Bladestorm and Overwatch

[pingo]

I'm hoping this has a simple answer.

 

If Dire Avengers Bladestorm in their shooting phase, do they get extra shots if they choose to fire overwatch when assaulted during the assault phase of the next player turn?

[ShinyRhino]

I don't think they can fire at all in Overwatch after Bladestorming in the previous turn.

[pingo]

I don't own the codex, but doesn't it say something like they 'can fire one extra shot until their next shooting phase, then they cannot fire at all'?

[dswanick]

I don't own the codex, but doesn't it say something like they 'can fire one extra shot until their next shooting phase, then they cannot fire at all'?

Bladestorm: The Dire Avengers empty their weapons in a devastating hurricane of bladed discs. The Exarch and his squad may choose to add one to the number of shots they each fire with their shuriken weapons that turn. If they do so they may not fire in the subsequent shooting phase as they reload.

[pingo]

So, from that I infer that Dire Avengers simply Overwatch with their regular number of shots.

 

Cool: thanks. Counter-intuitive, but thanks!

 

EDIT: mistyped 'bladestorm' instead of 'overwatch'.

[Aidoneus]

"Turn" means player turn, unless otherwise specified, so if you get charged on the opponent's turn, you can fire as normal. You can even bladestorm as part of overwatch after bladestorming in your own turn, with no ill effect, since you already sacrificed the squad's shooting in your next shooting phase.

[pingo]

You can even bladestorm as part of overwatch after bladestorming in your own turn, with no ill effect, since you already sacrificed the squad's shooting in your next shooting phase.

 

No, from the above you can only add one extra shot during your own (player) turn.

[Legatus]

I'ma insist on RAI on this one. The rules for 'Bladestorm' were written at a time when the only possible way to fire the unit's weapons was their own shooting phase. Thus when the rule describes that "the shots fired in this turn are increased by one", that was meant as "the shots fired in this phase", and when the rule describes that "in the subsequent shooting phase the unit cannot shoot at all", that was meant as "the unit cannot fire until the turn after the next one".

 

Yes, that is not what the 4th Edition Eldar Codex says. I know. But to take its "they cannot shoot in the subsequent shooting phase, because they are reloading" and interpret that as them being perfectly able to fire in all the intermediate assault phases before the next shooting phase they would actually be allowed to fire their weapons again is just plainly wrong.

 

I would agree that the unit can use 'Bladestorm' during overwatch, which would be an adequate translation of their 4th Edition rules into 6th Edition. But only if they had it "ready", and not used already in this or the last turn.

[dswanick]

I dunno - it says you add one to the number of shots. As Shuriken Catapults are Assault 2 weapons I would think that that would make them Assault 3 for the turn in which you Bladestorm. Thus 3 shots per in your Shooting phase or 3 shots per in your opponents Assault phase for Overwatch.

[Gentlemanloser]

Both! :lol:

[Aidoneus]

I totally understand wanting to play by what you consider to be RAI with your own gaming group. However, this is the official rules section, and so all we have is what GW has handed down to us. In this case, it says that bladestorm denies you the ability to shoot "in the subsequent shooting phase." If I really wanted to be a :lol: about it I would say that the "subsequent" shooting phase is your opponent's, and so Bladestorm denies you no shots at all. However, even if you don't go that far, it is certainly clear that the wording of Bladestorm does not deny you any shots during your opponent's assault phase.

 

Again, GW could have made this very clear by saying "Cannot shoot again until after their next shooting phase." Just like they could have said "Snap shots only hit on a 6." But they didn't. So we go with what they did write, and that lets Dire Avengers always fire overwatch, and in fact lets them Bladestorm in overwatch after Bladestorming in their shooting phase, with no additional drawbacks.

[thade]

I'ma insist on RAI on this one.

PIGS FLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Also, I very much agree with Legatus. haha

[Gentlemanloser]

I really don't want to bash GW, but they could have produced muhc more in depth FAQs for 6th's release.

 

I was shocked when I saw how, minimalist, they were...

[Legatus]

I totally understand wanting to play by what you consider to be RAI with your own gaming group. However, this is the official rules section, and so all we have is what GW has handed down to us.

There is arguing what the rules explicitely say, and there is arguing how a rule is meant to be played. They are two different kind of discussions, and I think they both have merit.

 

I am in a position where I am aware of the last four editions of rules and Codices GW has "handed down to us" (2nd through 5th, not so big on 1st), so I cannot bring myself to ignore when rules such as those from a 4th Edition Codex were written in an entirely different core rule context. I know I cannot expect other players to dig up a set of 4th Edition rules and learn about teh context those rules were originally written in, but I can offer that perspective in a forum.

