Banshees/Quickening versus Unwieldy

[Morticon]

Quickening sets the model's I to 10. Unwieldy says attacks with the weapon happen at I1 (regardless of your I). So you have an I10 model with the weapon attacks coming at I1, so conflict.

 

Did you mean "no"conflict? Cause this would go counter to what you argued against me in the pile in thread?

I see that as no conflict there?

[dswanick]

Quickening sets the model's I to 10. Unwieldy says attacks with the weapon happen at I1 (regardless of your I). So you have an I10 model with the weapon attacks coming at I1, so conflict.

 

Did you mean "no"conflict? Cause this would go counter to what you argued against me in the pile in thread?

I see that as no conflict there?

Yeah, just a typo - meant 'no'. :)

[Gentlemanloser]

I'll post it, not PM it. ;)

 

Sorry if the older thread is the right place, just let me know and I'll delete this post and bump that one. ;)

 

Basically, Initiative Value (IV) *is* different to Initiative Step (IS). You have an IS that is equal to your modified IV. But this IS is a seperate value of it's own, and can be effected by things seperately to a minis IV.

 

Difficult Terrain tests and Unwieldy do nothing to modify a minis IV. They *only* modify the IS.

 

 

Some examples;

 

A SM Sarge with a Powerfist is IV:4 which then gives him an IS:4. The Powerfist then modifies the IS to IS:1. Leaving him as IV:4/IS:1. So he piles in at 4, and attacks at 1.

 

A GK with a NDH under the effects of Quicksilver is IV:10, which then gives him IS:10. The NDH then modifies the IS to IS1.

 

A SM Terminator Sarge with a Power Sword is IV:4, so therefore IS:4. He ends up in B2B with a lashwhip, which modifies his IV to IV1. His IS therefore becomes IS:1

 

 

As for Frags, they sadly don't work, due to a typo. Unlike Plasma 'nades they only allow the user attack at thier normal Iniative (Plasma allows the user to attack at thier normal Initiative Step).

 

A SM Sarge with a Power Sword charges through DT. He's IV:4, therefore IS:4. The DT modifies his IS to IS:1. He is still IV:4. The Frag grenades allow him to attack at his normal IV. Which he still is. He's still IV:4, so still piles in at IV:4. But the DT test has still made his IS:1, and the frags (unlike Plasma) do nothing to change that. Frags don't modify your IS in any way.

 

 

I hope this is easy to read! ;)

[Raeven]

I'll post it, not PM it. ;)

 

Sorry if the older thread is the right place, just let me know and I'll delete this post and bump that one. ;)

 

Basically, Initiative Value (IV) *is* different to Initiative Step (IS). You have an IS that is equal to your modified IV. But this IS is a seperate value of it's own, and can be effected by things seperately to a minis IV.

 

Difficult Terrain tests and Unwieldy do nothing to modify a minis IV. They *only* modify the IS.

 

 

Some examples;

 

A SM Sarge with a Powerfist is IV:4 which then gives him an IS:4. The Powerfist then modifies the IS to IS:1. Leaving him as IV:4/IS:1. So he piles in at 4, and attacks at 1.

 

A GK with a NDH under the effects of Quicksilver is IV:10, which then gives him IS:10. The NDH then modifies the IS to IS1.

 

A SM Terminator Sarge with a Power Sword is IV:4, so therefore IS:4. He ends up in B2B with a lashwhip, which modifies his IV to IV1. His IS therefore becomes IS:1

 

 

As for Frags, they sadly don't work, due to a typo. Unlike Plasma 'nades they only allow the user attack at thier normal Iniative (Plasma allows the user to attack at thier normal Initiative Step).

 

A SM Sarge with a Power Sword charges through DT. He's IV:4, therefore IS:4. The DT modifies his IS to IS:1. He is still IV:4. The Frag grenades allow him to attack at his normal IV. Which he still is. He's still IV:4, so still piles in at IV:4. But the DT test has still made his IS:1, and the frags (unlike Plasma) do nothing to change that. Frags don't modify your IS in any way.

