Vanguard Veteran Squad

[Armond]

I am truly considering taking one, mostly for the modelling opportunity. But are these guys a good choice tactically? I like the idea of all of them running around with storm shields, should be fun to model at the least!

[Jupiter]

The general consensus is that they are an iffy choice, at best. They're exceedingly expensive for being relatively fragile, and while HI can be nice in a pinch, it's not worth much.

 

While I've never used them, from what I understand the argument is that they aren't worth it when compared to both other fast attack choices or other combat units.

 

For example, our FA choices have been largely needed in the past as utility roles, such as Typhoons, MM attack bikes, or MM/HF speeders. Especially now that we have access to the stormtalon as a FA choice for anti-flyer utility, I've personally never found the room in my list to spring for vanguard vets. Heck, I'd even consider using tactical and/or scout bikes squads, now that bikes got several buffs in 6th.

 

Similarly, there are a couple significantly more viable (or maybe just more popular) combat units available to us. With the 2+ AS buff in 6th (IE power weapons don't ignore armor saves, so AP1-2 weapons will be much harder to come by, especially in combat) and deep strike getting a little more forgiving, combat terminators seem to me to be the way to go. They still have the ever-effective option of taking a LR for mobility, but I've used them twice deep striking in 6th edition and have been pretty happy with their survivability.

 

However, that said, now that one of the Eternal War rulebook missions has FA choices as scoring, I could see an argument for a storm-shield equipped squad (to increase survivability, since power armor will still be pretty easy to negate) as either jump troops (to take advantage of hammer of wrath) or in a rhino to have a fast, somewhat-survivable FA choice. Give them all power weapons, and now with the different rules, you can have access to a variety of tactical abilities at a moderate price point (at least for vanguard vets).

 

Even at best, compare these, for evidence:

 

5 Combat Terminators - 200 Points

6 Vanguard Vets, 6 Storm Shields, Jump Packs, 5 Power Weapons, Sergeant with Power Fist - 380 points

 

Considering the vets are nearly twice the cost of the termis, are much more fragile, won't hit as hard, all while only possessing a little more mobility, it becomes clear why I don't think they will be a great choice in 6th.

 

Overall: I don't see myself taking them any time soon. I love the modeling opportunities provided by them though, too. Not every decision has to be a tactically-optimized one, so go for it :whistling:

[Armond]

Ugh, I like the idea soooo much. But if on the field they aren't worth at least half their weight it gives me pause. Perhaps I should just model some Termies and then decide if I want to go with a unit of 5-6 Vanguard...

 

My army is leaning towards assault based, which is why I am not really considering too much in terms of long ranged support. Going to have to weight the options. Maybe even try them out. Of course that is a lot to say for someone who has yet to play a single game of 40k haha

 

Thanks for the insight Jupiter!

[Kierdale]

I do have a squad of all-storm shield & power weapon VV and I have to agree with Jupiter that there are better units to use your FA slots.

Like you, Armond, I built them to look cool...hopefully they do, they certainly attract compliments and a whole lot of enemy fire.

 

I'd say build them if you want and if you have the money, but don't expect to field them often. Mine will likely only see the tabletop in Apoc games.

[Mezkh]

My BA vanguard are pretty nice. The secret is keeping them cheap, and the second secret in the new edition is that they can all take Meltabombs which now disable vehicles with ease.

 

For a toe-to-to combat unit look elsewhere, but for tactical utility my vanguard will happily assault into firebase units and vehicles turn two to take them out of the game. Worth it for the 190 point spend to keep the rest of my army happy as they get down to it.

 

If you can ally BA (who do have very useful HQ and Troop options it must be said) then I'd say go for it. With a normal SM army, iffy if you don't have the reserve reroll, reduced scatter and extra point premium.

[thade]

Hi. My name's Thade, and I love Vanguard.

 

Much of my theory on them (insofar as Wargear loadout) is about to change dramatically, but their usefulness probably won't change so much. I'll probably scale back even further on upgrades (lightning claws aren't quite as good as before, but axes are now interesting) and can never use a Rhino to move them (but I always used a LR anyway).

 

In short, I have no doubt that they are viable and I'm confident my general rules of thumb for them still apply. Don't over-kit them; for each guy with any kind of upgrade, take a guy with no upgrades (and now, put him in the front rank); no more than one upgrade per unit; consider letting them ride around in a LR instead of giving them JPs.

 

If you want to HI with them, don't. It's massively risky even if they're cheap. If you still want to HI with them because it's freakin awesome, take only one or two upgrades or consider taking none and giving the Serg a power axe for his power weapon..fill the squad up as much as you can afford then land on an enemy with a TON of attacks. A unit of ten vanguard brings forty attacks on the charge. You will kill something. I promise you, haha.

[Reinholt]

A couple of thoughts:

 

- The new DS rules help them a bit; less likely to have insane mishaps with your expensive troops is always a good thing.

