Muskie Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 One thing that is noticeable in Forgeworld Vehicle update and in other FAQs is the new Daemon rule. Models with "Daemon" get a 5+ invulnerable save and cause 'Fear'. There are several Forgeworld vehicles and possibly/probably non-Forgeworld vehicles with the Daemon rule, so do they get a 5+ invulnerable save and cause Fear? Consider the Blood Slaughter, it is basically a Chaos Defiler with better armor and no big (any) guns. It has a bunch of rules that make it slightly crazy and run forward but it also now has the Daemon rule, so does a Blood Slaughter have a 5+ invulnerable save and cause Fear? Considering how similar it is to a Defiler and whatever the other model based on that kit is called in the Demon codex, do they get 5+ invulnerable saves? I think most everything "Daemon" will be removed from the Chaos Space Marine codex and left in the Daemon codex and become allies. Lesser deamons and generic greater daemons and maybe even Daemon Princes could be removed from CSM codex, but I can't see them removing Defilers or any of the fancy Forgeworld kits. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256124-daemon-vehicles/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Wondering about that myself, as someone had mentioned that those FW models with Daemonic Possession were considered to have the Daemon USR, which caused me to ask if that might apply to our vehicles and daemon engines that can purchase it via our codex would get those benefits as well as the listed penalties (BS-3, and extra damage or whatever it is that Grey Knights do to those with the Daemon USR. Personally I think it would be fitting. But I have to say I am hoping they don't remove those units/models with the Daemon USR from us in the new 'dex, as they are part and parcel to some of our fluff and history, although with the addition of daemons as allies I could see them do it. Just kinda sucks to have to take an allied HQ when all you want to really add is a unit our two of fodder troops or sacrificial fast attack. At least they will be full strength daemons and not the half wit ones in our 'dex now though.... And I also think I remember noticing that in the FAQ our DP's are not given the Daemon USR? (Need to check that again..) Which is odd for a daemon... ~BtW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256124-daemon-vehicles/#findComment-3116188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskie Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 Soul Grinders have Daemon but in the codex it says for them that just mean they teleport onto the battlefield. That was pre-6th pre-FAQ. In the FAQ it just says Soul Grinders gain Fear. Defilers do not appear to be "Daemon" but like I said originally all the Forgeworld Daemon Vehicles have no FAQ saying they don't get Fear and Invulnerable saves. All the Daemon Forgeworld vehicles have BS 3. I was just reading through the rules anew. I also found the "Pile In" rules poorly written, you Pile In before any blows are struck right? But that isn't clear in their description. I also think I won't be using my Nurgle Daemons much, I'm not a fan of no guns and Slow and Purposeful. I think I like Tzeentch and Slaneesh daemons better especially their Troops. Soul Grinders seem tougher than Defilers but their random arrival is uninspiring. I may no use allies on a regular basis, but I plan to try Daemons, IG, and Orks out eventually, if for nothing else than variety of painting and modeling. I've always wanted barrage weapons and the IG have them. I also want Snipers. So needless to say Cultists with Sniper Rilfes and mortars would great. ;-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256124-daemon-vehicles/#findComment-3116193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I brought this up in the FAQ thread. It seems to me that anything that is actually a daemon in some way or another should get the daemon USR. Defilers, possessed vehicles, Obliterators, etc. That's how I intend to play it until it's addressed specifically by GW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256124-daemon-vehicles/#findComment-3116198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Muskie, slow and purposeful isn't as crippling now- basically, you can't run or chase fleeing foes (a non-issue against MEQ). None of that 'always in difficult terrain' nonsense. I think I shall be using quite a few pestilent daemons. As for vehicles and daemons, I noticed that Blight Drones seemed to have similar issues. Just another symptom of GW not having their crap together. