Grimtooth Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Debating the intricate details regarding power weapons on another forum (see sig), I researched our codex and the FAQ regarding our Crozius Arcanum. Now I already knew that other, lesser SM chapters had all their crozius arcanums set to be mauls and that our wolf priests were free to be converted away with the whole rules are what the model is modeled with. However, I was also surprised to see that Ulrik does not even have a crozius. It isn't in his detailed section or in his wargear profile. Instead he has a......power weapon. Oh to build an Ulrik now with a magnetized power weapon arm to equip him with whatever I feel like!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon950 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Well.....in the past he did has a frost weapon, which made him badass. But now, mark it to a codex writer that usually writes alien codexs and didn't know the difference between the 2 and the years between 5th and 6th. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3116223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khine Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 hmm .. ulfrik with a WC ( blade ) B) that would look really awesome. Nice catch there Brother Ramses! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3116229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erluin Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 A lot of SW players must have an older version of the codex, mine clearly states "Crozius Arcanum" for wolf priests. As for Ulrik, I am seeing this same argument for Necron phase swords (whatever they are called) being modeled as axes or maces, and Eldar Banshees being modeled with whatever since they also simply list "power weapon" in their wargear. Whatever your opinion may be in these other cases, it seems to me that a single ruling that acovers all of these instances should be put forward by GW. For example, arguing for Ulrik to have freedom of choice, while denying Banshees the same choice seems rather hypocritical in a purely logical sense. Some argue that you must use what the stock model comes equipped with before any physical modifications. This argument has a problem in that some models do not come with all the options available, forcing the player to modify the stock model in order to legally field the unit/model. This argument also denies players any use of scratch-built models (drop pods anyone?) if you argue for that side of it. I have also heard the argument that Ulrik is a unique model/character, while the other two examples above are "merely" soldiers, and therefore only he has the privilege to choose what he can use before each battle... Personally I would rather paint and model than argue rules. I have already seen 2 grown men get red in the face over the new implications of the term "power weapon." If you want to chop your Ulrik up and have a supply of magnetized arms, sounds cool to me. I for one won't be surprised if/when GW starts pinning down who has what in regards to certain models and power weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3116232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostclaw222 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 If we want to get really technical, the weapon in question is a crozius lupine, but a rose is a rose is a rose.... Personally, I'm fine with the crozius being a maul. WYSIWYG notwithstanding, the idea of Ulrik smacking somebody so hard they're next to useless while they try to recover from the beat-down seems fluffily good. Heck, I can even hear the concussion toll of the thing hitting heavy armor like some great bell.... Erluin raises a good point: one size should fit all. Crozii (sp?) are not, per se, unusual weapons; they're power weapons. Much of the recent fluff descriptions of them (I'm thinking of AD-B's descriptions in First Heretic and Helsreach) has explicitly described them as mauls. I know, I know--there is no strict canon in 40K. But when the rules are attempting to be fluffy, I'm obliged to cooperate and go along. Would that he still had a frostblade.... All that being said, if other Wolf Priests or other units in other armies have a counts-as power weapon that varies from what the kit has, so be it. I'm in the process of making variant power weapon toters for all my GH and BC packs now, so that I can use whichever form of weapon I want in a given game. Modeling to my advantage? Sure. But I'm actually modeling again, and if it means I'm enjoying myself, I'm playing by the rules, you can do it, too, and GW is making money and keeping us all interested, I fail to see who loses anything. I think GW has more important things to figure out, like the definitive list of unique/unusual weapons, so that axe-toting, high-initiative units aren't squat-nerfed, and figuring out how much everyone has to pay for flakk missiles, who can get them, etc. /two cents Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3116249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Its a curious oversight from our FAQ, as every fluff example I can recall has Wolf Priests armed with suitably Wolf-ified Crozius Mauls. On top of that, the only 2 official models (Ulric and the GD Model Sternhammer) unambiguously have mauls... Though no generic Model and no specification in the FAQ leaves us free to use whatever we have modelled. As it is, both of mine have Mauls and I'll happily play them as such. S6 Concussive will be magestic against Nids, Crons etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3116287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 A lot of SW players must have an older version of the codex, mine clearly states "Crozius Arcanum" for wolf priests. As for Ulrik, I am seeing this same argument for Necron phase swords (whatever they are called) being modeled as axes or maces, and Eldar Banshees being modeled with whatever since they also simply list "power weapon" in their wargear. Whatever your opinion may be in these other cases, it seems to me that a single ruling that acovers all of these