - it's worse than a tactical squad with a foot Captain in assault, and that unit scares exactly no one. If only bikers had bolt pistol + chainsword by default.

 

I only use him as a mopping up unit, preying on the weak and wounded. The last place I'm sending any Bike squad is into an assault with a full strength unit or a CC unit, at maximum I only want them in CC for 1 turn before being able to move on.

 

You end up having two choices, spend a truck load of points on a command squad to make your captain a killing machine or use him as a backup for your bike squads to get them out of trouble. Though to be honest it's still very early days of 6E and it may turn out that the kitted out command squad on bikes is about as good as it gets for an assault unit.

 

Maybe all they need is a Champion (for challenges) and a dude with SS/LC and that's it. Do you need much more for most assault duties? I don't mean matching up against the proper Assault units of another army, just for clearing out a full tactical squad from an objective.

 

An extra CCW would be a beautiful thing...but then so would all SM bike units getting Hit&Run as standard ;-)

[rubix41]

My concern with the Captain in a normal squad, however, is that the unit doesn't really beat much in assault - it's worse than a tactical squad with a foot Captain in assault, and that unit scares exactly no one. If only bikers had bolt pistol + chainsword by default.

 

Unfortunately, the Captain on a bike is a sunk cost for a biker army. However, I am kind of using him to "soak" more and more incoming fire than usual - is anyone doing that? Because of the artificer armor / iron halo and +3 wounds, it's usually the Captain and the Attack Bike that's taking more incoming fire by being in the first rank more?

[ShinyRhino]

My concern with the Captain in a normal squad, however, is that the unit doesn't really beat much in assault - it's worse than a tactical squad with a foot Captain in assault, and that unit scares exactly no one. If only bikers had bolt pistol + chainsword by default.

 

Unfortunately, the Captain on a bike is a sunk cost for a biker army. However, I am kind of using him to "soak" more and more incoming fire than usual - is anyone doing that? Because of the artificer armor / iron halo and +3 wounds, it's usually the Captain and the Attack Bike that's taking more incoming fire by being in the first rank more?

 

The Captain tends to kill plenty all by his lonesome. Definitely enough to turn the tide against S4 or less enemies. The trick is keeping the sergeant alive on the way in so that he can soak up a challenge, or issue one to keep the Captain's attacks on the enemy squad for combat res.

I don't tend to keep the Captain at the forefront though, as there are plenty of units out there that can put enough AP2 on him to put him down in a turn.

[Ricter]

How can we auto-run away? The auto-run only works if we can't damage them, sadly Marines got a bit boned in this regard as they all come with Krak grenades so can make S6 attacks which will wound anything of damage anything barring a AV13 dreadnought.

 

A tarpit unit has nothing to worry about from overwatch, they either have the numbers to survive a couple fo casualities on the way in or are tough enough to shrug off any damage. A failed charge is always going to be a possibility but them is the risks, though most people will still be looking to make those charge at 6" just to be sure.

 

A bike squad is expensive and it's role is firepower, I would rather send in a small tactical squad to tar pit them than fire my rapid firing guns at them, I believe I can still fire my pistols at them on the way in if I really want to...but then I might kill enough to cause them to combat tactics away! Unless you start shelling out for PF's (WHY!?) you could be stuck there for a good long time.

 

Hey, I'm not suggesting any PF's anymore. Auto-run away was a reference to AV 13 dreadnoughts, I forgot you could use Krak grenades on dreadnoughts much easier now. I think this conversation is going in circles, though. What units are you even refering to? I'm going to assume you mean things like tactical squads and their rough equivalents. I'm also going to assume you mean units that won't wipe the bikes in a round, because that's a moot point anyways. We'll use tactical squads.

 

Since you can't assault from transports anymore (anything coming from assault ramps is going to wipe you in a round anyways), you're talking about being assaulted on foot. I think this is key, too. No more can a dinky combat squad that's been hiding in a rhino all game dump out next to your bike squad and assault you with a pfist you never got to shoot at. Foot assault, on average, is only a threat distance of 13", in ideal conditions. It seems like, to me, there are generally two possibilities that put you in this range (except unusual circumstances).

