A Galaxy Divided

[Captain Rolunde]

Greetings Brothers (and Sisters).

 

I've been brewing ideas in my head for an Alternate Version HH, and inspired by talk on this thread finally decided to get it all down.

 

For the most part it the actual HH plays out the same up to and including the end result of the Emperor killing Horus and going into stasis on the Throne.

 

The main intent of divergence being how things are immediately following.

 

So here is my take on the outcme of the Horus Heresy re-imagined:

 

~

Most of what we know as happening so far from the Black Library novels still plays out, up to and including what goes down between Horus and the Emperor and the death of Sanguinius.

 

Abaddon retrieves Horus' body, assumes control of his forces and they flee for the Eye, forming the Black Legion, etc.

 

Dorn takes over Governance of Terra, seeing as he was the Emperor's Praetorian he assumes the mantle of Regent.

 

Any Loyalists from the Traitor Legions that make it in from the cold fall under his patronage (such as in seen with Garro and the like) as do the Blood Angels since their Primarch dies in the war while they are fighting alongside the Fists. They have suffered a terrible loss and out of respect to Sanguinius sacrifice remain their own Legion, but do join and support Dorn as Regent of Terra.

 

I haven't put much thought into what happens with Corax, Vulkan and the Khan, just that they would get along with the Primarchs in the manner we already know they did before that point.

 

Russ maintains good relations with Dorn but consolidates himself back to Fenris and although he will in part support Dorn, he will not bend the knee, as Primarchs are want to see each other as equals.

 

Seems the same would pretty much be said for the Lion, especially considering that He seems to only owe any fealty to the Emperor himself, so there would be a bit more friction between him and Dorn than the other 4 "neutral" Primarchs.

 

 

Guilliman however, decides that Terra is too scragged to be the heart of the Empire now. He refuses to acknowledge Dorn as Regent and breaks away forming his Eastern Empire. Possibly even going so far as demanding that the Emperor be handed over so that he can be cared for on Ultramar.

 

(So we still get friction between Guilliman and Dorn as we would have seen with Guilliman putting the Codex Astartes into use, only possibly even more so.)

 

Those that did fall to Chaos during the HH are still gone to Chaos and head for the Eye as happens.

 

And of course it still remains to be seen what the Alpha Legion are and were up to, but even if they were trying to be Loyal they did side with the Traitors so would be seen as being on the wrong side of that. At the very best they would be Outcasts and Renegades, if not actually Fallen.

 

One thing I would like to try and work out though is a way for Magnus to still be somewhat of a Loyalist, not a true "fallen to Chaos" Primarch/Legion.

 

But at the very least, after the sacking of Prospero they would have had to set up shop on a new planet, either across the Galaxy, or near if not in the Eye and still probably end up performing the Rubric due to their problems with mutation.

 

But the end result of all this was that the same events mostly play out, while the Primarchs remain largely in charge of their Legions and the Imperium is divided into several separate and disparate factions. Generally with the Primarchs acting as Lords over their worlds.

 

Eventually Guilliman's Empire and Legion grow large enough he still enacts the Codex and we see what we would recognise as Successor Chapters spring up, easier for them to cover the Eastern Empire, with Chapter Masters acting as a sort of local Governor.

 

Dorn having some "extra" Astartes on hand, would form his part of what we would see as the Second Founding, with the Imperial Fists maintaining their role as the Emperor's Praetorians.

 

 

The Black Templars still being formed and going on Crusade as we know happened.

 

The Crimson Fists could be formed of remnants of the non-Traitors, likely also in conjunction with additional members of the Imperial Fists for traditional Astartes "off Terra" actions.

 

The Adeptus Custodes still maintain their traditional role watching over the Emperor and guarding the Throne.

 

Seeing as I love the idea behind the Death Watch I could still see it as popping up as a way of maintaining and acknowledging friendly relations between the Primarchs.