 

 

I hope this is easy to read! ;)

 

 

:huh: Well, I hope you have fun playing the game. I couldn't under that "understanding".

[Gentlemanloser]

What about it needs clarification? I'll try to clear it up.

[Raeven]

Nothing needed clarification. We just completely disagree on the separation of initiative value vs. initiative step. Seems like a bit of a stretch to argue that they are separate. The argument invalidates initiative entirely.

[Gentlemanloser]

I prefer it to I10 Banshee's with Power Axes, and it actually follows the RAW nicely.

 

(As an amendment, as Nemesis Halberds don't mention Initiative Step, they actualy modify the minis Initiative Value)

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

I prefer it to I10 Banshee's with Power Axes, and it actually follows the RAW nicely.

I dare say that in accordance with the rules for multiple modifiers, the player who's turn it is gets to decide the order.

 

(As an amendment, as Nemesis Halberds don't mention Initiative Step, they actualy modify the minis Initiative Value)

They mention that the model strikes blows at +2 initiative, which I dare say if different from modifying the actual Initiative stat. They're still I4, they just strike at I4+2.

[rpnightsend]

I'm not disagreeing that there's academic merit to it. I don't suspect the impetus is academic merit, however. :)

Aww, thade - you used to be the one who was always so positive about other peoples motives. :(

This board is a scary place. That's why I don't come here often. It can even turn wonderful people like Thade against his compatriots.

[Gentlemanloser]

I dare say that in accordance with the rules for multiple modifiers, the player who's turn it is gets to decide the order.

 

Well, that was the original issue. If IV and IS were the same, then Codex > BRB.

 

But they're not the same stat.

 

They mention that the model strikes blows at +2 initiative, which I dare say if different from modifying the actual Initiative stat. They're still I4, they just strike at I4+2.

 

The Halberds don't mention IS, BRB mentions items that modify Initiative though. Halberds provide +2 IV for CC, in essence giving you +2 IS (before Unwiledy - which isn't in play here - or DT tests). This *only* effects the minis Pile In move anyway, and it stops the sillyness of a GK with NFH attacking at IS6 but pilining in at I4, after they have attacked.

 

Which is silly.

[Raeven]

Which is silly.

 

So is interpreting the rules in such a way that makes grenades meaningless and pile in occur at a different Initiative Step than your attack.

[Gentlemanloser]

Frags have an obvious typo. Plasma's work just fine.

 

Also Banshee Masks and Quicksilver (and NFH or any other codex rule/wargear) would not only ignore Unwiledy, but also DT terrain, if Initiative was the same as Initiative step.

 

Which is *far* sillier than piling in at 4, and attacking at 1 with an unwieldy weapon.

[Lysere]

Except the line, "Does not suffer the penalty to their Initiative," makes your point irrelevant. It says they suffer no penalty, so they swing just like the normally word. The next little phrase is missing one word that the plasma has but if anything that gimps plasma since assault grenades is a blanket statement for I, while plasma specifically says Initiative step. Except once again the first sentence makes this a moot point.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

I dare say that in accordance with the rules for multiple modifiers, the player who's turn it is gets to decide the order.

 

Well, that was the original issue. If IV and IS were the same, then Codex > BRB.

 

But they're not the same stat.

Well, they're not far off. For one, you pile in when you reach the IS that is equal to your IV, as seen in the BRB. While this does not make them equal, the one is based off the other.

 

They mention that the model strikes blows at +2 initiative, which I dare say if different from modifying the actual Initiative stat. They're still I4, they just strike at I4+2.

 

The Halberds don't mention IS, BRB mentions items that modify Initiative though. Halberds provide +2 IV for CC, in essence giving you +2 IS (before Unwiledy - which isn't in play here - or DT tests). This *only* effects the minis Pile In move anyway, and it stops the sillyness of a GK with NFH attacking at IS6 but pilining in at I4, after they have attacked.

 

Which is silly.