instances should be put forward by GW. For example, arguing for Ulrik to have freedom of choice, while denying Banshees the same choice seems rather hypocritical in a purely logical sense. Some argue that you must use what the stock model comes equipped with before any physical modifications. This argument has a problem in that some models do not come with all the options available, forcing the player to modify the stock model in order to legally field the unit/model. This argument also denies players any use of scratch-built models (drop pods anyone?) if you argue for that side of it. I have also heard the argument that Ulrik is a unique model/character, while the other two examples above are "merely" soldiers, and therefore only he has the privilege to choose what he can use before each battle... Personally I would rather paint and model than argue rules. I have already seen 2 grown men get red in the face over the new implications of the term "power weapon." If you want to chop your Ulrik up and have a supply of magnetized arms, sounds cool to me. I for one won't be surprised if/when GW starts pinning down who has what in regards to certain models and power weapons. Why, by all that is holy, would anyone care if you want to put X or Y powerweapon on your model? Why would anyone say you couldnt? And who do they think they are to stymie someone elses modeling? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3116347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 A lot of SW players must have an older version of the codex, mine clearly states "Crozius Arcanum" for wolf priests. As for Ulrik, I am seeing this same argument for Necron phase swords (whatever they are called) being modeled as axes or maces, and Eldar Banshees being modeled with whatever since they also simply list "power weapon" in their wargear. Whatever your opinion may be in these other cases, it seems to me that a single ruling that acovers all of these instances should be put forward by GW. For example, arguing for Ulrik to have freedom of choice, while denying Banshees the same choice seems rather hypocritical in a purely logical sense. Some argue that you must use what the stock model comes equipped with before any physical modifications. This argument has a problem in that some models do not come with all the options available, forcing the player to modify the stock model in order to legally field the unit/model. This argument also denies players any use of scratch-built models (drop pods anyone?) if you argue for that side of it. I have also heard the argument that Ulrik is a unique model/character, while the other two examples above are "merely" soldiers, and therefore only he has the privilege to choose what he can use before each battle... Personally I would rather paint and model than argue rules. I have already seen 2 grown men get red in the face over the new implications of the term "power weapon." If you want to chop your Ulrik up and have a supply of magnetized arms, sounds cool to me. I for one won't be surprised if/when GW starts pinning down who has what in regards to certain models and power weapons. Why, by all that is holy, would anyone care if you want to put X or Y powerweapon on your model? Why would anyone say you couldnt? And who do they think they are to stymie someone elses modeling? People seem to have this misconception that models by GW are sacrosanct WYSIWYG not realizing that it was a planned and calculated move by GW to create and FAQ older codexes with the generic power weapon and the terms behind determining what kind of power weapon your model is equipped. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3116686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iacton Qruze Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 People seem to have this misconception that models by GW are sacrosanct WYSIWYG not realizing that it was a planned and calculated move by GW to create and FAQ older codexes with the generic power weapon and the terms behind determining what kind of power weapon your model is equipped. Eh, you can't win. when it's something that applies to someone else, it's sacrosanct. When it's something that applies to them that they don't like, they ram their head in the sand. Now you've got people mounting mauls and spears on some models, and then saying that axes don't count as axes, because they don't like how those rules interact with their guys' initiative value (mainly Dante and Glaive Encarmine guys right now). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3116727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow warrior Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I don't understand why people say it is not a axe!? Then what the hell em I looking at? Dante has an axe and he gains an extra attack and strenght with AP2 for it. Banshee have just the normal powersword cause agian I see a sword not an axe or a mault and why would they want one? I understand the codex says its a powerweapon but that does not make it whatever you want it to be. The model makes it what it is and if you have the option to choose between an axe or sword then you can choose or pay the points for the upgrade. WYSIWYG Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3116829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iacton Qruze Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Honestly, it's pretty cut and dry. as long as the banshee entry says "power weapon" and they want to model axes or spears or whatever, that's fine, as long as it's consistent. My problem is that I'm seeing people getting all high and mighty about how their axes aren't axes because "axes suck", but swords are magically becoming spears, or they're trying to get different traits on specific gear entries. GW had a good idea with the varying power weapons, but its implementation has run into trouble because people get so fussy when a rule change causes them to have to make a change to a model, or suffer what they see as a disadvantage, even if it isn't even a straight up nerf. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3116847 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimdall Skullcrusher Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Not sure if this is the correct thread for this question, but an earlier post made me think of it. What is the proper protocol for including power weapons in your army list? And by that I mean can we just list having a Grey Hunter with Power Weapon and then when you see you are going up against terminators put in your power axe model or a power maul model vs Dark Eldar? I tend to think that seems like "cheating" but it seems to be in the rules as grey hunters just purchase a "Power Weapon" and what it is modelled as determines the final results. Just wanted to get some opinions... EDIT: I guess I'm thinking more of a tournament scenario as in friendly games it seems the lists always get tweaked around. So it might be up to the tournament organizers to explicitly state how that works... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3116851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 Not sure if this is the correct thread for this question, but an earlier post made me think of it. What is the proper protocol for including power weapons in your army list? And by that I mean can we just list having a Grey Hunter with Power Weapon and then when you see you are going up against terminators put in your power axe model or a power maul model vs Dark Eldar? I tend to think that seems like "cheating" but it seems to be in the rules as grey hunters just purchase a "Power Weapon" and what it is modelled as determines the final results. Just wanted to get some opinions... EDIT: I guess I'm thinking more of a tournament scenario as in friendly games it seems the lists always get tweaked around. So it might be up to the tournament organizers to explicitly state how that works... Personally my lists will be built with the full intention of letting my opponent know exactly what power weapons I have chosen for my models, not only visually, but also written down on the army list. Now list tailoring is nothing new for friendly games. Your buddy awlways plays a TDA list to smash power armored units, well load up on the plasma. However in the 12yrs I have been in the hobby, list tailoring for specific opponents in a tournament has always been viewed as illegal and cheating. I cannot see any TO not making it clear that power weapon types must be written on the army list and that swapping between opponents will result in an automatic DQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3116865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbrow II Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 C:SW on pg 85 has Wolf Priests armed with a Crozius so there's no need for a FAQ there. Ulrik on pg 83 is more problematic as he has an unspecified power weapon. I'll run it as a Maul i.e. not use him at all. Fwiw, my gaming group will be running Special Characters as is i.e. the Sanguinor model has a sword so will be stuck with a Power Sword so he can't be converted to carry an axe to get AP 2. I take it that you're all running Rune Priests as having Unique Force Weapons and not Forces Axes, Staves etc? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3116913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iacton Qruze Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I've never gotten my RP into combat in 6th, but I was always running it as a stave. Now that you mention it, though, it is a unique weapon. Guess it's back to S4, ap3! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3116918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 11, 2012 Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 I don't understand why people say it is not a axe!?Then what the hell em I looking at? Dante has an axe and he gains an extra attack and strenght with AP2 for it. Banshee have just the normal powersword cause agian I see a sword not an axe or a mault and why would they want one? I understand the codex says its a powerweapon but that does not make it whatever you want it to be. The model makes it what it is and if you have the option to choose between an axe or sword then you can choose or pay the points for the upgrade. WYSIWYG From your post you seem to not understand the rules for power weapons in 6th edition. C:SW on pg 85 has Wolf Priests armed with a Crozius so there's no need for a FAQ there. Ulrik on pg 83 is more problematic as he has an unspecified power weapon. I'll run it as a Maul i.e. not use him at all. Fwiw, my gaming group will be running Special Characters as is i.e. the Sanguinor model has a sword so will be stuck with a Power Sword so he can't be converted to carry an axe to get AP 2. I take it that you're all running Rune Priests as having Unique Force Weapons and not Forces Axes, Staves etc? The wolf priest wargear entry states that they are equipped with a Crozius Arcanum (power weapon). Unlike several other SM chapter FAQ, the Crozius Arcanum in our FAQ was NOT changed to a maul. So as I mentioned, the crozius will be whichever type you model on your wolf priest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3117432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Good to see GW crossed their eyes and dotted their tees with the new rules. Not like they would've play tested or had players trying to find loop holes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3117520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 11, 2012 Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 Good to see GW crossed their eyes and dotted their tees with the new rules. Not like they would've play tested or had players trying to find loop holes. Considering that there was a concerted effort to FAQ other Crozius Arcanum's, both for regular chaplains and special character, I think it was an intentional move and thus not faulty play testing or leaving loop holes. I mean they went to all the other chaplains, even Lemartes, and changed up their stuff and left ours alone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3117526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runesch Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Or