 

- When I have run them in the past, I have found that many stormshields and lots of equipment is overkill. My preferred build is to have 1-2 SS guys (no other gear), 1-2 PW guys, and 1 PF. You want a few bullet catchers in there as well with no upgrades (or only a jump pack, if you go that route).

 

- HI is an amazing ability when you can ensure reliable deep strikes, which basically requires a teleport homer, so think about the synergy with the rest of the army. Otherwise it's unreliable but potentially crazy good.

 

- This whole equation works much better if they are scoring. Full disclosure: the list I run them in uses Elam Courbray as my commander from IA9 (makes assault squads and vanguard scoring). I run him with the VG, also giving them hit and run in addition to being scoring. At that point, they are a major thorn in the side for my opponent.

[thade]

- The new DS rules help them a bit; less likely to have insane mishaps with your expensive troops is always a good thing.

DSing is only slightly better...besides the real danger for Vanguard isn't in a killing Mishap, but in them scattering such that they can't charge their intended target.

 

- HI is an amazing ability when you can ensure reliable deep strikes, which basically requires a teleport homer, so think about the synergy with the rest of the army. Otherwise it's unreliable but potentially crazy good.

Pretty sure you meant Locator Beacon here, as Teleport Homers won't work for JP DSing. Only places you can get Locator Beacons are on Scout Bikers and Drop Pods. (This makes for a very fun and interesting list, by the way.)

[Reinholt]

I did mean locator beacon. This is what happens when I post before I have imbibed adequate coffee. Thank you, Thade.

 

Drop pods have been my typical usage for them. The list I run with the VG also includes an ironclad in a pod, with said beacon.

 

I also just almost typed locator bacon (which, to be fair, would be an amazingly tasty upgrade for marines). Time for more coffee.

[rpnightsend]

I also just almost typed locator bacon (which, to be fair, would be an amazingly tasty upgrade for marines). Time for more coffee.

"Our foes believe they have survived our assault, as the scout bikers have broken off and left only masterwork breakfast food in their wake. But they know not the potential held within each tasty strip, and it will bring their demise"

[ShinyRhino]

My BA vanguard are pretty nice. The secret is keeping them cheap, and the second secret in the new edition is that they can all take Meltabombs which now disable vehicles with ease.

 

This caught my eye as well. Meltabombs are AMAZING now, what with the max of needing a 3+ to hit any vehicle, no matter how far it moved. A cheap, skinny Vanguard unit of 5 men in jump packs with nothing but meltabombs and the sergeant's power sword can be a major annoyance to high-AV vehicles. You can vaoprize entire Leman Russ Squadrons with a single charge. Battlewagons? Adios! Necron vehicles with their AV13 shilds bothing you? Not any more!

[DarkGuard]

Slightly related, thade, how do you think the new weapon AP effects Vanguard, especially when compared to other Marine assault units?

 

Of course, Hammernators have always been the cream of the crop, but compared to Honour Guard (C:SM ones that is), and LC Terminators have Vanguard fallen a bit. In regards to the former, Vanguard had a nice advantage of wound allocation tricks and the ability to take storm shields, as well as having flexibility. But with the changes to weapon AP Vanguard units will only really have an advantage against AP2 units, which may be few and far between.

 

And then you have Terminators, which overall may be more survivable, and like Honour Guard should be more killy against infantry. Less flexible though.

 

I'm just interested as to your thoughts on the subject.

[Reinholt]

My thought is that the era of Vanguard without jump packs is over.

 

Right now, terminators (either standard or assault) are probably better against every single unit not armed with AP2 weapons than Vanguard. Even against AP2, I'm not sure the Vanguard have a big advantage. Honor guard are also strong, but that's predicated on taking a chapter master, so I confess I never use them (as I use a captain on a bike to have scoring bikes).

 

However, terminators are slow and hard to transport. I think Vanguard, with jump packs (expensive... yet possibly very good) might be better in this edition than before, as they are now one of the only things that can assault on the turn they appear from reserves. The list building with that will require some synergy, but when you have it, being able to mix in durability, AP2, and AP3 while shielding most of your guys as non-characters could make them very good.

[thade]

Yea, you know, I definitely will still be using foot-slogging Vanguard. <3

 

Slightly related, thade, how do you think the new weapon AP effects Vanguard, especially when compared to other Marine assault units?

You know, I'm not sure yet. To be fair, I only ever charged a Terminator Squad (esp. Hammernators) in the wake of a massive bolter volley and knew - statistically - I would likely tear them apart before they got to swing. There's a LOT different now, and it's not just AP3. Now, I can't Sweep them off the table with Fearless wounds.

 

I currently take lighting claws and that's REALLY what I'm examining. I may shake things up a lot with my Vanguard. You may recall my old loadout:

 

Fist, 1-2 Lit claws, 1-2 Storm Shields, fill to six or seven with vanilla.