 

It's possible under these circumstance the Grey Knights would never be formed, as the founders could end up as part of the Black Templars, Crimson Fists and especially the Death Watch (which for my own fluff I would maybe want to rename the Knights Errant.)

 

 

~

 

 

Any ideas and commentary is welcome, please feel free to discuss.

[Raven Angel]

The Grey Kights where formed before the death of Horus by Malcador at the order of the Emperor. They just didn't show up till after the scouring was well underway. On the Magnus front the only way to save him and his men is to rewrite the Battle of Prospero or have it never happen. Otherwise Magnus is done as he turns to Chose just to escape the carnage. With Dorns temperment there will be no peace if Guilliman actually cedes from the imperium. The same can be said of Russ or the Lion as both would take such an action as high treason and go after Ultramar with or without permission.

[Captain Rolunde]

Heya Raven Angel.

 

Thanks for the input, you've given me a few things to consider! :(

 

Good to know about the Grey Knights!

 

I was a little hazy on the pacing of them being formed and the timing with that and the deaths of both Malcador and the Emperor.

 

- As a total aside, I subscribe to your "7. list" there. ;-)

[Raven Angel]

Glad to help. :(

[feifei]

Sorry , i don't understand what you said.

[Jackalos]

And of course it still remains to be seen what the Alpha Legion are and were up to, but even if they were trying to be Loyal they did side with the Traitors so would be seen as being on the wrong side of that. At the very best they would be Outcasts and Renegades, if not actually Fallen.

I'm not sure the Alpha Legion could ever be deemed true 'loyalists'. Loyalist, implies loyalty to the Emperor. Their decision considered the Emperor's death as a necessary step in saving humanity.

 

On the other hand, this decision was supposed to destroy Chaos, so you could argue that they're loyalists to the Emperor's ideals (eradicate Chaos).

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Not a troll post, but so this is basically what would happen if the Primarchs had lived and not died, then?

[Captain Rolunde]

Not a troll post, but so this is basically what would happen if the Primarchs had lived and not died, then?

 

Well the idea is that for the most part the changes start with the death of the Emperor and Dorn not" freaking out" and being overwhelmed with guilt/grief, but taking charge.

 

Primarchs that died before that point, so at least Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus and of course Horus are dead. Those that die and/or go missing after still could.

 

Part of the motivation behind this tweak being that my group has several Marine players and we're gearing up for a free for all campaign and several of us prefer the lore and setting of the 30k era Great Crusade, Horus Heresy, etc and this lets us get some of the flavor from that and have opposing factions of Marines.

 

And DIYers have more freedom to not follow the Codex, if they want to use another army Codex, as long as they stick with it the whole campaign they're covered.

 

And also this way we get none of those "I play Death Guard lost in the Warp for 10k years."

 

 

Now back to the Alpha LEgion, that is a very good point. No matter what, I guess they are Traitors against the Emperor.

 

They may be trying to follow his wish of "saving" humanity / destroying Chaos, but either way they have broken with the Imperium and gone Renegade.

 

-

 

One reason for keeping the same Traitors and Loyalists is that, it is my own opinion that unless you take the origins of the Heresy all the way back to their pods being scattered and start the changes there, those that became corrupted or not would still end up the same.

 

IMO the Heresy did not hinge on Horus Falling, the Fallen were destined to fall due to their own issues. That's sort of been being discussed in other threads so no need to rehash it here. But like I said, IMO those that fall would always fall unless everything was changed. I guess what I mean is Chaos picked the ones they did because with how things played out leading up to the fall of Horus, they were each ripe for Chaos picking. If someone else was picked as Warmaster, the same Primarchs would still have fallen.

 

And like I sort of mentioned above, this opens it up so that there is plenty of room for conflict, friction and animosity between the Primarchs that did survive up to the death of the Big E.

 

(I've seen it mentioned before in another thread that the relations between the Primarchs was a but "Game of Thrones" which you may see influenced my goals here.)

