Thoughts on 6th Ed after first battle

[Gabriel1303]

Just had a whole saturday playing 40k with my mates testing the new 6th Edition rules. Here are some of my initial thoughts after 1 game on the new rules and BA. Hope this helps as part of our discussion on BA and 6th and how we can produce fun competitive lists.

 

Have to say overall im very pleased with the new edition. Games felt smoother (after we got used to group rolling during combat) and fast paced.

 

My friends took an ork horde army, Khârn bike list and a tyranid MC list.

 

Rather than try to find combinations right off the bat i decided to choose 1 unit of each type for a 1500 point game and see how they fair. My list was as follows

 

Dante

5 Sang guard with banner

1 Attack Bike with MM

Baal with assault cannon and HB

Predator with autocanon and laz canon sponsons

Vindicator

1 tactical squad in rhino. Power weapon, flamer, Missile launcher

1 assault squad in rhino Lightning claw storm shield, melta gun

Corbulo

 

I would play Dante using a power axe as personally as i first mentioned when this debate came out i believe hitting with AP2 at S6 on the charge via priest or S5 normally is a big differentiator

I wanted to see how vulnerable vehicles were

I wanted to test out the tacticals with their improved shooting.

 

My thoughts

 

- +2 save is the king of 6th edition. Dante and the Sang guard are no longer afraid of power weapons. In all of the games over the weekend the +2 saves made a huge difference to the game.

- FNP is still awesome, the fact that you can take for all non ID hits is a big buff in my opinion. Dante was still standing there taking rending hits off a brood lord and laughed them off. Priests are still important in my books

- The axe. In my view this makes Dante rather lethal. PW no longer affect dante so he is quite capable of sitting there taking all the hits on this +2 save then 5+ fnp and if some go wrong hes got 4 wounds. If its a power fist then use look out sir. in return dantes axe at AP2 just chewed through challenges.

- Replacing power fists on sergeants in marine squads. PFs used to be my stable go to, but now any sensible player will challenge with a character and take that fist out of the game then next turn eat through the squad with no concerns. Previously the fist would be the thing the character was afraid of and made the difference in combats, now i think hes just too vulnerable. I decided to try power weapons instead as they could be used to pull out the fists. I also tooled up one with a SS. Unfortunately i didnt really get to use them much so havent made up my mind. The reason i didnt get to use them will come clear later.

- Attack bike - awesome, i will be taking more. The speed, the MM, the toughness 5 so no ID is great. he backed up Dante in a mass fight with dante a brood lord and loads of genstealers to prevent all the support rerolls the genestealers would give the BL. He stayed in combat for 2 turns helping out. I loved him

- Vehicles. I was expecting these to be tissue boxes but in all honesty they weren't. Admittedly if an enemy focus fires on them they go down, but they would anyway. ONe thing that always frustrated me in 5th was being repeatedly glanced and stunned so i couldnt do anything with the preds. Now yes i loose a few hull points but i can function to 100% capacity until it goes down. I loved that and in the first couple of turns i really dished out some pain to those MCs I am still thinking there is a place in my lists for the LC, AC pred. same for the baal

- Vindacator. 3 big things here for me. Full strength hit if the template touches you, moving 12 and firing 24", and cover now being 5+ rather than 4+ means these are deadly. They wont last the game out but while alive they will really hurt

 

The big downer for me was the much loved rhino. I will test more games but from the results of all of our games the day of the rhino is coming to an end. Dont get me wrong being able to rush up the field 24" turn 1 is great but it takes 2 turns after that to disembark and then assault. That makes the unit redundant and was why in my games one unit hardly got out at all.

 

The fact that my opponent commented that he would rather not shoot the rhino because if he did it meant i would disembark and charge next turn vs leave the rhino alone knowing next turn my men could only disembark and not charge. So not shooting becomes an advantage for my oppoent...???. This suggests to me that something is not right.

 

I love overwatch and snap fire. My tactical squad ML did a fantastic job firing from the hip - hitting on 2 separate occasions via snapshot. And being able to move the squad but leave the ML guy still to shoot as normal was great.

 

Overwatch highlight for me was when the hive tyrant with 1 wound left charged dante. oh oh. Wait i can overwatch cant i - sure he said. Rolled a 6, then a 4. Hive tyrant disappeared. What a great moment.

