Codex: space marines assault squads

[BassWave]

I would like to discuss the viability of using codex:sm assault squads in 6th. It seems with the hammer of wrath rules they received a boost. Plus, full squads can have up to four plasma pistols (two on the sarge) with the new pistol rules.

 

Yeah they were ok vs weaker units before but can we actually rely on them for anti mech now?

[greatcrusade08]

the impact hits work out to about 5 extra wounds on T4 opponents pre assault, im sure those mathammer fans among us wil tell us thats 4 dead orks or about 2 dead marines.

which isnt bad considering its free..

 

other than that assault marines arent that different than in 5th, now of course we have to worry about snap shots on the charge.

 

tbh i like being able to have alot of plasma pistols in a unit, although i wouldnt go as far as putting dual pistols on the sergeant as like it or not he needs a PW for challenges IMO.

if you add a motf you can serously increase plasma spammage.

 

for example a unit ive put together goes like this:

10 assault marines minus packs in a pod

-2 plasma pistols

-sergeant with plasma pistol and power sword

 

motf with plasma pistol and power axe

 

thats 5 plasma shots when the pod lands and if charged the sergeant can deal with challenges leaving the motf free to smash any 2+ saves that come his way

 

edit: we couldnt really say assault marines threatened termies in 5th, but this combo above would do the job IMO

[LoreDraconis]

hmm...ok..but why would you want to do that if you could do it cheaper with a tactical squad that can fire twice the number of bolter shots on the turn it arrives? And for cheaper, mind you. And they're scoring. And at greater range. And better retaliation vs a charge. Doesn't seem like the best way to use em.

 

Maybe at a 5 man plasma assassination squad? you can move 12" and pop 3 shots off. They deepstrike as well, although your short range on the pistols could be a liability.

[greatcrusade08]

hmm...ok..but why would you want to do that if you could do it cheaper with a tactical squad that can fire twice the number of bolter shots on the turn it arrives?

And for cheaper, mind you. And they're scoring. And at greater range. And better retaliation vs a charge. Doesn't seem like the best way to use em.

 

for a start im not taking the unit to fire bolt shots, im taking them for massed plasma, tac squads can get a plasmagun and either combi or pistol on the sergeant, but straight away that makes the unit pretty much the same cost as the assault squad listed above.. hardly the cheaper version your claiming.

Again range doesnt matter, because its a plasma squad that can charge in the next turns, gives you something a tac squad wouldnt be as good at (also a tac squad with plasmagun couldnt fire and charge in the same turn)

 

if bolters can kill your target then a thunderfire or whirlwind at a much lower cost can do the job from much further away.. lets not get hung up on the bolter shots in this equation or the rangeof said bolter shots.

this is all about the plasma baby ;)

 

as for better retaliation on the charge the only difference is the tac marines might get another one or two bolt shots off with snap shot.. whoop de doo.

in terms of assault potential assault marines have 2:1 attacks over tac marines on the back foot, 3:2 when they charge.

 

edit: also remember the saving grace of a dro pod is that you can pretty much land where you want, which goes someway to negating range issues of plasma pistols

[BassWave]

I'd prefer using then with packs, its not just the amount of plasma, its the combination of plasma, wrath, AND the ensuing assault. I dont think the lack of power weapon will be a big deal as the enemy sarge would probably be taken out either by the plasma barrage (thanks to new wound allocation rules and the fact the sarge is usually in front), or by hammer of wrath.

 

And if you add melta bombs, you can have some fun hunting vehicles. Plasma is now actually pretty good vs vehicles. Sure we have better ways of dealing with vehicles, but having the option is cool too.

[Koremu]

I'd rather equip the Sergeant with Power Fist & Storm Shield for challenges - against most HQ units worth the name, the HQ would be going first anyway, and the potential to ID a HQ unit should encourage the enemy HQ towards caution.

[Reinholt]

I think your good potential loadouts for the sergeant will vary depending on if you intend to attach a character to the squad. With a character, I like the SS + Fist or naked SS combo, so you can lock up an enemy character and let your guy smash their troops.

 

If you are a loner, I like either a naked, plasma pistol only, PW only, or the SS+PF guy. I wouldn't run an SS only guy without a character.

[LoreDraconis]

for a start im not taking the unit to fire bolt shots, im taking them for massed plasma, tac squads can get a plasmagun and either combi or pistol on the sergeant, but straight away that makes the unit pretty much the same cost as the assault squad listed above.. hardly the cheaper version your claiming.

Again range doesnt matter, because its a plasma squad that can charge in the next turns, gives you something a tac squad wouldnt be as good at (also a tac squad with plasmagun couldnt fire and charge in the same turn)

 

 

But, they get the same number of plasma shots. They're in no way any more of a plasma squad than the tacs would be. And if you land the pod close enough to shoot with your pistols, you will be the one getting charged, so you better have those extra shots and snapshots ready. On top of that, you lose your Hammer of Wrath. If you want to be the one getting the charge, then dropping the packs doesnt seem ideal.