 

1) You moved within 12" last turn to rapid fire. This unit now has taken lots of bolter fire and plasma/melta/flamer fire. An average MEQ tac, for example, will have lost .88 (bolters) + 2.22 (plasma) + .56 (multi-melta) + .31 (bolter overwatch) + .56 (plasma overwatch) + .14 (multi-melta overwatch) = 4.67 MEQ. Before any blows are struck. Your Combat Squad'd Tactical Squad is likely dead, broken or going to be beaten in assault. If this isn't enough to get the job done, why are you there in the first place? They can't assault over 18" in a turn, and your firepower is at range 24". Pre-measuring here is key. Further, you must actually lose combat in order for Combat Tactics to kick in. If it's something like a Tactical Squad, they're actually not likely to do so after you've shot them up.

 

2) You moved forward to attack another target that you had appropriate odds to destroy, putting yourself in range of the Tactical Squad, 10 man. Again, you're probably within 12". First, you can often 'bait' here. With premeasuring and random assault ranges, you can get some players to go for 7-9 assaults, get a free overwatch, cost them rapid fire weapons and have them fail their assault. This baiting didn't used to be as good. They shoot you up and kill about 1.5 bikes, and then tarpit you. Would it be nice to get out of the assault? Sure. But if they just rapid fire'd instead, they'd kill 3 bikes now, and that's ignoring the heavy weapon.

 

The worst version of this situation is getting assault by a 5 man combat squad you couldn't afford to / didn't shoot at (as the 10 man tactical could just shoot you to death instead). Even still, on overwatch, you're killing one, dropping it down to 4 men. The problem here, however, is that you won't actually lose. So Combat Tactics doesn't help.

 

Other possibilities are either rare or as a result of player mistakes (forgot to premeasure, forgot to turboboost, didn't see the unit there, etc). I'm not saying that Combat Tactics is useless or even bad. But the situations that it helped in are going to be more uncommon, and we are less weak in assaults than the past. T5, power armor and less power fists means a lot more combats are going to be draws or we may even win, rendering Combat Tactics moot. I think many people are still in a 5E mindset with regards to assault.

 

Partially I am just debating this for the sake of it - everyone seems to be over-looking outflanking entirely, and I don't think it is nearly as easy as a choice. I go back and forth about it a lot and having been testing with and without it. But the more I play those objective missions, the more I love being able to drop squads right within ideal range and location.

 

I agree that assault has got a bit worse, it's no longer always the best option and with Sergeants being able to be picked out in challenges or shooting the purchase of PW or PF is a liability so the standard troops are no longer going to assault on a regular basis. On the otherhand an army with an assault unit now has a bit more of a free reign to bring the pain against these squads because of the lack of thos PW's or PF's. As far as I'm concerned proper assault units got a lot better while other units got a lot worse at assault.

 

I agree with other units getting worse at assault, but I think it's pretty rough for proper assault units too. They still have to deal with random charge distances, overwatch, no assaulting from transports, FC nerf, etc etc. This means less guys make it to assault than before.

 

I don't generally have a lot of blast templates (though I may get myself into the Thunderfire gang!), I'm usually using 2 Dakka Preds for Horde control with a LasPred and MM/PG squads for tank killing. I'd still of thought that you can easily set up to mitigate outflanking or at least counter-attack and destroy those outflankers, I'm not sold but I'll give it a try at some point. I still think combat tactics is better overall but the addition of scout bikers might be doable for the rear shooting with grenade launchers, only 105pt for a squad of 3...suppose something has to go in my fast attack slots ;-)

 

Give it a try. Looking at it on paper and actually making your opponents counter it on the tabletop is a world of difference. For example, barring heavy terrain, in Hammer and Anvil deployment, there literally is not a spot you may be on the board you can't be shot at by an AB MM within 12". That alone forces your opponent to move his troops in ways he would not normally.

 

I agree, FA slots are loaded with good options, while HS and Elites don't have as many. And I won't get started on troops...

 

I only use him as a mopping up unit, preying on the weak and wounded. The last place I'm sending any Bike squad is into an assault with a full strength unit or a CC unit, at maximum I only want them in CC for 1 turn before being able to move on.

 

An extra CCW would be a beautiful thing...but then so would all SM bike units getting Hit&Run as standard ;-)

 

That seems like an expensive use of 200ish points. I guess I'm just used to other HQ choices being useful, instead of forced to take one just to make the army work. If I could get a Chapter Master or just about any other HQ on a Bike and get the "Bikes as Troops" ability I'd probably feel better.

 

Or at least, Skilled Rider and Move through Cover for every IC with a Bike would satisfy me.