No, you have it backwards. A GK with a Halberd would strike at IS 6, as they "strike at I+2". However, the rulebooks clearly spells out that you Pile-In when you reach the IS that corresponds to your IV. Normally, the GK would Pile-In (if applicable) and the strike at I4. However, the Halberd spells out that the model strikes at I+2, in this case I6. So, swing the weapon at I6, then Pile-In at I4. In short, the rules state that when an IS is reached, any model who has an IV equal to the IS gets a Pile-In move. Using a Halberd does not make you I6, nor does using a powerfist make you I1. You still have I4. A halberd/powerfist fights at IS6/IS1, but is still IV4. And it IV that tells you when to Pile-In. But I'm getting OT.

 

More on topic: A model with a banshee mask and a power axe would Pile-In at IS10 and attack at IS1, as the rules are written. First round of combat, they're IV10, which is when they'd Pile-In, and then the axe forces them to wait until IS1 to attack.

 

As you can see, I have modified my opinion of how BM and power axes interact, having read carefully through the BRB and Codex: Eldar. Oh well. At least my Banshees have swords.

[Gentlemanloser]

Except the line, "Does not suffer the penalty to their Initiative," makes your point irrelevant. It says they suffer no penalty, so they swing just like the normally word. The next little phrase is missing one word that the plasma has but if anything that gimps plasma since assault grenades is a blanket statement for I, while plasma specifically says Initiative step. Except once again the first sentence makes this a moot point.

 

What penalty does a DT test give to Intiiative? None. So what penalty do frag grenades ignore? This is the bit that most everyone skips over.

 

The penalty DT tests impart is to make you attack at step 1, exactly like Unwieldy.

 

This is why Plasma works, and Frags currently don't.

 

No, you have it backwards. A GK with a Halberd would strike at IS 6, as they "strike at I+2".

 

There's two components to attacking in CC. You attack in CC with (unless modified) an IS equal to you IV. The BRB notes the wargear can modify IV. So, as the Halberd doesn't mention doing anything to your IS (unlike Unwieldy), it must be modifying your IV instead.

 

If the NFH were FAQed to say something like "you attack at an Initiative Step 2 higher than your Initiative Value", then they would attack at IS6, and pile in at IV4.

[Lysere]

Except the line, "Does not suffer the penalty to their Initiative," makes your point irrelevant. It says they suffer no penalty, so they swing just like the normally word. The next little phrase is missing one word that the plasma has but if anything that gimps plasma since assault grenades is a blanket statement for I, while plasma specifically says Initiative step. Except once again the first sentence makes this a moot point.

 

What penalty does a DT test give to Intiiative? None. So what penalty do frag grenades ignore? This is the bit that most everyone skips over.

 

The penalty DT tests impart is to make you attack at step 1, exactly like Unwieldy.

 

This is why Plasma works, and Frags currently don't.

 

 

Sorry I did not quote the whole rule, but it specifically says "Models equipped don't suffer the penalties to their Initiative for charging enemies through cover..."

 

There is only one penalty to Initiative that DT causes, therefore is the only one that can be ignored. If DT made the models I1 and strike at the I1 step I would understand your ruling perfectly. However as there is only one penalty applied, and the assault grenade specifically modifies this, I see it is a non issue. (Although the fact that this is even debatable is another sign of sloppy ruling)

[Gentlemanloser]

A penalty to Initiative isn't the same as a enalty to Initative Step.

 

What penalties does a mini charging through DT suffer? None.

 

DT only impacts thier Initiative Step.

 

A mini with I4 using a Power Fist and no assault grenades charging through DT Piles in at 4 and attacks at 1. DT doesn't effect this in any way. DT doesn't make then pile in at 1, or do anything else to them.

[Lysere]

A penalty to Initiative isn't the same as a enalty to Initative Step.

 

What penalties does a mini charging through DT suffer? None.

 

DT only impacts thier Initiative Step.

 

A mini with I4 using a Power Fist and no assault grenades charging through DT Piles in at 4 and attacks at 1. DT doesn't effect this in any way. DT doesn't make then pile in at 1, or do anything else to them.