 

 

Russ and the Lion, don't get along.

Dorn and Guilliman, don't get along.

 

Dorn is Regent or Steward of Terra, but he is not the Emperor, therefore the other Primarchs do not see him as being their Lord. They are each Princes and there is no clear line of succession.

 

Vulkan, Corax and the Khan seem to mostly lay a bit low, recouping from their heavy losses for a while. Then it is likely that Vulkan goes off probably to find something to restore the Emperor.

 

Maybe Corax goes off after Curze. M'shen was still dispatched to kill him and eventually appears to have done so, Corax continues pursuing information on this to verify if he really is indeed dead.

 

Now to maybe help define some more differences.

 

Seeing as roughly 70 Death Guard make it to Terra (or at least Luna) and the DG Legion is declared Traitor. But they want to stay in the fight and as we see they do end up under the patronage of Dorn.

 

The "Betrayed" generally seem inclined to want to go back to what their Legions were like before their Primarchs turned Traitor. Example being with Qruze we see him go back to his Luna Wolves colors, to distance himself from the Sons of Horus.

 

So the Death Guard are a Traitor Legion, the Survivors form a new Chapter under Dorn. Now in a way part of the Imperial Fists, they become the Crimson Fists. Marking their armor in a manner reminiscent of their old Dusk Raiders colors. So now they are sporting blue-grey armor with the entire right arm in red.

 

Any surviving Luna Wolves (at least Qruze and Loken) see the strength that was had through the bonds of honor and brotherhood between Legions as with the mixing of those on Isstvaan III, and they form the Deathwatch. Remember that Loken was pretty set against any form of secrecy so the Grey Knights thing doesn't really suit him.

 

Garro and Tylos Rubio are the primary founding parts of the Grey Knights.

 

We know that Mesa Varren survives and for now we'll assume that he has some number of Loyal World Eaters with his, as happened with Garro. Maybe they become the Soul Drinkers, Iron Knights or the Carcharodons.

 

Now back to the Primarchs, although the others aside from Guilliman accept Dorn as Regent of Terra, and the High Lords of Terra would at best be an advisory council, they do not end up in charge.

 

But all Primarchs consider themselves equals and also keeping in mind that they are not only Generals and in a way Lords of their own realms, but also Brothers.

 

So the others, such as Russ for example say "Yes Dorn, you were Father's Praetorian and I support you as acting Regent of Terra, but I do not take orders from you."

 

So now each Primarch has his own sort of realm, it's just that most of them acknowledge Dorn as Regent of Terra and the overall Imperium where Guilliman has crafted a health Empire in the East and refuses to acknowledge Dorn as Regent.

 

Guilliman also takes advantage of his empire's greater resources to begin work on his own Golden Throne, with the idea that he is best suited to guard the Emperor and Ultramar should be the new center of the Emperium.

[Ubermensch Commander]

An interesting start but there are a great many questions raised.

I am curious as this seems to ignore all of the non-space marine factions involved post Heresy. The Codex reforms worked because alot of folks, notably in the upper echelons of the still reeling Imperium, did not want another Horus situation cropping up. Heck, I see many Primarchs getting irked with this "regent" business. No one took umbrage with Dorn essentially doing what Horus tried to do, PARTICULARLY the Blood Angels whose primarch sacrificed himself to prevent exactly that from happening? (A primarch claiming the mantle of leadership of the entire Imperium)Many supported the reforms of the codex, recognizing its necessity after the Heresy. For them to all side wtih Dorn seems a very very strong divergence from their characters as portrayed in 40K.

 

 

The High Lords of Terra and the official break down of power post Heresy stemmed from Guilliman's efforts to establish checks and balances in the Imperium. How does the Imperium's power structure function and what prevents another Heresy from erupting, especially with "draconian" Dorn presumably going all "I am the Law!" on people.

 

Why would the Black Templars form if no Codex reforms prompted it?

