Deathstar Units/Combos & BA Solutions

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Blood Angels have their work cut-out for them in regards to dealing with several deathstar units/combos which 6th edition rules&allies have reinvigorated or created.

 

In this thread, post up which Deathstar unit/combo YOU are most concerned about, and the BA community can discuss on the best tools to combat them. Pre-emptively, don't forget to include Forgeworld items too.

 

 

 

For me, the bugbear is the Nob Bikerz unit: new and improved with whole-unit Look Out Sir, FnP and ignore-ID which work through Str8-9, overwatching dakkaguns and no need for unique equipment loadouts to invoke multiwound model shenanigans. BA Missile-launchers, meltaguns/mulitmeltas and plasmaguns are all inefficient ways to handle this unit now under 6thed.

[Gabriel1303]

After todays games and my recent experience the most feared deathstar for me is a drop podding arjac with a unit of grey hunters.

 

You shoot it, you charge it. He overwatches, gets counter attack, he pulls the banner and hes then getting a 2+/3++ save rerolling all ones so he can now save most of his squad.

 

He will likely challenge you if you dont him so hes hitting you with 5 attacks, hitting on 3's wounding on 2s rerolling ones. Thats your super dooper hq gone in one assault. Ive not been able to even touch him.

 

In our today he took out a dreadnight, a grand master then butchered the gk terminator squad.

 

My response - let him go first or use your fast movement and get the heck out of there.

[mlund]

Psyker Battle Squad + Primaris Psyker w/ Warp Scream. Here's -9 Ld at range 36. Oh, by the way, take 3d6 wounds with no armor or cover saves. Hope you're awfully good at rolling 6's for Deny The Witch.

 

Point. Click. Delete for entire squads of my marines without any attack rolls. Those guys have to die immediately.

 

- Marty Lund

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Psyker Battle Squad + Primaris Psyker w/ Warp Scream. Here's -9 Ld at range 36. Oh, by the way, take 3d6 wounds with no armor or cover saves. Hope you're awfully good at rolling 6's for Deny The Witch.

 

Point. Click. Delete for entire squads of my marines without any attack rolls. Those guys have to die immediately.

 

- Marty Lund

 

Not a very Blood Angel-type solution, but certainly a solution. A 1/2 Blood Angel version would be Psyker Battle Squad with BA Librarian Fear of the Darkness. Less OP but more Blood Angel.

 

The internet invented this combo about three days ago (I saw it first on Faeit) and like all amazing ideas it has spread like wildfire-- but this in and of itself is a "Deathstar Combo" too.

 

For me, it precludes the need for a Ld10 Psychic Hood near your best stuff. A Ld10 Psyhood will give you a pair of 4+ attempts to Deny this Bit.. umm 'Witch'... Let alone they have to pass two Ld9 psychic tests. All 4 events (passing two Ld9 psytest, failing two Deny the Witch rolls) are required for this combo to work at full effect.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Psyker Battle Squad + Primaris Psyker w/ Warp Scream. Here's -9 Ld at range 36. Oh, by the way, take 3d6 wounds with no armor or cover saves. Hope you're awfully good at rolling 6's for Deny The Witch.

 

Point. Click. Delete for entire squads of my marines without any attack rolls. Those guys have to die immediately.

 

- Marty Lund

 

I'd go 2 Baal Preds here, 12" movement, two weapons at normal BS and one with snapfire. Pretty boss to handle humans. If embarked on a chimera, blast it off the table and watch them die to auto S4 hits. ;)

 

 

 

Nobz Bikers I'd try to handle with my regular Furioso or DC dread. Plenty of S10 hits with average initiative and high WS, and the possibility to re-roll missed hits. them bikers are gone on a 5+ :)

 

 

 

What I really don't want to fight is an all terminator army(great now that DA are getting a new codex, right? :D ) since we now really have to drown Terminators in attacks to get through the 2+ armour save. Paladins have really become nasty for a CC orientated army and I don't want to take the cowardly road of shame (=shooting with my whole army only to see that they don't die).

 

How to deal with an all-terminator army without list-tailoring? You normally don't pack 15 Plasmaguns on your assault squads, neither do you field an all Powerfist Sanguinary Guard. It's a vicious circle!