 

Except they pile in at their I equal to the I step and then get their attacks. Making them swing at a different time then normal is either a bonus or penalty. As going slower is bad it is a penalty. Unless you have something like a power fist or power axe a marine would pile in and attack at 4. The wargear changes this, as does DT. However grenades are supposed to be the counter to this.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

No, you have it backwards. A GK with a Halberd would strike at IS 6, as they "strike at I+2".

 

There's two components to attacking in CC. You attack in CC with (unless modified) an IS equal to you IV. The BRB notes the wargear can modify IV. So, as the Halberd doesn't mention doing anything to your IS (unlike Unwieldy), it must be modifying your IV instead.

 

If the NFH were FAQed to say something like "you attack at an Initiative Step 2 higher than your Initiative Value", then they would attack at IS6, and pile in at IV4.

 

Codex: Grey Knights, page 54: "In addition, the wielder of a Nemesis halberd strikes at +2 Initiative."

 

So, they get to resolve their attacks at their normal Initiative +2. So, with your run-of-the-mill GK, that's IS 6. Their IV of 4, plus 2 for the halberd. They still remain IS 4. And it is when, and only when, you reach the IS that equals their IV that they get to Pile-In.

 

So, attacks at IS 6, Pile-In at IS 4.

 

What else do you think "strike" refers to?

 

Had it simply said that the halberd adds 2 to their Initiative, they'd get to both Pile-In and resolve their attacks at IS 6. But it doesn't. "..strikes at +2 Initiative." Strikes. Their IV hasn't been modified, only the timing at which they get to strike. They still Pile-In, Sweep, and do any Hit-and-Run trickery at Initiative 4 (or whatever else their IV is). Same with Unwieldy. You attack at IS 1 with an Unwieldy weapon, it doesn't make your IV 1. IS and IV are not the same, as you so nicely pointed out. And Pile-Ins are done, once again, at the IS that equals your IV.

[LostAlone]

I know this board is all about rules lawyering and people claiming that if the rules don't specifically say it doesn't work like that then it does, but I'm going to stick my oar in, in an attempt to help folks think things through.

 

Now, of course nothing here is exactly Rules As Written, I'm just going to walk you through how my friends and I worked all this stuff out as we played.

 

Unwieldy = Strikes last. No, that's not exactly what it means. But it helps to think about it like that. Nothing that you can do can change that.

 

As for more technical stuff:

 

Initiative is a characteristic. It can be modified.

(A) It can be modified forever: say you have weapon that gives +1 I (so the models base I4 never existed, the models statline reads I5).

(:P It can be modified briefly: say +1 until end of phase/turn (so the models base I4 becomes I5 until the end of the phase/turn, and anytime during that period that I is checked, it will read 5, any other time 4).

© It can be modified for a split second when the stat is checked: Strikes at +1 Initiative (so when and only when you check your models I to determine when it strikes. Imagine that at the start of a round of combat, you write down every models I on a piece of paper. For a model with this kind of weapon, you would write down 4+1=5. That's the only time you get the bonus)

 

In any case where the initiative value is not permanently set (B or C) you only get to add the modifier at the time it says you get it. Any other time that your I is checked, it reads the base value. Specifically, for the halberds, they are doing © not (A). If they were (A) then it would say 'A model with a halberd has +2 I'. It doesn't say that. It says '...strikes blows at +2 I'.

 

The problem with the new combat system is that it seems to say that initiative is only checked at the equivilent initiative step, because you start with who has the highest base I and work your way down. Because the halberd isn't permanently changing your stat, it seems to say that you resolve I6, then I5, then I4 and THEN when you are about to strike the halberd says '+2 Initiative', which isn't helpful because I6 is already finished. It's extremely poorly worded.

 

So for our playgroup, we add a step to the combat. We check what I every model in the combat should strike at, write them down, then go down the list. If something like a lashwhip changes an I value mid-combat, you cross one out and add a 1 to the bottom.