 

This load out was based entirely upon Wound Allocation - keeping those special weapons alive long enough to see them tear through whatever I had engaged. Now that's all gone. Positioning is vital; I need to keep those guys with shields out front and get them into BtB to ensure they can do their job at all. Lit Claws at AP3 will still do "strictly more wounds" than the power sword counterpart, but AP3 is a severe limitation in a game where many assault units are packing 2+ saves. (For the record, vs 3+ save assault teams I still expect Vanguard to come out on top as they ever did...as nothing is fundamentally different there with respect to how many wounds I'll land.)

 

Now I'm thinking I'll use my experimental load-outs even more, which are:

 

8-10 Vanguard Vets, one guy with a Fist (or maybe even a Power Axe instead)

5-7 Vanguard Vets with Plasma Pistols.

 

I think either of the latter two load-outs would still be effective at killing MEQ on a counter-charge and they'd be more effective (at least marginally) at engaging Hammernators. Ten vanguard with no upgrades at all means the Sgt can get a Power Axe or stick with the Sword. and the unit's not crazy expensive. Hammer them out of a Land Raider and bear witness to a beautiful 40 attacks. Points to spare? Drop another power weapon or two in there. Maybe even give the Sgt a storm shield because it could be useful in soaking challenges. (I expect MANY GK players to start taking Warding Staves on their Justicars, and NOW both the "no more than one" limitation and cost of warding staves makes a TON of sense to me. They've been planning this edition for a long while now.) You can also through a modestly combat-kitted IC in that Raider with them. For vanilla, Calgar was my absolute favorite. For BA, a Librarian with Unleash Rage and definitely a Sanguinary Priest.

 

Let me emphasize that I very strongly caution against charging at Hammernators with anything other than Hammernators. Shoot them to death then use melee to either slow their advance (expecting to lose whatever you throw at them) or because you're certain your flood of attacks will kill enough of them to make your losses worthwhile. Do you know what else concerns me now for my Vanguard? Honor Guard. Lightning Claws will no longer wipe the floor with them, but their power swords will wipe the floor with me. Both of these scenarios really make me lean strongly on my second load-out...the one with plasma pistols. I only used them in a handful of games last edition, but that pack of Vanguard with six PPs was pro at popping Rhinos and eating the contents. Only five guys would charge in and hit harder than a full assault squad...just as many attacks with an extra power weapon.

 

I'll no doubt blab about it on here after my thoughts and theories are better tested in the new edition...but for now, that's what I'm thinking.

[DarkGuard]

Well Hammernators are just horrible, you can never be certain with them.

 

I look forward to seeing how the Vanguard units work out thade, I'm still not sure about mass AP- attacks, largely because you can be struck back and there are more major consequences in assault than shooting due to being able to be hit back. It will be interesting.

[thade]

I guarantee you that my faith in the Emperor will carry me through.

[Reinholt]

In theory, naked VG with 40 charge attacks would give you: 20 hits, 10 wounds, 1.67 deaths.

 

Throw a fist or two in there, along with a stormshield or two, and you actually have a solid chance of blowing up a hammernator unit with the vanguard while still having enough left to be useful at the end.

[thade]

I still recommend filling the Hammernators with bolts before you even consider charging them with anything. <3

[Laughingdagger]

I will continue to deal with hammernators the way I always have. Don't charge them. Fill them with holes and they'll drop faster than a rock.

[Armond]

Ok, I am thinking a unit of 6 Vanguard armed as follows:

 

Sgt w/PF and SS

2 x Vets w/SS

3 x Vets w/basic loadout

ALL with Melta Bombs

Oh and Jump Packs as well!

 

Question now is this. Is it better to have those with SS to have Chainswords or Bolt Pistols? Should I give them all Jump Packs or a Rhino/Razorback to roll around in?

[thade]

Don't give them melta bombs; it's a waste of points. Throw another marine in the squad. You should be engaging infantry with Vanguard: that's their specialty.

 

If you want melta bombs to engage walkers (which I strongly recommend shooting instead of charging) then only add one or two on the marines (the serg has a power fist so enjoy his more-than-one S8 attacks. You don't want to break a transport in melee with Vanguard, as that means whatever's inside gets the drop on them instead. Crack the transport open with shooting then charge the juicy contents. <3

 

Insofar as Storm Shields, give them bolt pistols because they still get their melee attacks but can also shoot. Honestly since the chainsword is just "a close-combat weapon" only someone being unkind would question whether they have bolt pistols or not.

[Armond]

Ok, so just leave BPs on them as use them as CC instead of having to model my guys with Chainswords to rep CC weapons?