 

 

 

Snorri

[darth_giles]

How to deal with an all-terminator army without list-tailoring? You normally don't pack 15 Plasmaguns on your assault squads, neither do you field an all Powerfist Sanguinary Guard. It's a vicious circle!

No, but you can go back to the old 3rd Edition standard of carrying plasma pistols in the bulk of your assault squad instead of Infernus pistols or Meltaguns. That'll help a little, because those death stars are still somewhat vulnerable to high-AP fire even if you can't inflict instant death.

 

And you're right about vicious cycles; all it takes is one jerk to break things from friendly to hyper-competitive.

[SnorriSnorrison]

How to deal with an all-terminator army without list-tailoring? You normally don't pack 15 Plasmaguns on your assault squads, neither do you field an all Powerfist Sanguinary Guard. It's a vicious circle!

No, but you can go back to the old 3rd Edition standard of carrying plasma pistols in the bulk of your assault squad instead of Infernus pistols or Meltaguns. That'll help a little, because those death stars are still somewhat vulnerable to high-AP fire even if you can't inflict instant death.

 

And you're right about vicious cycles; all it takes is one jerk to break things from friendly to hyper-competitive.

 

 

Mmmh, a Plasmapistol is inferior to a meltagun when fired on Terminators, in almost every possible way I think. :)

did you mean plasmaguns? In there I see the problem that we lose lots of anti-tank when getting up close, sure plasma can take off hull points and has more shots, but you can't assault after shooting these guns, either. And that kinda takes away the sense of an assault squad.

 

Tacs with Plasmaguns, Devs with cannons, ravens with cannons...or dreads even. At least two of these options I have available right now, but what that's not enough? I mean 30 2+ bodies have become incredibly hardcore. :P

 

 

Oh and I hate these kind of jerks...dreadsocks, dreadsocks everywhere, in their faces!

 

 

 

Snorri

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Snorri I completely agree, BA now face a giant uphill battle against Deathwing/Draigowing/Loganwing/etcetc

 

6 Death Company w/Chaplain (220pts, rough equiv cost to 5 TEQ) will kill avg 3.83 TEQ on the charge, and don't care about 3++ although this doesn't seem quite efficient enough, and charge once -maybe win- then die to shooting/countercharge

 

 

Perhaps taking out an Allied selection of TH/SS with your counts-as vanilla character of choice? Kantor to make BA Sternguard scoring? Lysander seems like a good candidate to seek out and kill Arjac... or even Vulcan to make the most of your selected TH/SS. Unfortunately grabbing allies like this starts a slippery slope where your whole list begins to get stronger when written as an entirely vanilla army.

 

The beacon of hope for BA of course is the Vindicator-- but man those things are going to be primaried like thay always have been. I almost feel if you are going to take even one Vindi, you should be taking 2 or 3.

 

 

Edit: I feel the double plasmagun RAS is not a bad choice in the least. As long as they kill 30pts, they are worth it-- and 2 plasmaguns can easily accomplish that. Additionally, the plasmagun makes a RAS useful in the shooting phase AND in the assault phase-- PLUS kiting has never been easier, with JP mobility and premeasuring allowed at all times.

 

Then there are things like Biomancy Hive Tyrants, Telepathy Broodlords, and Tervigon-gaunt tarpits-- it seems like with 6th edition, Blood Angels are no longer a top-tier assault army. Our niche will be that we must be able to out-shoot what we cannot assault, and out-assault what we cannot out-shoot. Encorporating plasmaguns into RAS is a stronger way to do that, especially since meltaguns are less needed to destroy vehicles (grenades, melee and attackbikes can do that)

[darth_giles]

Mmmh, a Plasmapistol is inferior to a meltagun when fired on Terminators, in almost every possible way I think. -_-

did you mean plasmaguns? In there I see the problem that we lose lots of anti-tank when getting up close, sure plasma can take off hull points and has more shots, but you can't assault after shooting these guns, either. And that kinda takes away the sense of an assault squad.

Plasma pistols get twice the shots at the same range, and termies are still only one wound unless Dragio gives them an extra one. That's also provided you can still move and double-tap with PPs; my rulebook is trapped in UPS limbo thanks to the neighbor's dog.