[DarkGuard]

OK guys, lets not get snippy and sarcastic with each other. Keep it cool, and if you're coming onto the keyboard without a cool head step back for a bit and then come back.

[Gentlemanloser]

All the pertinent quotes.

 

Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a model's Initiative.

 

a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat.

 

At the start of each Initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current initiative step

 

When their Initiative step is reached, models with that Initiative who are still alive must attack.

 

The rules for NFH are an edition out, and haven't been FAQed properly. They should probably read something like "attack at an Iniative Step of Iniative +2" or the like.

 

Currently, they don't, and don't mention Initiative Step at all.

 

So, looking at the quotes above. Initiative determins when he attacks. What's a GK with Halberds Initiative? 4. Initiative Step (unless *specifically* modified) is equal to Initiative. So, in this case, still 4. You attack when your Initiative Step is reached. Still 4.

 

But the first quote mentions wargears ability to modify Initiative.

 

The *only* was a Nemesis Force Halberd can allow a GK using one to 'strike' at +2 Iniative, is to temporarily modify that users Initiative Value to +2, or 6 in this case. (This still doesn't effect characteristic tests, like hit and run, or sweeping adanve, or the like. As by RAW, they use unmodified values anyway)

 

You could always rule that Halberds just don't work at all...

 

I prefer to fit it into the rules to allow them to work. The only chnge this makes it the GK piles in at I6, which ignores the silly that they otherwise attack at I6 and then pile in at I4.

 

Which is just silly.

 

What else do you think "strike" refers to?

 

In 6th editions CC rules, what does it mean/refer to?

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

All the pertinent quotes.

 

Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a model's Initiative.

 

a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat.

 

At the start of each Initiative step, any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current initiative step

 

When their Initiative step is reached, models with that Initiative who are still alive must attack.

 

The rules for NFH are an edition out, and haven't been FAQed properly. They should probably read something like "attack at an Iniative Step of Iniative +2" or the like.

 

Currently, they don't, and don't mention Initiative Step at all.

 

So, looking at the quotes above. Initiative determins when he attacks. What's a GK with Halberds Initiative? 4. Initiative Step (unless *specifically* modified) is equal to Initiative. So, in this case, still 4. You attack when your Initiative Step is reached. Still 4.

 

But the first quote mentions wargears ability to modify Initiative.

 

The *only* was a Nemesis Force Halberd can allow a GK using one to 'strike' at +2 Iniative, is to temporarily modify that users Initiative Value to +2, or 6 in this case. (This still doesn't effect characteristic tests, like hit and run, or sweeping adanve, or the like. As by RAW, they use unmodified values anyway)

 

You could always rule that Halberds just don't work at all...

 

I prefer to fit it into the rules to allow them to work. The only chnge this makes it the GK piles in at I6, which ignores the silly that they otherwise attack at I6 and then pile in at I4.

 

Which is just silly.

I'm going to have to repeat myself, I see.

 

First of all, the halberd doesn't, in fact, modify a model's Initiative. It doesn't say anywhere that it adds +2 to their Initiative, nor does it count for Sweeping, H&R, or anything of the sort, unlike, say, Mark of Slaanesh ("...gains +1 Initiative").

 

Secondly, looking at the rules, we learn the following. 1: Models whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step, that isn't already in base contact with an enemy model, must make a Pile In move. 2: Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached, assuming a faster model hasn't offed them at this point. With this in mind, we arrive at the following: A model with Initiative 4 would Pile In and resolve their attacks ("strike") when you reach IS 4. A model with Initiative 4 and the Mark of Slaanesh would be Initiative 5, and so would Pile In and attack at IS 5. A model with a Banshee mask, in the first round of the combat, would Pile In and attack at IS 10 (unless using an Unwieldy weapon). Now, the halberd specifically says to resolve the model's Attacks at their Initiative +2. In effect, they attack before they would normally be allowed to. The text doesn't say that the model's Initiative has been altered, however. Unlike the Mark of Slaanesh, they wouldn't get the bonus to Sweeps, H&R, or any other shenanigans that use Initiative. So they are still Initiative 4.

