Pariah Mk.231 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 With the inclusion now of Precision Shots, it would seem our Icons are now at much greater risk of being picked off by trigger happy characters and unit leaders than they previously were, but I think I've found a way to give them a little extra protection. Since our Aspiring Champions now also count as characters and can thus benefit from the "Look out, sir!" rules, it might be worth giving them the duel role of leading the squad and carrying the icon. By the wording, any model in a squad can carry the icon, not just the basic squad members. Giving it to the champion means he gets a 4+ save from any lucky shots that come his way, something a regular marine carrying an icon would get. It also means you can almost guarentee the icon's safety in melee as the champion can simply refuse a challenge and jump out of harms way, denying his unit his leadership and attacks, but allowing them to keep the benefit of their icon. I realise this means the choice of models to target with precision shots now drops from a potential 4 models (champion, bearer, special and heavy) to 3 and increases the risk of losing both your champion and icon to a single shot, but it might be something to consider. When you have the points to properly kit out your champion as a killer it may become a bit too much of a risk to have a lucky shot take him, his gear and the icon out, or mean you don't get to use him in melee by constantly jumping him to the back of the unit, wasting the points spent on tooling him up, but if you're strapped for points and want to provide your squads with their boosts for as long as possible, it might be worth it to take a naked champion and hand him the units icon for the day. So, possible? Clever? Or so retarded I should go slam my head in a door as punishment? Of course, this probably won't matter come the new codex, but it might help us until then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratil Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I'd say it was a good idea, if hopefully only for a few weeks, the less 'important' models you have the easier it is to keep them away from the front line as well for normal shooting casualties and getting Look Out Sir on Icons is very useful with all the snipers, characters, beam powers and Doom Scythes flying around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda_ Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Don't forget snipers ! Don't forget focussed witchfire ! note 1 : This have a better chance to target specific models (~1/4 rather than 1/6) note 2 : TS might be get more bonus than we are thougth. Wounds allocations are going to be nasty for us, especially poors classic CSM. With 4 specials models (half the unit strenght), manoeuvrable armies will be able to shoot from the worst angle (the one with less sponges) easily. Our classic CSM unit consisted of 1 Undivided standard, 2 meltas, and a PF should reflect this well. They need to close the gap which in turns allow them to shoot from the back. I think, we should create a tactical discussion on formations. While I don't plan on discussing it now, I've got a few examples handy: This basic is weak on the sides, and weaker from the back. b b b b b m m A S b Those provide better defences to fire, but a charge may let more guys behind b b b b b b b m A b or b m m b b m S b A S And this doesn't cover precision shots (btw, without my rulebook, I _think_ Look Out Sir protects against Precision shots and focussed witchfire). We agree completely. 4 specials models are going to have a hard time in protection (take that SW). Combining the aspiring champion and the icon bearer hits 2 birds with a stone. We need a discussion on Aspiring champions equipment. And challenge's mechanics are going to affect this too ! - AC with I5: They hit before any sergeant, it could be a great deal to kit them to challenge (PW, and Icon to Slaanesh) - AC with I4: That's difficult to give the AC some close combat equipment as he better refuse challenges. I'm eager to test 1 dLC JP Lord, (2 Flamer Raptor, 1 dLC Aspiring Slaanesh Raptor Champion, x Raptor) unit. This may get some PP, and/or a Sorceror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Mk.231 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 Well, snipers go without saying, but unless they also roll a 6 to wound to get a rending shot, our icons still get their armour saves, I was more concerned about plasma pistols and plasma/melta combi weapons. A precision shot from one of those guarentees the death of our icons unless the unit is in cover. At least with the "Look out, sir!" roll, a champion has a 50/50 chance of coming out on top. I run my Chaos Marine squads with twin plasma, so closing the distance to use melta or flame didn't really register into my own concerns, but it's sure to cause problems for a fair few of us. I think we might need to determine who carries the icon based on the unit's role. A squad decked out with either twin plasma or plasma and a heavy weapon is more likely to sit back and fire from a stationary position, or move around outside 12" to avoid enemy assualts. In this set up, the champion's usefulness is limited as he's unlikely to see much combat, so he makes a better choice for icon duty. A squad geared towards a close range/assualt role gives a champion more oppurtunity to make with the slaughter, meaning you don't want that icon to make him an even juicier target and someone else should have that duty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Ouch! Had not even thought about that at all. That would mean some serious remodeling for me. On the plus side I only use Chaos Glory and Personal Icons at the moment, but with the Allies changes I could drop the personal icons, since I won't need to worry about having to have it for daemons arriving from the warp now. I hope the new codex addresses this, but I'm thinking it may not.... Gonna have to do some thinking about it win I'm more awake. ~BtW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Mk.231 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 