 

You could assume that "since GW has not clarified it in an FaQ, the 4th Edition rule is meant to be applied exactly as written back then in the current 6th Edition". I, however, assume that GW cannot always be on top of things, and that I therefor have to interpret how a 4th Edition rule would work with the changes of 6th Edition.

[pingo]

So we go with what they did write, and that lets Dire Avengers always fire overwatch, and in fact lets them Bladestorm in overwatch after Bladestorming in their shooting phase, with no additional drawbacks.

 

Sorry, I have to pick up on this point again. RAW does not let then bladestorm on overwatch. However, it does not prevent them shooting with their normal number of shots. They can only add a shot in their own player turn.

 

Anyway: Legatus is totally right. This is a codex written under a different set of parameters and I think most people would play it how we all imagine it should be. I just wanted to explore RAW as if there is an answer there then it is not only interesting but something players can always agree on without resorting to a dice-off.

[Aidoneus]

So we go with what they did write, and that lets Dire Avengers always fire overwatch, and in fact lets them Bladestorm in overwatch after Bladestorming in their shooting phase, with no additional drawbacks.

Sorry, I have to pick up on this point again. RAW does not let then bladestorm on overwatch. However, it does not prevent them shooting with their normal number of shots. They can only add a shot in their own player turn.

 

Bladestorm: The Dire Avengers empty their weapons in a devastating hurricane of bladed discs. The Exarch and his squad may choose to add one to the number of shots they each fire with their shuriken weapons that turn. If they do so they may not fire in the subsequent shooting phase as they reload.

 

Sorry, but what prevents them from Bladestorming on Overwatch? It says "that turn." It never says you can only do it on your own turn. Unless the Bladestorm has been mis-quoted. I don't have the codex, so I'm just going by what was quoted here.

[pingo]

So we go with what they did write, and that lets Dire Avengers always fire overwatch, and in fact lets them Bladestorm in overwatch after Bladestorming in their shooting phase, with no additional drawbacks.

Sorry, I have to pick up on this point again. RAW does not let then bladestorm on overwatch. However, it does not prevent them shooting with their normal number of shots. They can only add a shot in their own player turn.

 

Bladestorm: The Dire Avengers empty their weapons in a devastating hurricane of bladed discs. The Exarch and his squad may choose to add one to the number of shots they each fire with their shuriken weapons that turn. If they do so they may not fire in the subsequent shooting phase as they reload.

 

Sorry, but what prevents them from Bladestorming on Overwatch? It says "that turn." It never says you can only do it on your own turn. Unless the Bladestorm has been mis-quoted. I don't have the codex, so I'm just going by what was quoted here.

 

'Turn' refers to 'player turn' unless otherwise stated. You bladestorm in your (player) turn. You overwatch during the opponent's (player) turn, thus after the bladestorm effect has ended.

[thade]

We have this conversation once every three to five months, it seems. Perhaps because we have new people coming in who want to cut their chops in here. RAI vs RAW. We even had a thread specifically about it on here some time back.

 

People come to the OR board for two reasons: they come here both to understand the rules so that they can play the game as fairly as possible, and they also come here to see advice on how to actually play the game when RAW falls short (as it so often does). RAI has just as much place on the OR board as RAW. Frankly, we need it. So, save your efforts on trying to denounce or decry RAI like it has no place here. We have already established - many times - that it does. Welcome to the OR board. :)

 

The reason your space elves can't fire until their next shooting phase is that they're reloading; you may not like it, but that's not just RAI...that's actually a written rule. There's not really much to interpret there. They're reloading. Why can't they fire during Overwatch? They're reloading. Would it be nicer to have an FAQ? Yes. Is it necessary? No, because we know they're reloading. Do we need a hard and fast definition for reloading? No more than we need hard and fast definitions for "the", "bullets", or "dice".

[Aidoneus]

Bladestorm: The Dire Avengers empty their weapons in a devastating hurricane of bladed discs. The Exarch and his squad may choose to add one to the number of shots they each fire with their shuriken weapons that turn. If they do so they may not fire in the subsequent shooting phase as they reload.

 

'Turn' refers to 'player turn' unless otherwise stated. You bladestorm in your (player) turn. You overwatch during the opponent's (player) turn, thus after the bladestorm effect has ended.

It doesn't say "your" turn. It says "that" turn. It can refer to any player turn; it just means the current player turn. Thus, when you shoot on your opponent's turn, the text of the rule refers to "that" turn, meaning the current enemy turn.

[thade]

It's true, that turn typically means player turn. But come the next player turn, they're still reloading...you know, they're doing that until after their following Shooting phase. You left the "reloading" part out, I see.