 

 

I think not using the Captain out in front is a waste - between T5 and 3++ and 2+ LOS, he gets out of nearly all the AP 2 fire he needs to. He's nearly the textbook character to do this trick with, just short FnP (which he can get) or a rerollable save (new psykers maybe?).

[ShinyRhino]

Sure, but tarpitting is less valid than it has been in the past. First, if it's something tough, we can run away automatically anyways. Secondly, those weak assault units that are just assaulting us for the tarpit factor aren't designed for assault - which means they'll have more to fear from overwatch, and likely more vulnerable to failing their assault. Further, most of those units use rapid fire weapons, which means they can't shoot as at all if they want to assault us, like in previous editions.

 

How can we auto-run away? The auto-run only works if we can't damage them, sadly Marines got a bit boned in this regard as they all come with Krak grenades so can make S6 attacks which will wound anything of damage anything barring a AV13 dreadnought.

 

I think the quote refers to Combat Tactics, which allows you to auto-fail that Morale test, provided you lost combat.

[rubix41]

My concern with the Captain in a normal squad, however, is that the unit doesn't really beat much in assault - it's worse than a tactical squad with a foot Captain in assault, and that unit scares exactly no one. If only bikers had bolt pistol + chainsword by default.

 

Unfortunately, the Captain on a bike is a sunk cost for a biker army. However, I am kind of using him to "soak" more and more incoming fire than usual - is anyone doing that? Because of the artificer armor / iron halo and +3 wounds, it's usually the Captain and the Attack Bike that's taking more incoming fire by being in the first rank more?

 

The Captain tends to kill plenty all by his lonesome. Definitely enough to turn the tide against S4 or less enemies. The trick is keeping the sergeant alive on the way in so that he can soak up a challenge, or issue one to keep the Captain's attacks on the enemy squad for combat res. I don't tend to keep the Captain at the forefront though, as there are plenty of units out there that can put enough AP2 on him to put him down in a turn.

 

I must have missed that - I thought that the Sergeant couldn't challenge - but it's not a bad idea. A Melta Bomb / Krak Grenade in the face is still very dangerous after all. In 5e, my Sarge was very much an ablative wound so it might be a little interesting now. If it's a torrent of AP2 fire, more than likely plasma guns, the Iron Halo or the Storm Shield usually stops it in the track - 1 wound captain is still a dangerous individual - but it's nice to see I am not alone in using the Captain as armour...

 

I think not using the Captain out in front is a waste - between T5 and 3++ and 2+ LOS, he gets out of nearly all the AP 2 fire he needs to. He's nearly the textbook character to do this trick with, just short FnP (which he can get) or a rerollable save (new psykers maybe?).

 

Talking about psyker's - I don't know if anyone is running a Librarian on a bike - have you seen what happens if you pull off Invisibility on a biker unit?! - but I have found it very hard to do it in 5e because the shooting phase seems a little underwhelming but maybe not so now because it could be a lot of of bolter's followed by an AP2 Smite. However, I do find the lack of synergy due to the nerf on Psychic Hoods and possibly the need for the Epistol. an issue or am I missing something now?

[Lucien Eilam]

The quad gun is nothing to sneeze at, especially when placed in a good, defensible position with clear fire lanes. It will take speder squadrons out of the sky with regularity. I deepstruck my speeders in one game, and simply placed them behind a building, out of LOS of the quad gun to avoid the Interceptor shots. Not every table will allow that, though.

 

What I mean is, the fact it has Interceptor doesn't necessarily make it any more of a threat than autocannons have always been to Land Speeders. People talk about them like they're guaranteed to be able to shoot at and destroy the squadron before it gets to do anything. In reality, they're more likely to simply limit the places a squadron can finish their first move. The way terrain setup works now, and with the quantities specified, it's extremely unlikely that there won't be at least a few spots the quad-gun can't cover.

[Geser]

What are you think about allbike? What about captain (relic, shield, bike) and command squad (3 power weapon, champion)? What are you think about troops (5 bikes with attack bike with multimeltas or heavy bolters). And what about anti-aircraft? May be Imperial Guard (primaris psyker, 10 veterans with meltas and Hydras)?

 

Sorry for my English, I'm not from English-speaking country.

[breng77]

I think bike based armies are quite good in the edition, not really all bike but there are a number of tricks you can pull with bikes, and allies etc.

[ShinyRhino]

There are a couple other threads in this forum about that exact topic. Scroll down a few pages and you'll find them.