 

Next time I see that dog out, I'm going to call the Arbites.

[StJude]

Besides Snorri's suggestion for a Dreadnought, Sanguine Sword is still a "must take" power for Instant Death, especially now that biker models count as T5.

 

This means Mephiston or/and a Librarian with Sanguine Sword attached to a squad with a sarge to deal with challenges. Depending on how creative you wanna get, you can either upgrade to an epistolary for Sanguine and Unleash rage or attach a Chaplain to allow re-roll of misses on the charge.

 

My preferred choice is 5 termies with SS and THs and an attached librarian and if you have the points to spare, a priest either in the group or nearby for feel no pain to make things even more frustrating.

 

In fact, I think that a 5man unit of SS/TH termies with a librarian is a MUST now. Death company are cool now that they can be controlled, but they are outshined in my opinion by the previously mentioned unit. No need to ally (in my opinion) with the above configuration.

 

I don't think this is the age of infantry only either. Psychic shooting attacks like the Psyker Battle squad trick do not work on units embarked on vehicles. That will cut that nonsense down pretty quickly. Deploy any Bike units or Jump Pack Infantry well out of range of those guys or Deep strike/Reserve non-embarked units if you haven't already fulfilled your "no more than 50% in reserves" restriction.

 

As to Arjac, you should not be engaging him in assault. Mobility is one of our main strengths and needs to be used to back away as much as it is to press forward. If you have not abandoned vehicles and Arjac and co. drop pod in, he has two chances to wreck the vehicle your squad is in, one with the meltagun he took in the Grey Hunters and the other with foehammer. If the vehicle has not been incapacitated, you leave Arjac sitting there. If he wrecks the vehicle when he lands, assault him after shooting and try and get him to expend the wolf standard when you charge. Make sure you challenge him with your sarge, that way you can at least limit his damage to one character while the rest of your squad puts a hurting on the grey hunters.

 

While he is distracted, you should be moving away and when your dudes are dead should be shooting him and his squad with everything else you have. That Wolf Standard only works once in assault. After that, light him up. Fire all the AP2 and AP1 weapons you have. Eventually you should see him miss his 3++. Of course, a five man squad of TH/SS Terminators with attached librarian is also gonna give that unit a run for it's money. Unleash rage and using your sarge to challenge Arjac while you wail away on the rest of the squad with your termies and librarian is the way to go.

 

Let me say it again.....5man Assault termies with SS and Hammers are the dogs <censored>

 

As to all terminator armies.....Deathwing is still an army that gives me immense trouble. The best you can do there is just keep moving and use your mobility to focus fire one unit at a time. And yeah, you guessed it, try and pick off squads here and there with your own 5man termie squad and libbie. If objectives, spread them FAR out so that his lack of speed/mobility is an issue. Try and go for contesting his objectives in the final rounds.

[Drunken Angel]

Stay away as previously mentioned. Use Stormravens and strafe the heck out of him the LOS either hits him or the guys he is with. Units can declare to leave combat at end of turn. Arjac has to engage with IC he will kill the IC. If Arjac and pals leave anything alive run away and bring in the shooters deprive him of combats to hide in and shoot him to pieces.

I agree and think if combats your thing TH/SS termies with Corbulo out of the raven are a good option for combat. Backed up by a dread ? even better.

[Black_Sky]

Mmmh, a Plasmapistol is inferior to a meltagun when fired on Terminators, in almost every possible way I think. :P

did you mean plasmaguns? In there I see the problem that we lose lots of anti-tank when getting up close, sure plasma can take off hull points and has more shots, but you can't assault after shooting these guns, either. And that kinda takes away the sense of an assault squad.

Plasma pistols get twice the shots at the same range, and termies are still only one wound unless Dragio gives them an extra one. That's also provided you can still move and double-tap with PPs; my rulebook is trapped in UPS limbo thanks to the neighbor's dog.

 

Next time I see that dog out, I'm going to call the Arbites.