 

Challenges - i like the idea. its an epic fight and the focus of the battle. In practise i found it slowed the game down. If your characters have the +2 saves and EW its going to be a tarpit. Your opponent can also challenge with his sergeant to sacrifice him and delay combat by 1 turn. Also some characters are completely broken in challenges- Arjac for example was unstoppable all weekend. Still i think strategies to cope with this will help

 

Another big thing for me was fearless was actually a good thing now rather than a disadvantage. All the gaunts staying in the fight and not having to take fearless saves made them really good.

 

Overall, i love the rules and im already thinking of new tactics. I also loved the way that shotting takes off the nearest target. This made positioning so important and the loss of a sergeant or melta gun gunn because he got too close to the enemy or a template going off becomes dramatic. I always felt it was odd in 5th saying, ok he takes a wound but i'll loose the naked guy at the back. Now positioning is everything.

 

Really upset by not being able to DOA everything but it also hurts other armies. My friend has a lethal deepstriking nid list which did well in recent tournies but its now defunct. Same with my friends white scar bike list

 

I will be looking to drop the rhinos but how to i advance. Options im considering are

 

- Lots of attack bikes leading the way as a wall with assault marines with priests behind providing fnp to the bikers

- Cheap razor backs either empty or with 5 men to provide a wall behind which the assault marines follow

- Drop pods - but i feel you lose some flexibility with that.

- I will be testing dante more as so far he and his Sang guard unit were amazing.

 

+2 saves rule. Heres the star of the show for me

 

 

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/warpedstorm/40k/IMG_0664.jpg

 

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/warpedstorm/40k/IMG_0659.jpg

 

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/warpedstorm/40k/IMG_0658.jpg

[Morticon]

Shot for the thoughts matey.

 

You may however want to check out Page 23 of the BA codex and read the "Wargear" section where Dante's axe is listed as Unique.

[Morticon]

(KILLER paint job by the way!)

[Gabriel1303]

Shot for the thoughts matey.

 

You may however want to check out Page 23 of the BA codex and read the "Wargear" section where Dante's axe is listed as Unique.

 

Thanks.

 

Ah didn't know this debate has reached a conclusion. Just reread the original thread. Good to know, either way im happy with the way dante performs. Hes great.

 

Also didnt want this to turn into another axe, non axe discussion :)

 

Still want to find a way to support all my jump packing assault marines behind some kindof mobile cover. The more i think on it the more i like the idea of assault bikes leading the charge.

[Leksington]

Shot for the thoughts matey.

 

You may however want to check out Page 23 of the BA codex and read the "Wargear" section where Dante's axe is listed as Unique.

The RAW lawyers are still waiting for the Jury to come back on that one. :) See my response in the rules forum thread.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Thanks for the info! I haven't been able to get a game of 6th in yet so it's nice to see some experience from others so at least I have a direction of where to start. I love Dante and his winged friends, so it's good to see them do so well.

[Joasht]

I played my first game of 6th over the weekend and came to some conclusions similar to you; FnP is sweet this edition since it lasts through most forms of damage, and Sanguinary Guard are positively awesome this edition; AP2 weapons aren't exactly common, and many are either on guns (so you can still hug cover etc. on your way in) and most AP2 melee weapons are slow.

 

Also, what I noticed is that bikes are downright awesome this edition. Between their increased survivability even right out in the open (Jink), S8/9 no longer one-shotting them (especially great on Attack Bikes, but not entirely useless on normal bikes since FnP would still work) and their improved melee capabilities on the charge (free auto-hitting I10 S4 hit...why not?), these things are going to be the center of my army for this edition, until I find something that works even better than them for my playstyle.

[Gabriel1303]

So my mind has been racing since the games on saturday on what i can do to replace the rhinos and still provide a delivery mechanism for my assault squads. And i had a thought - attack bikes.

 

How does this sound. Deploy a wall of 2 units of 3 attack bikes in a line. Behind that a unit of sang guard, dante, and 2 units of assault marines with some priests.

 

Bikes move up 12 inches in the movement phase closely followed by the jump packers. In the assault phase the bikes turbo boost another say 8-10 inches and the jump packers run to keep up.

 

I now have a wall of 2 wound T5 bikers with a 4+ jink saves and a 5+ fnp. If the enemy decide to target the units behind the sang guard have the 2+ save 5+ fnp. Next turn the bikers peel off to open up the vehicles and the jump packers charge straight in.

 

They have cover and are not slowed by disembarking.