Ouch! Had not even thought about that at all. That would mean some serious remodeling for me. On the plus side I only use Chaos Glory and Personal Icons at the moment, but with the Allies changes I could drop the personal icons, since I won't need to worry about having to have it for daemons arriving from the warp now. I hope the new codex addresses this, but I'm thinking it may not.... Gonna have to do some thinking about it win I'm more awake. ~BtW Yeah, I only take glory too, but not so much for summoning as for precision termie/oblit teleporting and to keep my units from chickening out. As for remodeling, for me it's just pulling off a few arms or better yet just making a few new 2-in-1 champions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Willy Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 To be honest I don't think you need to worry, not many people will think kill icon, lose bonus, icons being very specific to CSM and Daemons means not everyone thinks to kill the Icons since they don't see it as a priority. I've found everyones trying to kill my champ and specials with precisions, I say leave as is, yes important but duel plas/melta or fist is hella scary in the eyes of other armies compared to an Icon they don't consider important. besides I've found our termies to now be beast, just cause you can take less then 200 points worth and it doesn't compromise model count as much since it's such a low cost, and now harder to kill so taking them really helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Ouch! Had not even thought about that at all. That would mean some serious remodeling for me. On the plus side I only use Chaos Glory and Personal Icons at the moment, but with the Allies changes I could drop the personal icons, since I won't need to worry about having to have it for daemons arriving from the warp now. I hope the new codex addresses this, but I'm thinking it may not.... Gonna have to do some thinking about it win I'm more awake. ~BtW Yeah, I only take glory too, but not so much for summoning as for precision termie/oblit teleporting and to keep my units from chickening out. As for remodeling, for me it's just pulling off a few arms or better yet just making a few new 2-in-1 champions. Yeah, was just looking at the codex and had forgotten about the termies/oblits using it as I rarely remember to use it for that *face palm*. It looks like it would have a more serious effect on our Elites and Fast Attack units (forex. Bikers and Termies) as the troop choices include bonus from the marks already without the icons. But for someone with a heavily themed force, including those elite and fast attack choices losing them could hurt a bit, or not, depending on the icon. Only other armies I can think of that could be affected by this, as they use a standard/icon more frequently, are Space Wolves or Imperial Guard. The Wolves taking a wolf standard with their grey hunters is a staple choice to get those rerolls in assault once per game, and IG commands , both company and platoon, can have standards to add to close combat results (+1) and also to re-roll morale and pinning tests ( regimental standard in company command). I know Orks use bosspoles, but those are on the Nobz so no big deal there. BT have their sacred standards, Chapter banners and Fighting company banners but I rarely see them fielded. Same with vanilla marines. We are the only army with really any number of icons/banners that could possibly have a sizeable effect when they are lost. So maybe I'll be wrong and it will change. On a side note, I always thought it kind of lame that CSM's would have so many 'poles' carried into battle when they could just as easily mark the whole squads armour or something along those lines to signify their allegiances and affiliations, without making themselves a target or hindering themselves in combat (ala the sun/star motif around one of the helmet lenses for the Serrated Sun chapter of the Word Bearers during the heresy). Now on a command squad or honour guard (whether real or assigned...forex, my possessed being my "honour guard" for my Dark Apostle ) carrying a chapter, legion, or host banner it makes makes more sense. Anyhow, just my thoughts, valid or invalid as they may be... ~BtW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I don't really see the point of playing our codex atm. I mean, the gavdex is a 3th ed codex (being nothing more than a copycat of the 3rd ed Jervis dex) and it's not meant to be played in 6th as we are hit by all the drawbacks without having a single advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Willy Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Not really just gotta rethink your lists. You can either play the same old boring Lash Prince list or play a new list that requires you to think rather then rush the board like a GK, BA or SW player. Don't be sad either, soon we'll have a really good dex which, with kelly(fingers crossed) writing it means we won't be like GK, were every farmer and his mum are carrying Draigowings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I don't really see the point of playing our codex atm. I mean, the gavdex is a 3th ed codex (being nothing more than a copycat of the 3rd ed Jervis dex) and it's not meant to be played in 6th as we are hit by all the drawbacks without having a single advantage. *snort* The Erratas/Amendments could have covered most of those, and we still are Marines. It's not like we're Tau here. And Vengeance should be coming soon. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I don't really see the point of playing our codex atm. I mean, the gavdex is a 3th ed codex (being nothing more than a copycat of the 3rd ed Jervis dex) and it's not meant to be played in 6th as we are hit by all the drawbacks without having a single advantage. Could always try a few games using the 3.5 ed with 6th to see how it goes, but honestly hope the end of July/early August rumours on our new 'dex are true... With the supposed inclusion of some heretics/traitor guard being in the starter set due out in September it would make sense, but then again this is GW. I did find a good deal on some of the FW Renegade Enforcer torso sets (20 of them) to convert into TG forces that I picked up. Excited about the conversion possibilities there. ;) ~BtW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Makes sense, 3.5 is a really modern codex, very 5th ed, I'd say, without being a "training wheels codex" like the GK one. I'd give it a try, I guess. On the next codex, I don't think we'll get GW's attention anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 This sounds like a good idea. Unfortunately for me, it would require conversion work, and I'm not doing any conversions for game effect reasons until the new book is out. As for the current book being a copy of the jervis book... It doesn't even meet that standard.. The Jervis book still had HQ choice affecting unit availability for greater personalization of your army, and chapter approved added daemonic gifts for princes, chaos cultists, and cult terminators. Even if you don't count the legion rules added later, even without defilers - which have been one of my favorite units since their introduction, I would still trade the current book for the Jervis one in a heartbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskie Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I don't have a problem with this for two reasons: 1) The rules are going to change soon for Chaos Space Marines, maybe Icons will be a thing of a past. 2) Snipers are a very real battlefield problem that has existed since at least WW1. 40K players too often base their tactics/strategy on exploiting loop holes and not enough on the underlying reality of war. I see battle reports online with two little terrain and a 'strategy' that consists of pushing their over powered special character led wonder squad forward as fast as possible. Maybe some of these players need to read the uplifting Imperial primer and consider life in a flack jacket... Actually using cover and anticipating enemy movement may become valuable game winning skills again rather than relying on the most favourable special rules you can find. Maybe you'll have to win games with bog standard grunts instead of treating them as a requirement that you're forced to field so you can get the wonder weapon/champion... It would be nice if Chaos Space Marines or even cultists could get sniper rifles or the 'Sniper' rule. Squad leaders with combi-weapons look to be much more appealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I don't really see the point of playing our codex atm. I mean, the gavdex is a 3th ed codex (being nothing more than a copycat of the 3rd ed Jervis dex) and it's not meant to be played in 6th as we are hit by all the drawbacks without having a single advantage. Just because a dex is old doesn't mean it is terrible. It might work strangely, but that doesn't mean it's weak (a la Black Templars in 5th). Anyway, we do have a few advantages, and they are the Daemon Princes. Ours might not be Flying MCs, but I have had great success using them as the flying jump monsters they were in 5th. S6 T6 eternal warriors are very scary. They are also cheap and cheerful, compared to their C: Daemons counterparts. But yeah, icons suck. Always have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 It's boring, yes, but we got some interesting things in it for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HJL Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I don't really see the point of playing our codex atm. A fun game of 40k springs to mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I think I would have to agree with King Willy. Icons are going to rank fairly low on the list of priorities to remove assuming you're not using Nurgle or Tzeentch so I wouldn't bother trying to protect them that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I don't really see the point of playing our codex atm. A fun game of 40k springs to mind? Fun gavdex ? Oxymoron, right ? We don't even have AA or flying stuff. There's simply big holes that makes Chaos unable to counter some units/builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 you guys forgeting one thing . rhino and range sniping is back in style and even easier then in 4th ed where you had to know the ranges of stuff . it doesnt matter where you put the icon If someone has an army that can "snipe" it then he will. Not to mention all the armies which will be runing mass character units just to spam shoting precision shots. A paladin unit has 4 psycannons thats 16 shots per turn thats on avarge 3 precision wounds from 30" away. you dont want to lose your champ and the icon ah and yeah , playing the chaos dex right now realy doesnt make much sense. one can as well buy a GK or SW dex play counts as and have more fun . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Good point with pallies jeske. Their "sniping" psycannons are going to be ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratil Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Pallies will be annoying as hell, in some ways I don't think you should take them into consideration, as Jeske says if that unit wants to snipe your models it can, no matter where you put the icons, but at least the sarge gets a save and I think most people will assign wounds to normal dudes with special weapons/abilities (Icons, Lone Wolves etc.) before the sarge to have a greater chance of killing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Icons and marks will probably change completely in a matter of months, I wouldn't bother reconverting anything unless you're magnetising stuff anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Willy Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I don't really think so, yeah losing an Icon sucks from a gamer standpoint but in the narrative it makes sense, the god ain't gonna be happy if his fancy banner is dropped. Marks work fine as is so no reason to change how they work other then what there effect is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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