[dswanick]

It's true, that turn typically means player turn. But come the next player turn, they're still reloading...you know, they're doing that until after their following Shooting phase. You left the "reloading" part out, I see.

But thade, even if you take "that turn" as "player turn" and want the reloading to take until the owning players next shooting phase - it still allows for a Bladestorm use in your opponent's turn on an Overwatch, so long as you didn't Bladestorm during your last normal shooting phase.

[bystrom]

Checked the quote, it corresponds to what I have as well.

 

RAI: reloading, hence no.

 

RAW: What Aidoneus is saying. They add shots that turn. They only reload on the subsequent shooting phase. Which is also a strange way of answering Thade about reloading; they obviously have shots left, but choose to reload only during their subsequent shooting phase; hence they can still shoot and bladestorm when charged ;) At least till GW FAQs this. Hadn't thought about subsequent shooting phase; it does seem to actually be your opponent's shooting phase, thus only hindering you from bladestorming in your turn if you use it in Overwatch... :)

[Feste]

Pingo: The problem with not allowing them Bladestorm in both their own and in Overwatch is that nowhere does it say they can only use it once a game turn, nor does it say that they can only use it in their shooting phase. The only restriction resulting from using Bladestorm is that they can't fire in the subsequent shooting phase. Therefore a strict interpretation would probably allow them to do both.

 

Thade: Saying that they're reloading therefore cannot fire isn't the only answer to this, because we're never told when they stop firing. In fact all we're told about this is that they reload in their next shooting phase, there's nothing about them reloading opponents phase. Maybe in 5th they kicked back and drank elf-gin coz they had nothing better to do. Well now they do.

 

From another aspect of RAI, it's obvious that GW are trying to boost defensive fire. Allowing a standard fire rate in Overwatch goes along with this quite nicely, it's a middle point between Bladestorm in both player turns and Bladestorm in only one.

[thade]

But thade, even if you take "that turn" as "player turn" and want the reloading to take until the owning players next shooting phase - it still allows for a Bladestorm use in your opponent's turn on an Overwatch, so long as you didn't Bladestorm during your last normal shooting phase.

Wait, what? Either I misunderstand you entirely...or this is cheeky, cheeky rules lawyering. Let's see.

 

Why would they say "You can't fire in the next shooting phase" if they were referring to your opponent's shooting phase? There's no reason to point that out as being able to shoot during your opponent's shooting phase would itself be a special exception, right? So, the reason they're saying "can't fire in the next shooting phase" MUST refer to YOUR next shooting phase. Otherwise, why would they say it at all? "That much is so obvious, one would be daft to not realize it," is what they probably thought to themselves.

 

With me so far?

 

Now, they go so far as to give us a reason why they can't fire even in their next Shooting Phase (when they'd normally be allowed to fire)...it's because they're "reloading". This is a term that has no hard-and-fast definition in game terms until this very moment...when it's implicitly defined as a state which prevents you from shooting in your following shooting phase. That's super-pedantic, and unnecessary, because - well - it's obvious you can't fire when you're "reloading", they might think.

 

So what I fear I'm seeing here is this: people want to try and flip the definition of the term "turn" (which is somewhat defined) such that they can fire while reloading. This is cheeky, cheeky rules lawyering.

 

They can't fire, because they're reloading. This persists until at least after their own next Shooting phase because that's what it says. Otherwise, Bladestorm actually has no detriment to it.

 

Of course, if you hadn't Bladestormed during your last Shooting Phase, you're not "reloading", so it's a non-issue. Perhaps the real question is "Can you bladestorm during Overwatch?" which would be kind of awesome (perhaps too awesome) and really makes it painfully obvious that some of these codecies were written before they had Sixth on the mind. It's probably not so bad, right? You Bladestorm during Overwatch (assuming it's allowed) then can't fire in your normal turn...but you did just get assaulted so that's a non-issue, right? Probably not so bad.

[dswanick]

Of course, if you hadn't Bladestormed during your last Shooting Phase, you're not "reloading", so it's a non-issue. Perhaps the real question is "Can you bladestorm during Overwatch?" which would be kind of awesome (perhaps too awesome) and really makes it painfully obvious that some of these codecies were written before they had Sixth on the mind. It's probably not so bad, right? You Bladestorm during Overwatch (assuming it's allowed) then can't fire in your normal turn...but you did just get assaulted so that's a non-issue, right? Probably not so bad.

I don't know. If your assault unit is on the receiving end of 3 shots per model in your opponent's shooting phase plus three more shots during his Overwatch shooting - I don't think they'll be in combat during their next Shooting phase...