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256124-daemon-vehicles/#findComment-3116740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Don't forget that you can't overwatch when you are SnP, which cripples TS and Oblits a bit... :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256124-daemon-vehicles/#findComment-3116743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskie Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 I think being able to move and being able to shoot are pretty crucial to success on a modern battlefield which is what 40K represents in a perverse kinda a way. Plaguebarers can not shoot at all and their ability to move is restricted. Thus given all the possible troop choices and all the possible allied troop choices in the game I want to choose Plaguebarers because? In the olden days they had psychic powers and I in WFB blocks of troops can be boosted by banners and having a herald with them at least, but Plaguebearers glory days are in the past. I'm tired of handicapping myself. I still won't be using special characters or blatantly dubious rules interpretations, but I've moved away from playing all Nurgle, all the time. I did that for over a decade. I want to come up with some new tactics, paint some different models. Blight Drone could very well cause fear and have an invulnerable save but the Defiler and other demonically possessed vehicles clearly don't, having reviewed the rules carefully. I don't own a Blight Drone model and may never buy one. I have some existing Forgeworld models to paint before I splurge on more. I think the current Chaos Codex is a bit of a lame duck with the rumors of it being replaced soon. The fact Chaos didn't get a flyer supports this. The flying mecha-dragon could be a flying monstrous creature for instance. Forgeworld has Chaos Flyers and that is great. I still think the Chaos Codex is fine, I've always used it. I think you can definitely have fun playing the game with it. However a portion of the 40K players especially online are WAAC very much in the vernacular of hip hop IMHO. If your goal is to win at all costs, including dubious rules interpretations, blatantly overusing undercosted units, and generally being slimy. I don't particularly want to play you, nor to I want to travel 100s of Kms and pay money to play you. I'd like to see more of a backlash against dubious individuals, public shaming and shunning perhaps. These people don't seem to have much use for the Chaos Codex right now and that is fine by me. The grass is not always greener on the other side. The rules just changed and if there is a new Chaos Codex will be changing again. Who you play with/against has a big impact on whether you enjoy the game. Also what mission and battlefield is used can affect the game a lot. Forcing or strongly encouraging people to paint and convert their own army also is a positive move towards a more sensible and enjoyable hobby IMHO. I think there is a trend towards arms escalation more and more in Warhammer 40,000. 6th Edition and two rules in particular allies and 2nd FOC are further encouraging this. Both of these rules are good for GW as the stimulate demand and I think could be fun. The 2nd FOC chart I'm not crazy over as it is hard enough to find time and space to game, requiring a bigger table, a bigger army, more terrain, more painting, more converting, more money... There are other hobbies out there, other things I enjoy spending time and money on. My army is a bit like Jervis's grey spacemarines. The rules change but if you always use the same collection of figs regardless of rules it is insightful. People who jump from army to army, proxy to proxy, counts-as to counts-as have a different perspective on the game. I think they've tanked some of the joy out of it for themselves and definitely for others. I think the new version of the game is good on the whole. I think it will encourage some new tactics, some new army selection, and allies may help balance the game some at the most competitive tournaments. Or you can choose to see it as the rich get richer, but I'm sure a truly sneaky git is coming up with a way to beat Dragowing or whatever is the most feared special character build on the block. I've predicted the new Chaos Codex will be elite or at least amped up to attract new converts and flavour of the month players, but looking at the rules as written and some of the potential allied codices, I'll either not going to use any allies just because I think that is kinda a statement now or will choose something that can move and shoot, ie any thing but Plaguebarers. Even some Ork Boyz in a trukk seems more appealing that randomly arriving slow dudes with no guns. Nurglings are even worse, they can neither claim nor deny mission objectives! And as for beasts, well I've yet to try them in 6th Edition of 40K, I've used them under many different GW rulesets and they are basically Chaos Spawn and I and others have enunciated how ineffective they are on the table top. I didn't consider any of the special character or many of the wargear/rewards much but if I was picking demon allies today, I'd like almost anything over Nurgle. Flamers and Horrors can shoot. Plenty of demons can move quickly. Khorne and Slaneesh troops have greater armor penetration capabilities, but jump infantry with assault weapons, Flamers seem cool, I don't know how cost effective they are, but there is nothing in the Chaos Codex that can move and shoot that much. This just in, moving and shooting is good. ;-) Plaguebearers and Demon allies will be more better if the FAQ says they can use CSM icons as homing beacons thus eliminating mishaps and encouraging synergy