 

Presumably Guilliman still enacts his reforms, what does this mean for the Eastern or "Ultramar" Imperium of his?

 

What has stopped Magnus from being easily duped by Tzeentch in this universe as well? Presuming he refused the deal, what stops his Legion from spazzing out and being reduced to gibbering Chaos Spawns? Heck, what stopped RUSS from savaging his world?

 

Side note: Dorn and Guilliman generally did get along, quite well. Guilliman even saved Dorn and his Legion, opponent to his reforms, when Dorn led his disastrous assault during the Iron Cage incident.

[Captain Rolunde]

Heya Uber'!

 

Questions are good, they show the areas that need more work. ;-)

 

Some of that will need more thought.

 

As to the BTs the my thought there being that in the time immediately following the "enthronement" of the Emperor, the Imperial Fists are rebuilding/fortifying Terra and although the Custodes are their to act as E's personal body guard, the IFs are still fulfilling their purpose as the Emperor's Praetorians.

 

Focusing more on the "planning, organising and fortifying" aspects the IF are sometimes known for.

 

The BTs would be branch of the IFs that, in keeping with what the original purpose behind them was, is formed of those Fists that pretty much really need to go out on a Crusade ("the most zealous of the Imperial Fists"), headed by Captain/Chapter Master Sigismund.

 

Dorn is their Primarch but Sigismund is their de-facto leader.

 

So where the Fists could still be known for the analytical abilities, planning and strategies, the Black Templar Chapter is engaged in what we know will turn out to be a pretty much never ending crusade.

 

Maybe making Dorn "Regent" of Terra is going too far? Perhaps "Steward" might fit the idea better.

 

My intent with the Primarchs is that the remaining Loyalists may not be in full blown war with each other but there is still a lot of Friction there and cause for clashing.

 

So maybe Dorn has not basically taken over, he is attempting to govern Terra and keep the Imperium on track, but with even more friction from his brothers as they're all trying to figure out what to do.

 

Guilliman brings forth the Codex as a means of re-form in this time of Crisis, some support it others don't and then things get ugly. I'm sure many of them would be against the High Lords taking charge, feeling that as the Sons of the Emperor they should remain in control.

 

Guilliman may be trying to prevent a repeat of what just happened with the Heresy, but the Primarchs are all proud. Clearly the Heresy was due to the Traitors own weakness.

 

Uglier even due to the fact that after the flat out betrayal of some of the brother Primarchs. Especially with things like Ferrus death at the hands of Fulgrim, and I haven't read the novel but I guess there is something about the Lion being tricked into handing over some super weapon to one of his traitorous brothers as well?

 

As to Magnus, it looks like his fate will most likely still end up running its original course. I haven't read A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns yet to see how all his stuff plays out. My intent is for the BL stuff to stand with pretty much any changes occurring during what is basically the end period of the HH.

 

Ah, back to one point. As things stand right now, I don't see the idea of Dorn standing in for the Emperor as being "the same" as what Horus was attempting.

 

Here's what I mean:

 

Horus specifically set out to over throw the Emperor, the bring him down, kill him, and destroy what the Emperor had specifically been building.

 

Dorn was on Terra at his father's request, serving as his Praetorian, fighting alongside him during the Siege on Terra. When the Emperor is put on the Golden Throne, Dorn steps up to preserve what the Imperium as it was built up to that point.

 

So, As I see it, Horus -wants to kill the Emperor and destroy all he built.

Dorn - supported the Emperor and would have done so to his own death and acts to preserve all he built.

 

Hmmmm... maybe a more civil way for things to work out is for the Primarchs to form their own sort of Council or Senate (or any other better term someone knows of?) as they try to hold the Imperium together with the Emperor, still wanting to maintain control, while Guilliman sees there is trouble in a potential repeat of what just happened and lobbies for the Codex to be passed.