 

 

Pistols have not been able to double tap since 4th edition, and then only if you stood still. Now all pistols can fire a single shot at their respective maximum range. I'll say go with infernus pistols where possible for improved chances at instant death.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

What I really don't want to fight is an all terminator army(great now that DA are getting a new codex, right? :P ) since we now really have to drown Terminators in attacks to get through the 2+ armour save. Paladins have really become nasty for a CC orientated army and I don't want to take the cowardly road of shame (=shooting with my whole army only to see that they don't die).

 

How to deal with an all-terminator army without list-tailoring? You normally don't pack 15 Plasmaguns on your assault squads, neither do you field an all Powerfist Sanguinary Guard. It's a vicious circle!

 

 

 

Snorri

 

I'm wondering how many problems a Divination JP-Libby and 10-man RAS w/double PG could help? Seems like a pretty useful unit, very mobile for kiting an enemy before charging in, with rerolls helping both the shooting aspect and melee aspect. In fact, use an Allied Blood Priest (SW Rune Priest) w/JP and then you gain amazing psyker-defense to boot. 10-man unit of Blood Hunters (Grey Hunters) never hurt a list either... and not a single SW model needs be used, I take a pragmatic view that we're just borrowing an ability that if 'those' marines can do it, then ALL marines can do it. I don't feel my fluff impinged at all, considering that the points cost is EXACTLY the freakin SAME but somehow they benefit from 24" runeweapon psy-denial.

 

One thing that allays my original fear of Nob Bikerz is the fact that Mephiston is so popular-- I'm not sure why I didn't realize it before, but for 250pts He will easily eat a whole unit of Nob Bikerz by himself. For once his AP3 will matter, and he can kill them all one by one through challenges because they're ALL characters. Ditto for Allied-Lysander or Draigo, who are also all very popular too, so perhaps their threat won't be as bad as I've thought.

 

SO Snorri, I agree that 15 Plasmaguns is tailoring a list, but I think a good balance would be capability of 5 shots of ranged AP2 at >11" for every 500pts

 

So ideally you'd have about 4 PG, 4 MG and 3 MM at 1500pts. Does that seem like a decent rule of thumb? Or is it too meager? Because my thought process behind that density is the ability to focus-fire to kill one 5-man TEQ unit per turn, with leeway for casualties expected at that points level. 5 shots per 500pts may not be good enough if too many of them are TH/SS but against 'normal' TEQ I think it might be adequate. Thoughts?

[Oka]

My call on almost any heavy threat:

 

DC with Lemartes and maybe a fist should be rounding the 350pt.

Or a DC Dread, 170 pts, if you Drop-Podit.

 

That my winner ant-deathstars

 

It usually just need to point and shoot, but sometimes you need to take advantage on the positioning.

 

For the above examples: vs IG psyckers the Dread being a vehicle will be immune and vs Arjac, just flank him, you should chew the grey hunters before anything can react, and Arjac will loose his chance to fight, being left too far away to pile-in, next round he'll loose his buffs.

 

Anyway, vs most deathstars the dc will eventually die, but they will take the enemy with em. AND AFTER ALL, thats their purpose: to win the battles as they die.

 

 

EDIT; both should also be able to handle the Nob bikers.

[mlund]

What about putting the Divination Librarian with Sternguard or Assault Marines in a drop pod? Either way, go Plasma heavy and abuse re-rolls at short range with super deep strike. On topof that you can use the pod to screen unwelcomed fire from other quarters and get a cover save after the alpha strike. They seem like good trouble-shooters for a death star unit. Bonus points if you roll the power that curses the other guy to re-roll his successful saves.

 

That Sternguard combi-plasma barrage is just dirty with Divination back-up. Plus the spec-ops ammo afterwards ... Yuck.

 

- Marty Lund

[SevenExxes]

Plasma Honour guard, Plasma Sanguinary Guard and plasma 'Ravens. Stormravens use twinlinked plasma cannons so rolling a gets hot result it quite rare. The units benefit from priests if they fail their armour saves.