 

I'll put in an example, using Some Banshees (with swords), some GKs (some with halberds, some with swords), and some Storm Guardians lead by a Warlock with Enhance, and joined by a Farseer. We'll assume the Eldar have charged, on clear and open ground.

 

IS 10: Banshees Pile In and resolve their attacks.

IS 9-7: n/a

IS 6: Farseer Piles In and resolves his attacks (Enhance adds +1 to Initiative and WS, Farseers are normally Initiative 5). GKs with halberds resolve their attacks (their Initiative +2).

IS 5: Storm Guardians Pile In and resolve their attacks, as do the Warlock (both normally Iniative 4).

IS 4: GKs Pile In and those with swords resolve their attacks.

IS 3-1: n/a

 

Combat resolution and any Sweeping Advances are then conducted as laid out in the rules.

 

Note that Enhance specifically says it adds to the relevant stats.

 

This is all by RAW. Normally, GKs would all attack at IS 4, unless wielding an Unwieldy weapon (such as an axe or a thunder hammer). They'd also Pile In at IS 4, even those with Unwieldy weapons. Those GKs fortunate enough to have halberds get to resolve their attacks before their normal IS, and so get to swing at IS 6 (their Initiative +2), but they are still Initiative 4, which is what is used when you Pile In.

 

Once again, halberds let you strike (that is, resolve your attacks, which in this case means roll to hit, roll to wound, and then do the allocate/save dance number, with all its twists and turns) at Initiative +2. Pile In are still conducted at the IS that equals your Initiative, which for rank and file GKs means IS 4. Doesn't matter one iota that they're carrying swords, halberds or huge hammers, their Initiative of 4 is used to Pile In (as well as H&R and Sweeping).

 

Sure, it's silly to attacks at one IS and then Pile In at another, but it's no sillier than doing a Pile In and then having to twiddle your thumbs while you wait for your turn. And as we all should know after several editions of 40k, RAW can sometimes be sillier than circus clowns (see the rules for challenges for more silliness, especially when you throw in a lone IC in a chariot). Silliness, or lack of it, has nothing to do with RAW, and so should not be used when applying RAW. "The rules say to do X, but that's silly, so we'll do Y" is not an argument from RAW, it's an argument from "I don't like it."

 

And RAW is what we care about here. Not personal taste. While we wait for an FAQ, that's all we have to go on.

 

What else do you think "strike" refers to?

 

In 6th editions CC rules, what does it mean/refer to?

Resolving the model's attacks, naturally. Roll to hit, roll to wound, watch as the opponent does his saves and allocations and whatnot.

 

I'll restate my case, just so it doesn't get lost in all the words (tl;dr): Your Initiative stat is used for Pile Ins. Unless the item, power, special rule or whathaveyou says it adds to a model's Initiative, they Pile In at the IS that equals the number under their Initiative stat. Usually, you'd also resolve a model's attacks at this time. Some items however, like halberds, lets you resolve a model's attacks before it reaches this IS, but does not modify their Initiative. And some force models to wait longer before they get to attack (notably Unwieldy weapons), but they still Pile In at the IS equal to the number of their Initiative stat.

[Gentlemanloser]

First of all, the halberd doesn't, in fact, modify a model's Initiative. It doesn't say anywhere that it adds +2 to their Initiative, nor does it count for Sweeping, H&R, or anything of the sort, unlike, say, Mark of Slaanesh ("...gains +1 Initiative").

 

Characteristic tests are all made using the unmodified value.

 

So the only thing effected by this is the pile in move.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

First of all, the halberd doesn't, in fact, modify a model's Initiative. It doesn't say anywhere that it adds +2 to their Initiative, nor does it count for Sweeping, H&R, or anything of the sort, unlike, say, Mark of Slaanesh ("...gains +1 Initiative").

 

Characteristic tests are all made using the unmodified value.

 

So the only thing effected by this is the pile in move.

Which does nothing to counter my argument.