[StrayCatt]

Something to consider in your rvisionist theory. We know that Sigmusund went to Isstvan III ... Presumably, if there were any loyalist survivors, he would bring them back to Terra. What if it were those loyalists from the various Legions that became the Black Templar, being led on a crusade of attonement by the Emperor's Champion.

 

I have started to wonder if this might actually be part of the direction they are heading with the HH books. Heck, if you look closely at some of the chapters that are now in existence, there are several chapters that come so close to the livery of the traitor legions, even in name, that you have to wonder if those chapters were formed from the loyalists.

[Captain Rolunde]

Hey Stray,

 

I like that Survivors = Black Templar Crusade idea; it does make sense that any survivors would go on what would basically be a sort of Penitent Crusade.

 

I imagine they've got a lot of anger to work out, and could feel like they have a lot to prove since their own Primarchs/Legions tried to exterminate them.

 

I do agree there is also some potential for some of the other SM Chapters to be based on some of those Legions, but seeing as at this point in time with the altered outcome, in particular the Codex not yet being in place there would not be much call for very many additional Chapters outside of the Realm of Ultramar.

 

Seeing as either way Dorn seems to find extra Astartes on his hands it seemed like giving them 2nd Founding was a potential way of giving them something to do and make good use of these particular veterans of the Heresy and so much fighting against their own traitor brothers.

 

And we know for sure there are some accepted Death Guard which as I said above I thought could fight into the roll of the Crimson Fists by using an updated version of their old Legion colors.

 

So, so far it seems most likely there would be the remaining Legions, the Fists have a couple of "spin off chapters" for lack of a better term coming to mind right now, in the form of the Crimson Fists (former Death Guard) and the Black Templars (potential survivors of Isstvan III lead by Sigismund as Chapter Master.

 

The remaining Primarchs forming a sort of Council and trying to keep the Emperor's plans in effect, or at least the Imperium stable while also trying to see if they can heal him somehow.

 

Guilliman is pushing for the Codex to be used, his Realm being an example of how it could be a good thing, but some disagree.

 

The Deathwatch is created as a means of maintaining brotherly honor bonds across the Legions/Chapters, probably headed by in part at least by Qruze and Loken.

 

The Grey Knights are getting themselves set up, I'd still say with Garro and Tylos Rubio in charge of that.

 

Heh, at this point it doesn't even look like all that much has really changed from what we know of the actual story so far, just some speculation on how some of it will play out in the end... ;-)

 

Mostly though it is still working, as it has muddled the Codex going into effect so far, set back the Highlords of Terra in favor of the Primarch Council so far, while trying to make sure that there is plenty of room for friction (if not total war) between them, and slowed down the potential growth of the 2nd Founding so far.

 

We've basically still got most of the loyal Legions, although most if not all of them are in pretty rough shape, and managed to add 4 Chapters besides any of the ones Guiliman creates from the Ultras.

 

And I guess this way the Blood Angels could remain as a Legion without a Primarch, with no need to try and stuff them under Dorn as well now.

[DarkLiege]

By chance are you going to make a timeline of this alt. history of the imperium cause for now your ideas are a little, lack of better words, all over the place. By having a timeline, we could see where is this going. Just a thought. :D maybe try to add in a little twist to the events now and then. :lol:

 

Hopes this helps. :D I'm glad that I inspired you to have your own alt. history to the 40k. looking forward to more to come! :D

[Captain Rolunde]

Heya DarkLiege.

 

No, I don't really have any plans for a Timeline; because so far my intent really has been to keep the events of the Heresy proper in line with what is presented in (at least most of) the books as a few of our players have been reading them, myself included.

 

And the primary intent wasn't so much to recreate the a new Heresy by changing things up as "If Primarch-x/ not-Horus was Warmaster" but to set the stage for the forces of even the remaining Loyal Primarchs to not be getting along 100%.

 

So far the Novels haven't filled out the entire HH so at some point it may be necessary to go off the rails with what they're putting out, bur for now, like I said I'm trying to stay true to most of the better novels.