[SnorriSnorrison]

SO Snorri, I agree that 15 Plasmaguns is tailoring a list, but I think a good balance would be capability of 5 shots of ranged AP2 at >11" for every 500pts

 

So ideally you'd have about 4 PG, 4 MG and 3 MM at 1500pts. Does that seem like a decent rule of thumb? Or is it too meager? Because my thought process behind that density is the ability to focus-fire to kill one 5-man TEQ unit per turn, with leeway for casualties expected at that points level. 5 shots per 500pts may not be good enough if too many of them are TH/SS but against 'normal' TEQ I think it might be adequate. Thoughts?

 

Probably be better off with a 4 Plasmacannon Dev unit. Pondered that over the night...sounds pretty solid. Or, if Devs aren't your friend, include one or two dreads and a raven, one plasmacannon in your Tactical squad(which you finally should take!).

 

That's four 3" blast weapons that can be fired at 4 different targets. Sure they will take up 4 Slots, but hey, that's the price you'll have to pay sometimes. I think that it will bring enough pain to Terminators that you can fire your meltaguns and charge with an Assault squad after that.

 

 

 

Snorri

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Idk, I'm against Plasma Cannons in general-- that little 3" template NEVER ends up hitting as many models as you think it can. Maybe that's a personal psychological effect on me, because I get so excited about big heavy plasma cannon and then they just failed me.... I mean someone running TEQ on those 40mm bases can space them out to the point where you're only gonna hit one... maybe two if you get lucky scatter. The plasmagun to me is superior because with move and shoot, it now has a 30" range (36" range on JP) and will still get that one hit reliably, and will get the two-hits more reliably when closer. Maybe I just had a few bad games that turned me off to them, or maybe I'm using them wrong. But honestly if I could take a Dev squad with 4 plasmagun, I'd rather have that than 4 plasmacannons.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

What about putting the Divination Librarian with Sternguard or Assault Marines in a drop pod? Either way, go Plasma heavy and abuse re-rolls at short range with super deep strike. On topof that you can use the pod to screen unwelcomed fire from other quarters and get a cover save after the alpha strike. They seem like good trouble-shooters for a death star unit. Bonus points if you roll the power that curses the other guy to re-roll his successful saves.

 

That Sternguard combi-plasma barrage is just dirty with Divination back-up. Plus the spec-ops ammo afterwards ... Yuck.

 

- Marty Lund

 

EDIT: Mlund unless I'm mistaken, you can't cast a Blessing after deepstriking because units arriving from reserve aren't allowed to use abilities that trigger at the beginning of the movement phase. Am I wrong about that? Or did Deep-strike Divination a no-go?

 

Mlund you are spot on the money- Morticon has a Divination Libby in the list he recently posted up and I nodded at the utility wen I first saw it-- but then it occurred to me that a DivLibby really IS pretty amazing, and while primarily looks like a shooty-support role, there are some aggresive strategies that can go along with him.

 

Primaris for Twinlinking Devastators, Attackbikes, or PGs... if you roll Foreboding then put him in a 10man RAS with 2xPGs - Jump in, shoot, then GET charged and shoot again! Forewarning is also amazing for tip-of the spear units... Misfortune needs no explanation, Perfect Timing is only going to help lowAP shooty units but man its good-- again another case made for a 10-man RAS 2xPG. I'm bummed about Precognition but it won't go amiss on a Terminator Libby (other Libbys, eh switch to Primaris power) and Scrier's gaze is fairly underwhelming too.

 

Overall, I think a Terminator Libby can really get the most out of the Divination table-- especially if you are more 'shooty', so I fully expect to see Space Wolves Terminator DivLibby w/combiPG leading 10 Grey Hunters w/ 2xPG. Super-solid choice for only 285pts. UGH..... but that gives me an idea for an allied slot.... hmmmm

[MadMek83]

I am actually worried: Pointy ear combo: Archon in shadowfield, power weapon and something nice like agonizer joining into Eldar Seer council with Farseer with fortune and guide, perhaps doom and full unit of Pathfinders. My worse possible outcome for this is that Farseer casts guide on pathfinders then fortune on seercouncil with several warlocks with destructors. While pathfinders open fire with their re-rolling shots, having several ap1 shots that enemy can place + rending shots is just sick... and then that pointy ear council hops towards me with archon and his 2++ field absorbin all fire with fortune re-rolling if he throws 1. And if I would assault that unit, I would get 4-6 heavy flamer templates on my face.