[greatcrusade08]

But, they get the same number of plasma shots. They're in no way any more of a plasma squad than the tacs would be. And if you land the pod close enough to shoot with your pistols, you will be the one getting charged, so you better have those extra shots and snapshots ready. On top of that, you lose your Hammer of Wrath. If you want to be the one getting the charge, then dropping the packs doesnt seem ideal.

 

ok so weve gone from tacs being better in every way to them being about the same.. its a move in the right direction.

it doesnt matter that assault marines get charged, they have the same number of attacks as an equal number of sternguard, plus wih the attached motf they become a very dangerous prospect, especially to MEQ/TEQ.

by playing smart with drop pod placement and target priority you can do very well with this unit.

 

drop in beside a unit of termies fire 5 plasma pistols, they charge you, fire snap shots, then have lot of cc attacks with mr Motf doing his AP2 dance of death

[Gunslinger87]

I think people shouldn't expect too much out of Hammer of Wrath. Keep in mind you have to be in base contact on assault. With random dice rolls, that won't happen too often for more than a few models. Even if you run up to within an inch, you probably won't be able to get everyone into base contact. It is a nice rule and bonus, but still leaves our assault marines a 2nd rate choice. Especially considering you can have scoring units that can dish out damage with overwatch now and are therefore better in defensive assault. Still not grey hunters with better gear and counter-attack, but I'd still go for a tactical squad over assault any day. (Unless I have a very specific role in mind, or a jump-pack chaplain as cheap HQ etc.)

[LoreDraconis]

But, they get the same number of plasma shots. They're in no way any more of a plasma squad than the tacs would be. And if you land the pod close enough to shoot with your pistols, you will be the one getting charged, so you better have those extra shots and snapshots ready. On top of that, you lose your Hammer of Wrath. If you want to be the one getting the charge, then dropping the packs doesnt seem ideal.

 

ok so weve gone from tacs being better in every way to them being about the same.. its a move in the right direction.

it doesnt matter that assault marines get charged, they have the same number of attacks as an equal number of sternguard, plus wih the attached motf they become a very dangerous prospect, especially to MEQ/TEQ.

by playing smart with drop pod placement and target priority you can do very well with this unit.

 

drop in beside a unit of termies fire 5 plasma pistols, they charge you, fire snap shots, then have lot of cc attacks with mr Motf doing his AP2 dance of death

 

They're still better for all the reasons I listed before. You won't need all those extra melee attacks if you're able to take out enough of the enemy on the first round of shooting. And I'm assuming the MotF is coming along with my tacs as well. He's providing the same threat to the countercharge. He's more shooting oriented than melee oriented anyway...in fact...if you run him with a tac squad with the intention of doing a run and gun, you can give him a combi plasma and get a total of 3 plasma shots out of him alone on the drop and keep a 24" range on him for subsequent rounds. All I'm saying is, for the specific purpose you're trying to employ them for, the tacs seem like a much more reasonable option.

 

It's true, hammer of wrath isnt a game winner per se, but it's a nice little buff that you're giving away if you choose to drop your packs.

[greatcrusade08]

All I'm saying is, for the specific purpose you're trying to employ them for, the tacs seem like a much more reasonable option.

 

i think we will have to agree to disagree, the assaults in my opinion offer more flexibility than the tacs

[LoreDraconis]

Fair enough, sir! *gentleman's handshake* Yeah, many ways to skin a cat, and I do tend to like skinning them with bullets. :)

[xmaverickzerox]

Well I had great results against orks when adding chaplain with jump pack to an assault squad with two flamers. The boyz squad never saw what hit them :(...

[Koremu]

Well I had great results against orks when adding chaplain with jump pack to an assault squad with two flamers. The boyz squad never saw what hit them :P...

Ork Boyz are pretty much the perfect target for Assault Squads

[Reinholt]

In general, your best assault squad targets are:

 

- Not heavily armored

- Lower I

 

So ork boyz are right in the wheelhouse. So are a lot of the tyranid gribblies. So are necron warriors.

 

On the other hand, d/eldar are a mixed bag (their non-assault stuff gets wrecked, but the assaulty stuff could be bad; for instance, you might or might not enjoy charging harlequins, wytches, or howling banshees depending on loadouts and situation).

 

Generally assault squads are least effective against other armored and quick stuff. Their nightmare matchups in assault are things like incubi, terminators, genestealers, etc. The problem, as you can see above, is that marines in general tend to be good against the stuff assault squads are good against and less good against the stuff assault squads are not good at.

 

Thus, the assault squad does "more of the same", which I think is why you get the "I'd rather have a tactical squad" commentary, as tactical squads do similar (though not identical) things and score. Your mileage may also vary dramatically depending on what else is in the force.