 

As you can see with my first post, I had intended for Dorn to take over as at least trying to be in charge and emphasize the conflict that we would later see between him and Guilliman when G tried to enforce the Codex.

 

But after getting some opinions it does seem like having Guilli break off might be going too far and potentially make him a Traitor as well (not a follower of Chaos but a Renegade.)

 

Another intent was to try and keep the Legions around and cut back on the number of new Chapters seen in the 2nd Founding; and also to make real use of surviving loyal Astartes from the Traitor Legions.

 

Things do shuffle around as points of view and questions have come up, but I do think it has been narrowing down what turned out to be a work in progress into something that seems to be defining itself, if at the same time turning out to be less of a changed outcome in the end.

 

As things seem to stand right now, the HH is true up to the Emperor killing Horus, and the E goes on the Throne.

 

We diverge in that originally Dorn seems to have a break massive break down (when he is "stricken with grief") and here he keeps his head together a bit better.

 

Rather than leading his Legion off on a "crusade of penance, but instead forms the Black Templars chapter of the Imperial Fists. Which it is looking now as if that will contain the potential survivors of Isstvan 3 lead by Chapter Master Sigismund.

 

The remaining 70-ish former Death Guards off the Eisenstein are also serving under the Fists, forming the Crimson Fist chapter.

 

Their heraldry/chapter colors being a combination of their old Dusk Raiders Legion markings and those of their new Imperial Fist patron Legion.

 

Loken and Qruze form the Deathwatch. Seeing how effectively a strong bond of brotherhood can unite the Astartes beyond Legion/Chapter lines (as seen on Isstvan III).

I see the secrecy of the Grey Knights as going against Loken's pretty strong conviction of not hiding the truth of things.

 

But we'll assume that Garro and Rubio still have gone off to form the Grey Knights.

 

Mesa Varren is still a but undefined really. I expect will get more on him when we see what happens when Siginsmund gets to Isstvan III and I can get a better feel for him post Eisenstein revision (since Garro and the DGs took the ship instead of him and the WEs).

 

He could easily just end up in the Templars and as part of the Deathwatch, or even start off one of the other 2nd Founding Chapters as an alternate source of most likely either the Space Sharks/Carcharodons Astra, Iron Knights or Soul Drinkers.

 

The Primarchs are sort of trying to get along and keep the Imperium together, but they have not yet been willing to let the Highlords of Terra take over.

 

I do want there to be plenty of friction between them though, although they are Loyal to the Emperor that is most of what binds them together now. Guilliman and his supporters are pushing for the Codex, but Dorn and some of the others are against it, so for now there is a stalemate, which by its nature would keep the Codex out of effect outside of Ultramar.

 

But since the Primarchs are fresh from the betrayals of the Heresy and the virtual death of the Emperor, they do have issues and are not one big happy band of brothers. And Primarchs do seem to be pretty hot-headed. ;-)

 

This part might still need some work, trying to give conflict without total war, but not also make everything seem all happy and of one unified purpose either.

 

Our own campaign is focusing on M30-31, so really the future is still wide open at that point. (Our Tyranid and Necron players is basically counting them as Xenos/Megarachnids and AI troopers for maintaining Lore.)

 

So yeah, I guess in a way it is almost like our own little version of the Black Library events, rather than a full revision of the Timeline.

 

In that, it looks like by the time M41 rolls around so much information would be lost and forgotten, our events could be the truth but no one would know and everything at that point would appear exactly as it is by normal lore.

 

The big exceptions being the chances the Codex never takes effect outside of Ultramar (or at least possibly delayed for some time, it looks like it does take 7 years for it go actually go into affect anyhow). So some of the Legions could remain as Legions, (notably the Imperial Fists, Salamanders, and Space Wolves; as they are the most opposed to the Codex) and the Templars and Crimson Fists being actually formed from the loyal remnants of Traitor Legions rather than Imperial Fists (or at least not 100% IF stock).