evilturkeyofdoom Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Hi I have a few razrobacks with heavy flamer turrets. Generally I have 5 man assault squads in them. I can't assault out of these anymore and I'm much more likely to get assaulted and killed if I get too close. Any idea what tactics I can use to keep one of my favourite vehicles alive? evilturkeyofdoom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lividjoker Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 You could use them as cover denial units. With the ability to take terrain in our lists, flamers will be of greater use. Shock and Awe tactics I.e. A unit of guard are in cover behind an Aegis defence line, you drive up heavy flamer them you take away their cover saves and kill them. Disembark up 6" behind/in front of the aegis line you get a cover save and there will be less chance of getting assaulted as a lot of guard have just roasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Just curious, when could we EVER assault out of Razorbacks? Not seeing "assault vehicle" anywhere.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Just curious, when could we EVER assault out of Razorbacks?Not seeing "assault vehicle" anywhere.... You moved flat out on T1 (18 inches), disembarked (2 inches + 1 inch base), moved (6 inches) and assaulted (6 inches). Total 33 inch threat range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StJude Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Just curious, when could we EVER assault out of Razorbacks?Not seeing "assault vehicle" anywhere.... You'll kick yourself when you read this, but I am pretty sure he is talking about the ability to disembark from a "stationary" vehicle and then assault that was allowed in 5th. As to the original question, I still plan on using a Heavy Flamer RB in an escalation league I am playing in. I will be zooming up 24inches anyway with my fast vehicle and hope to be in my enemies lines. Next turn, my DC will be disembarking (if the vehicle is still alive) and opening up with Bolters and a bloodlance from my attached libby. Again, if the vehicle is still alive, that twin linked heavy flamer should really help soften up the enemy with all the other shooting. In lower point games I think a Heavy Flamer RB is a viable option. I'll post some Battle Reports here detailing my findings. My first opponent usually runs BA or GK and I play him Thursday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_giles Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Just curious, when could we EVER assault out of Razorbacks?Not seeing "assault vehicle" anywhere.... In 3rd Edition before the NVR, you could assault out of anything that moved, even if it moved. Made the World Eaters an incredibly powerful list. I used rhino rush to turn more than one tournament table into a fountain of blood. That having been said, I was thinking about using HF razorbacks as an answer to horde armies. My current list has two that could be HB or HF, and once they've dropped off their devastators they could go rolling around doing drive-by burninations, kinda like a lightweight flamestorm Baal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonet40k Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 That having been said, I was thinking about using HF razorbacks as an answer to horde armies. My current list has two that could be HB or HF, and once they've dropped off their devastators they could go rolling around doing drive-by burninations, kinda like a lightweight flamestorm Baal. Against anything with a T less than 6 or a 3+ Save the TL HF is better, due to the rerolling failed wounds from Twin-Linked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Biskit Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 In 3rd Edition before the NVR, you could assault out of anything that moved, even if it moved. Made the World Eaters an incredibly powerful list. I used rhino rush to turn more than one tournament table into a fountain of blood. Probably why they got hit with the nerf stick :lol: I think the loss of the ability to assault from a stationary transport is the death knell for BA mech. Heavy flamer razors might be usefull to harry infantry but I think maby that land speeders may be a better option for that role. Time for a DC list me thinks..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Maybe flamerbacks are the way of the future? Since we can't assault out of a stationary transport anymore unless it gets blown up we should take a cheap transport that's expendable but dangerous up close? Jam it in your opponents face and make them deal with it. Of course, the same thing could be done with rhinos that also have firing ports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 What about ten man assault squads with 2 plasmaguns shooting from a rhino? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 What about ten man assault squads with 2 plasmaguns shooting from a rhino? Yeah, something like that. But that squad will cost a lot more. Going 10 man dilutes the transport rebate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liberate_tutame Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 What about ten man assault squads with 2 plasmaguns shooting from a rhino? This might be viable but moving 6" really limits your range, to only 18" shooting out of the Rhino or 24" if you disembark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 What about ten man assault squads with 2 plasmaguns shooting from a rhino? Yeah, something like that. But that squad will cost a lot more. Going 10 man dilutes the transport rebate. Well yeah, it's 65 points more than a flamerback with a standard 5 dude squad and no upgrades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Well yeah, it's 65 points more than a flamerback with a standard 5 dude squad and no upgrades. It's a little more than that. The barebones flamerback squad is 120 pts and the dual plasma in rhino is 235. But you know, apples and oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Well yeah, it's 65 points more than a flamerback with a standard 5 dude squad and no upgrades. It's a little more than that. The barebones flamerback squad is 120 pts and the dual plasma in rhino is 235. But you know, apples and oranges. How are you getting 235? I'm getting 185. Assault squad + 5 men + 2xplasmagun - transport discount = 185 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Well yeah, it's 65 points more than a flamerback with a standard 5 dude squad and no upgrades. It's a little more than that. The barebones flamerback squad is 120 pts and the dual plasma in rhino is 235. But you know, apples and oranges. How are you getting 235? I'm getting 185. Assault squad + 5 men + 2xplasmagun - transport discount = 185 Not sure if this is against board policy so I'll leave the units out and post the numbers only. (190+30+50)-35= 235 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 We can still fire and move 12" (and tankshock!) with our flame razors. Should be a pretty good unit as long as we have firesupport to demech our opponent. Only problem is that the assault squad isn't very good. It's not good in assault, doesn't have a lot of shooting and it isn't exactly durable either. Even with priest coverage (that will cost extra) they are pretty harmless. A 6-man squad of DC however packs some punch in both shooing and CC, has built in FnP and will never run away. 6 DC in a flamerback is 175. Bit pricey but not too bad considering that you can drive 24" first turn to put them in your opponents lap turn 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 The big problem of the flamerback is that it has to be right on top of the opponent to do its damage. Now that taking out tanks in assault is a piece of urine, that really is not a good place to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Well yeah, it's 65 points more than a flamerback with a standard 5 dude squad and no upgrades. It's a little more than that. The barebones flamerback squad is 120 pts and the dual plasma in rhino is 235. But you know, apples and oranges. How are you getting 235? I'm getting 185. Assault squad + 5 men + 2xplasmagun - transport discount = 185 Not sure if this is against board policy so I'll leave the units out and post the numbers only. (190+30+50)-35= 235 Right, so I forgot the transport cost before deducting the discount ... :) I'm not just bad at math, I'm really bad ... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 The big problem of the flamerback is that it has to be right on top of the opponent to do its damage. Now that taking out tanks in assault is a piece of urine, that really is not a good place to be. But that's kinda what we want. The only way we'll get to assault from a non assault vehicle in a reasonable manner is if the opponent does us a favor and blows it up in his turn. So my thinking is to present him with a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. Don't shoot or assault the flamerback and I'll happily tankshock you into a nice formation and roast you when it's my turn. Let's not forget tankshocks are more dangerous now and the damage table is slightly more forgiving should you attempt a 'death or glory'. Blow it up in your shooting phase and I'll be able to assault when it's my turn. The same thing goes for destroying it in CC. If you use multiple units for this it means that a relatively inexpensive razor squads has taken up a lot of attention from several enemy units that will 'waste' at least one phase each. Blow it up in the shooting phase and then assault the contents? Sure, I'll get to overwatch and fight. I'm ok with that. You better make sure that you don't wreck it with glances, because that's the best case scenario for me. Unless you have a huge unit and can surround the vehicle I should be able to emergency disembark out of LoS (using the wreck) thus denying you the following assault. If you can see the squad it still means taking danerous terrain tests on your assault move and overwatch fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 You can't charge when your vehicle was destroyed, so that doesn't work sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 You can't charge when your vehicle was destroyed, so that doesn't work sadly. page nr? I checked and as far I can see the only thing you can't do is taking overwatch shots after an emergency disembark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 p79. Models disembarking cannot declare a charge in their subsequent assault phase. Emphasis mine. If I blow up your transport in my turn, your models subsequent assault phase is in your turn. Honestly I feel min-maxing the rebate is dead in this edition. But the flamer back is still well and truely alive For 55 points compared to a 50 point Rhino, a flamerback isn't a bad buy on it's own to tack onto a unit. Now that it gets a 24" move it can find some nice cover on turn one and then turn two drive up and roast, or just play the LOS blocking/annoyance game. You can even shift a combat squad up the field while doing so. Sure you can't carry two combat squads in it, but for your tacticals or sternguard you probably want the Lascannon/Plasmacannon heavy weapon camping back anyway. So why not buy the 5 point TL flamer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 p79. Models disembarking cannot declare a charge in their subsequent assault phase. Emphasis mine. Honestly I feel min-maxing the rebate is dead in this edition. But the flamer back is still well and truely alive So the only way to get an assault is getting blown up or making an emergency disembark. Points efficiency is not dead just because we have a new edition. I have to say that I'm not really seeing the appeal of putting anything (that wants to go on the offensive) in a non assault vehicle. The flamerback squad is looking less and less appealing and the twin plasma squad suggested is extremely expensive for what it does. Buying it for a stationary squad like devastators and using it empty to support an assault squad on foot or bikers seems to be the only way that they will be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I say min-maxing the rebate for razors is dead, because 5 man assault squads aren't worth the 65 point spend before a special weapon, as a spam choice for troops to get razorbacks at a discount. By the time you add a plasma gun, that's 80 points, and you'd better off taking 5 bolters for 90. Tactical squads are that much better, Genuine assault squads are that much better, Death company are that much better in this edition. Lascannons and Bolters are back in fashion, and if you're going to put a squad in a non assault vehicle, make it shooty, because you aren't assaulting anything. In saying that, I did the 2x combat assault squad in a Rhino today with dual melta and naked sarge - worked alright because the rolls went my way and I tabled my Grey Knight friend bottom of turn two. Better than Jump packs? Hard to say. I think two units was one two many. Either way, the stars of the show were the Tactical squad with Missle Launcher, the Death Company with Bolters, and the Epistolary with Misfortune and Prescience. Bolters all the way baby. Flamerbacks are still good value with Tactical squads if you plan on combatsquads, sure. Heavy weapon back, special and combi in the Flamerback, boost 24" first turn, away you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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