 

In a BA army, where you can legitimately take them as troops, it's "replacement of the same" instead of "more of the same" and you often see the opposite conclusion. Another exception is if you are using one of the FW characters that makes your assault squads scoring.

[Mezkh]

Is it a Blood Angel or 'counts as Blood Angel' assault squad? Then yes. Otherwise, I'd pass on it.

[King Willy]

I've found them to be decent, certainly better then before, but not magnificent. In larger games, say 2000+ when your elites a filled up they work a dream with a chap or recluse, just as they always have.

 

They good for supporting termies or as a hammer unit but by themselves they still need to be in full ten man squads.

 

Have to disagree bout taking down orks,nids,crons. They get to many snapshots, even slugga boyz have to many shots, and while it's not gonna take you out it will slow and weaken your attack especially now that fearless means marines can be tarpitted for longer and you have to wipe them out.

 

As for the tacVAssault thing, not so much of a worry now that one of the missions lets your Fast Attack become scoring, just be sneaky hehe and decide with your opponent without rolling ;)

[DarkGuard]

I still not overly sure how much of an impact Hammer of Wrath will have (pun not intended). It's free attacks, but how often will all models be able to get into base contact? And it's still no AP, and Assault Marines struggle against good armour saves. Of course, with Hammer of Wrath we get more wounds so can bring down good armour save units through quantity of hits, but I've yet to be convinced.

 

Maybe I should dust off my unit and give them a try though. :tu:

[Bannus]

I still not overly sure how much of an impact Hammer of Wrath will have (pun not intended).

I don't believe you. :D

 

However, I agree that Hammer of Wrath will be largely negligible for Assault Marines.

[Xtofervs]

What about taking BA allies and using their assault marines? They are troops, and I'm no BA expert but they have some pretty nice HQs with jump packs right? Frees up fast attack slots for bikes or speeders, but I guess it could be expensive.

[DarkGuard]

It wouldn't be that expensive, especially if you were going to use two HQs. It's also worth nothing that you'd then gain access to a Libby who has Divination, always handy.

 

The best thing about Assault Marines in C:BA is their scoring status and ability to bring different special weapons, like meltaguns. Sang Priests aren't as big a thing now, FC got nerfed, but FnP is still helpful if you have the points spare to buff that unit.

[Guardian of the Rage]

I believe the addition of the BA assault squad (with the librarian for divination) will be a valid option. As has been stated, they can take the full range of special weapons and are scoring.

 

This cross over with BA approach could prove popular as several of the options are similarly costed but with subtle differences. For example, BA honour guard units mirror the command squad except that jps are the option and bikes are not. They do not count against foc so should be valid as allies unless anyone believes differently? They can of course take the chapter banner and contain the area effect priest; only affecting other BA sadly. Jump pack plasma gun squad with fnp may be tempting. I'm sure someone can make the case for fast vehicles too...

 

As far as standard utility is concerned, obviously it has improved; however I think that it is hard to justify this as more than marginal. Particularly when compared to the equivalent increase in bike potential.

 

Cheers,

[ImperialGuardian]

Am I the only one who believes Assault squads are aswsome now due to how grenades work? (yes every other unit gets them, but they are most effective in CC and rhinos are no longer a viable *edit* no longer as effective of a */edit* CC entry option)

 

Grenades now hit vheciles that you can reach on a 3+ (worst case... even walkers) so you can essentially treat them as being just as good as shots.

A 5 man assault squad with a meltabomb leader gets one melta S8 and 4xS6 attacks on rear armor of anything they hit (instead of hitting on 6's most of the time for moving transports)

Its like we were gifted a meltagun as an option for assault squads! (thats half way to being as good as BA =) )

 

I know a tactical squad can use grenades too, but the 12" move + 2d6(rerollable) charge is massively better than the CC range of a tactical squad.

 

I think 6th edition is a 'troops can do anything' edition mainly because of the effecitveness of greneades.

In 5th edition you had to rely on your weapons to make a squad balanced...

You are naturally effective against infantry due to bolt guns being the basic weapon, but not naturally good against tanks and MC's

And if you were not balanced and able to deal with tanks + mc's, they could be invulnerable to you

-To be good against tanks you needed a power fist or melta gun

-To be good against MC's you needed a power fist

Without these against dreads, tanks, or MC's the basic power armor squads would be ineffective and thus designated to the role of anti-infantry and point capture

 

Now the squad just takes grenades and you are covered for infantry(bolt guns), tanks (grenades), and MC's (grenades).

A cheap squad that can do anything is invaluable IMHO

Because Assault squads are very mobile infantry w/ grenades, I say they are very useful now.

 

meat and potatoes are IN for 6th edition!

[LoreDraconis]

hmm, good point about the grenades actually....

 

 

but the 12" move + 2d6(rerollable) charge

 

However, this is one or the other. You choose either 12" during your movement or rerollable 2D6 charge, but not both.