 

I see your point on Melta Bombs, adjustments will be made. So the Jump Packs are ok? Thanks for your help already! I just want to model them a certain way and make them decently effective. I need to get magnets so I can choose between Jump packs and no Jump packs when I feel like it. So the Sgt and 2 Vets with SS is ok then?

[thade]

Ok, so just leave BPs on them as use them as CC instead of having to model my guys with Chainswords to rep CC weapons?

This is strictly an artistic choice. :lol: In my opinion, Chainsword + Storm Shield looks cooler than Bolt Pistol + Chainsword. They are not really meaningfully different as - if you have a Pistol in hand - you get your base attacks in combat and can shoot once at 12", and if you have a Chainsword in hand, you get your base attacks...but can't shoot? Nobody has EVER challenged me on allowing those models to shoot. If you think you might have an issue with your local gaming crew, go on and stick bolt pistols in their hands. (If you go to super serious tournaments, you may have issues...but then you may want to use a very different Vanguard loadout.)

 

So the Jump Packs are ok?

I didn't remember seeing you say "Jump Packs" were in the loadout; I must've missed it. They are going to dramatically increase the cost of the squad and - if you're not BA - you're going to want either Drop Pods or Scouts with Locator Beacons on the field to help you deliver their Heroic Intervention...otherwise just deploy them normally and treat them like a normal jump team: keep them behind your gun-line and use them as fast cav-style support for counter-charges. Jump Packs make them very, very expensive, but now with re-rolls on random charge range and Hammer of Wrath, it might pay off. I have yet to test this. (I've only gotten in two games of 6th so far, sadly, so this is all theory-crafting with what I've read and seen.)

 

I need to get magnets so I can choose between Jump packs and no Jump packs when I feel like it.

I 100% support this idea. I love magnets.

 

So the Sgt and 2 Vets with SS is ok then?

Probably fine. A fist is an expensive upgrade, I'd recommend sticking it no on the Sergeant but on another model in the Vanguard. The sergeant comes with a free power weapon, so if you upgrade him with a shield (which I think is a good idea) consider giving him a power axe (for the AP2 goodness). Remember that sergeants have a new use now: they can accept Challenges to both protect their unit and allow an attached melee-monster IC put his own attacks into the unit you're fighting.

[Armond]

Ok, so just leave BPs on them as use them as CC instead of having to model my guys with Chainswords to rep CC weapons?

This is strictly an artistic choice. :tu: In my opinion, Chainsword + Storm Shield looks cooler than Bolt Pistol + Chainsword. They are not really meaningfully different as - if you have a Pistol in hand - you get your base attacks in combat and can shoot once at 12", and if you have a Chainsword in hand, you get your base attacks...but can't shoot? Nobody has EVER challenged me on allowing those models to shoot. If you think you might have an issue with your local gaming crew, go on and stick bolt pistols in their hands. (If you go to super serious tournaments, you may have issues...but then you may want to use a very different Vanguard loadout.)

 

Maybe use the bit that has a bolter and shield all in one?

 

So the Jump Packs are ok?

I didn't remember seeing you say "Jump Packs" were in the loadout; I must've missed it. They are going to dramatically increase the cost of the squad and - if you're not BA - you're going to want either Drop Pods or Scouts with Locator Beacons on the field to help you deliver their Heroic Intervention...otherwise just deploy them normally and treat them like a normal jump team: keep them behind your gun-line and use them as fast cav-style support for counter-charges. Jump Packs make them very, very expensive, but now with re-rolls on random charge range and Hammer of Wrath, it might pay off. I have yet to test this. (I've only gotten in two games of 6th so far, sadly, so this is all theory-crafting with what I've read and seen.)

 

Maybe use the drop pod the Dreadnought comes down in as the locator beacon carrier?

 

I need to get magnets so I can choose between Jump packs and no Jump packs when I feel like it.

I 100% support this idea. I love magnets.

Will be my first time using them, can't wait to try it!

 

So the Sgt and 2 Vets with SS is ok then?

Probably fine. A fist is an expensive upgrade, I'd recommend sticking it no on the Sergeant but on another model in the Vanguard. The sergeant comes with a free power weapon, so if you upgrade him with a shield (which I think is a good idea) consider giving him a power axe (for the AP2 goodness). Remember that sergeants have a new use now: they can accept Challenges to both protect their unit and allow an attached melee-monster IC put his own attacks into the unit you're fighting.

So throw the PF on a SS carrier? Or on someone else, maybe a guy without anything added? And who should carry melta bombs? The guys who carry shields due to survivability?

[thade]

The whole reason you give a one-wound model a Storm Shield is so that model can potentially weather a hit that some other model can't. Since a model with a Storm shield should be in front (due to new wound allocation) so he or she can face-plow through a Lascannon shot and survive, you don't want that model to also have another paid upgrade. If it does, and it fails, you lose the fist. The guy with the fist should not take any saves: hide him behind the shields! :tu: That's the idea in this new edition.