simply forgot to FAQ ours, seems more logical to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3117544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 11, 2012 Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 Or simply forgot to FAQ ours, seems more logical to me. Yet they addressed Ulrik specifically and his special rules applying only to friendly Space Wolf units to only then blatantly overlook his power weapon? I am not thinking so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3117552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khine Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Or simply forgot to FAQ ours, seems more logical to me. Yet they addressed Ulrik specifically and his special rules applying only to friendly Space Wolf units to only then blatantly overlook his power weapon? I am not thinking so. ^ this is a good point. Plus most people aren't going to hassle you for your Wolfpriest with a spear for example to exemplify Saga of the hunter ... or an axe to represent a beast slaying wolf priest Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3117621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Now you've got people mounting mauls and spears on some models, and then saying that axes don't count as axes, because they don't like how those rules interact with their guys' initiative value (mainly Dante and Glaive Encarmine guys right now). Since theyre following RAW by calling them unique power weapons I really cant see the problem with this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3118460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbrow II Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Since theyre following RAW by calling them unique power weapons I really cant see the problem with this. The fact they're not unique isn't a problem? QUOTE (Runesch @ Jul 11 2012, 01:31 AM) *Or simply forgot to FAQ ours, seems more logical to me. Yet they addressed Ulrik specifically and his special rules applying only to friendly Space Wolf units to only then blatantly overlook his power weapon? I am not thinking so. QUOTE Napoleon: "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence" Wolf Priests look like they're carrying a Crozius (blunt weapon). Reading pg 61 of the BRB it says blunt weapons are Mauls. I don't have a secret decoder ring that changes them into other types of power weapons sadly. If anyone does, I'll gladly take one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3118736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Now you've got people mounting mauls and spears on some models, and then saying that axes don't count as axes, because they don't like how those rules interact with their guys' initiative value (mainly Dante and Glaive Encarmine guys right now). Since theyre following RAW by calling them unique power weapons I really cant see the problem with this. The fact they're not unique isn't a problem? QUOTE (Runesch @ Jul 11 2012, 01:31 AM) *Or simply forgot to FAQ ours, seems more logical to me. Yet they addressed Ulrik specifically and his special rules applying only to friendly Space Wolf units to only then blatantly overlook his power weapon? I am not thinking so. QUOTE Napoleon: "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence" Wolf Priests look like they're carrying a Crozius (blunt weapon). Reading pg 61 of the BRB it says blunt weapons are Mauls. I don't have a secret decoder ring that changes them into other types of power weapons sadly. If anyone does, I'll gladly take one. Do you even read the rules before injecting your opinions into a debate? Power WeaponsIf a model's wargear says it has a Power Weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of Power Weapon it has; Unusual Power WeaponsIf a Power Weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry. Of course, you focus on the word unique, right? Well here's the definition of "unique": WARGEARWeapons and equipment that can be used by more than one type of model or unit are detailed here, while equipment that is unique to a single model or unit (including wargear carried by named special characters) is often detailed in the appropriate entry in The Angelic Host section. As for Wolf Priests and Ulrik - Wolf Priests are armed with a "Crozius Arcanum (Power Weapon)", so their's is a Crozius Arcanum (of course the Space Wolves FAQ doesn't state that it must be treated as a Power Maul) but Ulrik is only armed with "Power Weapon". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3118758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbrow II Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Of course, you focus on the word unique, right? Well here's the definition of "unique": It's not the word 'unique' you're looking for. It's 'unique close combat rules' you want. What 'unique close combat rules' do Glaive Encarmines have? Two-handed? No, that's a special rule on pg 43. Master-Crafted? No, that's a special rule on pg 39. So there's two special rules, but there are no further special rules there? Cool. So it's a Power weapon that is either a Sword, Axe, Maul or Lance. Page 61 tells you to look at the model. Most of those models are swords and axes. So, what is unique about them? They're unique to the BA? Whoop-de-doo. Unique and unique close combat rules are two different things. Do they make opponents re-roll successful Invul saves? Do they always wound Daemons on a 2+ and stop psychic powers on a 4+ within 24"? Can it be used as 2 different types of weapon in the same round of combat? If the answers to the above and questions that have no rule explaining them in the BRB are no, then you probably don't have a unique weapon. Ulrik is only armed with "Power Weapon". Cool. Agreed. A Power Weapon. That looks like...a Crozius? You see, these things aren't so hard when you learn to English. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256123-ulrik-and-our-other-wolf-priests/#findComment-3118792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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