 

My soltution would be trying to take initiative, place 1 or two very shooty units in enemy ground (perhaps tactical marine squad and something else) and having flame sponson Baal outflanking to take our pesky pathfinders, while trying to whittle down that seer council... I think my solution is less blood angelic: Shoot it with templates. plasma cannons, missile blasts. Such seeer council could easily negate any psychic powers. As by BRB warlock are level 0 psyskers but still can assist farseer negate any incoming spell... off course shackle soul + fear of darkness might work that though...

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Not to hijack my own thread, but:

 

Shadowfield disappears after the first time you fail it.

 

Fortune allows you to re-roll failed saves. It still fails even though it may go on to save that particular wound.

 

 

Fail--- its in the words. And words mean things. RAW

 

edit: spelling.

[Morticon]

Not to hijack my own thread, but:

 

Shadowfield disappears after the first time you fail it.

 

Fortune allows you to re-roll failed saves. It still fails even though it may go on to save that particular wound.

 

 

Fail--- its in the words. And words mean things. RAW

 

edit: spelling.

 

Check the wording of "re-rolls".

[MadMek83]

Not to hijack my own thread, but:

 

Shadowfield disappears after the first time you fail it.

 

Fortune allows you to re-roll failed saves. It still fails even though it may go on to save that particular wound.

 

 

Fail--- its in the words. And words mean things. RAW

 

edit: spelling.

 

Check the wording of "re-rolls".

 

Why the fortuned units and IC's are so annoying sometimes.... re-rolling failed saves... Eldar trickery as its worse or best how you might consider it. I have Eldar Codex and 1,500P worth Craftworld Pointy ears and I can quote how Codex says about Fortune but I better not as some forums do not like when rules or codexes are quoted. If Shadowshield would fail you would take the wound, however you may re-roll the dice as Farseer entwistes the fates and possibilities and matter itself, allowing people and characters re-do their actions. If you make successful re-roll Shadowfield never failed. Fortune does not work like FnP like you took hit but you ignore it. Fortune literally allows you re-do it and ignore first outcome.

[CaptainAsmodai]

Outflank with scouts. Give the scout locator beacon deepstrike th/ss within 6" no scatter then murderer the enemy unit

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I am actually worried: Pointy ear combo: Archon in shadowfield, power weapon and something nice like agonizer joining into Eldar Seer council with Farseer with fortune and guide, perhaps doom and full unit of Pathfinders. My worse possible outcome for this is that Farseer casts guide on pathfinders then fortune on seercouncil with several warlocks with destructors. While pathfinders open fire with their re-rolling shots, having several ap1 shots that enemy can place + rending shots is just sick... and then that pointy ear council hops towards me with archon and his 2++ field absorbin all fire with fortune re-rolling if he throws 1. And if I would assault that unit, I would get 4-6 heavy flamer templates on my face.

 

My soltution would be trying to take initiative, place 1 or two very shooty units in enemy ground (perhaps tactical marine squad and something else) and having flame sponson Baal outflanking to take our pesky pathfinders, while trying to whittle down that seer council... I think my solution is less blood angelic: Shoot it with templates. plasma cannons, missile blasts. Such seeer council could easily negate any psychic powers. As by BRB warlock are level 0 psyskers but still can assist farseer negate any incoming spell... off course shackle soul + fear of darkness might work that though...

 

 

Send Terminators after 'em--- that Agonizer is only AP3 now. Sanguinary Priest perhaps, to give us 2+ w/FnP is better than his 4+ rerollables, and kill them off one by one until the farseers dead then that shadowfield will fail. May take awhile but with Terminators w/Mephiston or a Priest (or both) the numbers are on your side. In fact, Sanguinary Guard will do the trick too-- anything with 2+ armor and support should be ok.

 

Now how to handle the magical unfailable-Shadowfield without using 2+ Save type-units..... um got me.

 

 

Edit: I'm sure Astorath leading a Death Company unit couldn't go too far wrong either-- challenge w/Astorath, he'll have to answer with either the Farseer (poor choice, likely to kill him) or the Archon (will survive, but he was the best choice to kill lots of DC Crazies and now his attacks will bounce off Astorath's 2+)