 

I can back this up either with ac/lc preds or even better a unit of honour guard with plasma guns. Depending on the oppoent dante could even deploy with these, placing them exactly where iwant them to take out a threat. Bye bye termies.

 

Only issue is it is very short ranged and assault focused and would struggle with flyers. But i love the idea of those attack bikes roring ahead with the jump packers following.

 

Any potential for this kind of list do you think?

[Morticon]

Any potential for this kind of list do you think?

 

This was the basis of the "Blood Angel Rodeo" lists in 5th ed, and they worked VERY well. It now works better on some fronts since the attack bikes arent instant popped, but the cover save they provide to troops behind them is a bit less.

[Nachocuban]

I have played 2 500 point games over the last 2 days, 1v1v1 and 1v1v1v1 using the 4th special mission in the back of the BRB.

 

First game I used Dante (using a unique axe) Sang priest, with a 5 man RAS. And a 4 man footslogging Bolter DC.

 

Second game was 3 5 man RAS, and a Reclusiarch.

 

Opponents were Tau and SW in both games, and add in Sisters in the 2nd.

 

Dante was a machine, even after losing his entire bodyguard he tabled the wolves solo. Then charged the Tau, killing the commander, without ever taking a wound. In turn 6, i got tank shocked. and thought, wth, a 5 penetrates on a 2D6, rolled a 4, Dante died, to a Devilfish.... I know, I know, no reason to death or glory. I just got greedy. I wont do that again...

 

The Deathcompany were amazing as well, with out having to chase whatever, they just marched up the field at the tau, and shot them to death, losing only 1 model, before wiping the kroot off the board. I think they have gotten stronger, and might even be worth putting Jump packs on them, with bolters.

 

The priest was pretty much as useful as 5th edition. I will still be including them in 90% of my lists.

 

I lost, but would have won, if i didn't do death or glory.

 

Game 2, I didn't stand a chance, 5 man RAS vs 10 man sisters squad, my initial assualt puttered out, and got shot to death. 2nd RAS squad attempted to charge a 6 man grey hunter squad, snake eyes, shot to death...

 

The 3rd RAS with the Reclusiarch, Deepstriked near the Tau, got a few shots off, but besided killing the Tau commander, did little else, oh, and I rolled 2's on every single Plasma shot I ever rolled... Eventually massed fire brought me down.

 

 

 

Overall, I think DC got stronger, Priests got a bit of a buff(not singled out) Death company owned the day, saved 5 FNP saves from AP2 weapons. RAS's i don't know If I can be bothered to field them in they are under 8 models, they are just to squishy when attempting to assault a non-CC unit massed overwatch messed me up. Grenades helped ALOT, esp assaulting a building. I wish I would have remembered I could use them to shoot.

 

Sisters got useful again, their travesty of a codex, actually makes sense now, I'm thankful they didn't' bring Celestine, OMG shes scary and cheap.

 

Also, Mysterious forests. lol, our gaming groups first casualty in 6th edition, was to a leaf, A brain leaf forest to be precise. SW rune priest walks in the woods alone. Fails his leadship test. and commences to use his Force axe on himself. Great Laughs all around. Needles to say, he didn't enter the forest alone, or with his HQ in game 2.

[SevenExxes]

Sanguinary Guard are awesome ... except they lack endurance. A five man squad is still a five man squad.

 

Landspeeders are great fun. I used two typhoon landspeeders and still had one at the end of turn 3. (That was the end of that game due to time restrictions) I'm thinking of running 2 squads of 3, one as typhoons the other squad as tornados with the assault cannon set up.

That's 6 hull points with a constant 5+ cover save (Jink it baby!) 4+ if you flat out, immune to shaken/stunned thanks to squadron rules, can move 12" and fire all weapons. Landspeeders seem awesome. I wish I ran my three typhoons instead of The Sanguinor yesterday.

 

Stormravens are king of the skies ... unless you face Necrons. I hate Necrons. Necrons make me (black) rage.

 

Death Company are actually useful. A 3 man team that included Lemartes, a hammer and a power sword ruined the Necrons day. After the Necrons ruined the Sanguinary Guard's day and the Stormraven's day. But only after the Stormraven took out the two Doom Scythes on the same turn it entered the game. That was pretty sweet.

[Morticon]

That's 6 hull points with a constant 5+ cover save (Jink it baby!) 4+ if you flat out, immune to shaken/stunned thanks to squadron rules, can move 12" and fire all weapons.

 

old rules that!