between the two 'chaos' armies. I don't know if GW will bother stating this as I think it should be stated one way or the other in the new Chaos Codex. I think "demons" may be removed from Codex Chaos Space Marines and become favoured allies, I mean battle brothers. I think it will clearly state in White Dwarf or an FAQ or ultimately the new Chaos Codex whether Chaos Space Marines can summon demons, perhaps that is the use for cultists? Maybe they can be sacrificed or are in some way necessary to summoning demons. I prefer to not get to worried or upset. I keep reading too much online. Getting sucked into discussions. I've made a few notes on what I want to do, assuming things like Chaos Chosen don't change too much. I'm trying to be flexiable and keep an open mind. I just don't see Defilers or Demonically possessed rhinos causing Fear right now, but I can totally see Forgeworld release models that do. GW seems to state the Soul Grinder causes Fear but neglects to include the invulnerable save so currently I wouldn't count on having one... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256124-daemon-vehicles/#findComment-3117152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Muskie your posts are getting longer and longer..... I am not a WAAC player but I like to know the rules and know how to win if I really wanted to. I think the last time I played an actual game was almost a year ago now but I still love to know exactly how the game works and how to win. That being said I do use special characters sometimes. Special characters don't have to be exactly who they say they are. Counts as is a perfectly good way to represent your own heroes, just using anothers rules. The whole possessed/fear/invulnerable thing is something that will either have to be up to each individual game or a FAQ (if they ever post one for it). Honestly I don't see how a Soul Grinder could get it yet the Defilers can't, just doesn't make much sense to me... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256124-daemon-vehicles/#findComment-3117792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Honestly I don't see how a Soul Grinder could get it yet the Defilers can't Not to sound like an ass... But maybe the whole having a different ruleset plays into it? You know, different names, different armour values, different weapons, different ranges on the weapons, different upgrades? TDA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256124-daemon-vehicles/#findComment-3117839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Except they're hardly even different. The only difference is the Soul Grinder is from C:D and the Defiler is from C:CSM. Essentially same weaponry (just goes by different names) and they're both daemons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256124-daemon-vehicles/#findComment-3117857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskie Posted July 11, 2012 Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 Soul Grinders have better armor whereas I guess Defilers have better guns. Surely if you're a WAAC guy you play RAW? As written right now Soul Grinders are "Daemon" but don't appear to have an invulnerable save, they do cause Fear. Defilers are clearly not "Daemon". Forgeworld makes many vehicles which are "Daemon" but does not specifically state they do not cause Fear nor removes the Invulnerable save they should gain by having the Daemon USR so perhaps it is correct or at least permissible to roll a 5+ save against every hit directed at them. I get suckered in to these lengthy discussions, but my position rarely changes. Too many people have too high opinion of themselves and on their 'rightness'. I would like clarity around the rules and with the new edition and the barrage of FAQs you'd think they would have caught this one. Perhaps in the new Chaos Space Marine Codex it is all cleared up and the easiest way to do that is to make everything "Daemon" an ally. That's how I would do it, why have two sets of rules for Daemon Princes? Also rhinos, razorbacks, predators, and whirlwinds all look similar but have very different rules. Just because they are based on the same plastic kit doesn't mean their rules have to be the same. Look at the front of those four tanks, which one has the thicker looking armor? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256124-daemon-vehicles/#findComment-3117969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Yes but those same said predators/rhinos/whirlwinds/razorbacks aren't possessed by a daemon. Difference between the Defiler and Soul Grinder is the defiler simply has a daemon piloting it whereas the soul grinder is actually part machine-part daemon. I guess that's where they draw the line. Still though a giant spider-like daemon engine racing towards you, you're not going to feel a tingle of fear? I'm not a WAAC guy but I usually do play RAW. It's GW though, the rules are never going to be crystal clear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256124-daemon-vehicles/#findComment-3118043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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