BA Tacticals, now viable in 6th?

[MadMek83]

Since overwatch and such rules came in 6th edition, I was wondering if Tacticals came now a tad more viable for Blood Angels? I mean drop podding a tactical unit near enemy, disembark so you get most cover trying to get rapid fire range and then blast everything you have on that poor unit. In most cases you windle down now enough body that assaulting them is no nearly as dangerous (if you're lucky you also kill that squads ppossible template weapons).

 

I find that quite succesful in my limited 6th edition gaming. I also try to combo play with tactical marines with naked sanguine priest landing near enemy shoot whatever they can and deepstrike my ASM's near. Then in next turn try to move my tacticals suitable place for whittling down enemy, moving sanguinary priest with them and ASM's with-in the FNP bubble / Furious charge range, before shooting and charging.

 

Now its harder to pull off but... quite devastating when you manage to do that and time everything right. These are my highly limited experiences and they seem to work and make BA tacticals now actually quite viable but it might be just me. Later while playing Eldars I've come to use more combo's and supporting assault elements instead before playing eldars just trying to get asap with minimal casualties on enemy and tackle them in close combat...

 

However drop podded tacticals forming spearhead and supporting assault marines now seem to work nicely. Against Dark Eldars, Eldars it seems to be highly effective and other marines can be bit of an trouble too. I kinda never thought that my kitbashed tactical BA squad made for fun and lack of painting would be this useful. I find it hard to believe but I am tabling now almost every game single unit of tacticals.

 

Based on this, I wonder if you guys have tried tacticals now in 6th edition? What is your experience of them?

[BloodReavers]

If they had close combat weapons, and could swap out their heavy for a special weapon and counter charge, they'd be one of the best units in the game now. That being said, I'm forced to take "counts as" Space Wolves to tournaments to "keep up with the Joneses." With Eldar allies.

 

I never had to do that before, even during the .pdf days of woe.

 

It seems our strengths now lie in our Death Company, FNP, and the ability to use it to save marines even from plasma. You thought Dark Angels were the plasma kings? Everyone else can either equal or out-assault us after shooting us, and our "Fast Tax" on vehicles is moot except for the predator chassis tanks.

[The Yncarne]

I have no experience with the new ruleset so forgive my ignorance. I am here to learn.

 

I think the OP's tactical squad scenario would be more effective using Sternguard. All of the same tactics would work but with the added flexibility of ranged choices. Of course, this unit is not scoring unless you have Pedro K. as your commander.

 

I know the conventional wisdom is that rhinos are dead in the edition with the 3 glances = destroyed rule. Here's where my ignorance really shines: would 2-4 rhinos with perhaps 2-3 dreads last 2 turns? What I want to try is two combat-squaded tactical squads in rhinos. I use the fast rhinos to move them to close or mid-field objectives and disembark no later than turn 2. These squads are objective campers and mid-field support for the last half of the game. I can then run dreads behind the rhinos.

 

This is how I more or less ran 1-2 tacticals in my 5th edition lists. They didn't see much action, but with the new edition's improvements to marine ranged combat, I'm not seeing any need to change this tactic. The ability to reposition the bolters and still fire a heavy is better, even if you only use it once or twice.

 

I see two weak points: First Blood, and, of course, the vehicles being destroyed first turn. What else am I missing? If the conventional wisdom is less vehicles will be taken, will 2 tactical squads be better than a squad of devastators for anti-vehicle or monstrous creature killer? I think any assault squads I take will still be toting melta so that bit of anti-vehicle remains.

 

There is no doubt that death company, corbulo, storm ravens and honor guard are currently seen as "the best" options. But I do see a role for tacticals.

[Mezkh]

A tactical squad has been good in my games of 6th yes. Being able to declare the Heavy Weapon as standing stationary, and move and shoot bolters at 24" and combat squadding in Rhinos makes all the difference in the world.

 

Plus with razor rebate spam going the way of the dodo, Troop options became more limited.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

If I'm using allied SW, I will always run Blood Hunters (ie Grey Hunters.... sure do look like Blood Angel tacticals tho.... the only thing I'm borrowing is their rules!)

 

If I'm allying IG, then it's an Astorath list with 3+ DC squads and spamming cheap IG to do all my scoring for me.

 

I don't ally non-Imperium. "This isn't 'Nam Larry.... there are rules."

 

 

So sadly, the only conceivable reason I'd ever see for taking BA Tacticals (w/their actual rules) would be if somehow they'd be inside a SangPriest FnP bubble.

[The Yncarne]

So you really like the allies bit? :yes:

 

I guess that approach is "the best" in some ways. I'm just not sure I want to play that kind of game, but I do understand why people do.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

So you really like the allies bit? :yes:

 

I guess that approach is "the best" in some ways. I'm just not sure I want to play that kind of game, but I do understand why people do.

 

 

Yeppppp... the allies system only balances itself out if everyone at least considers it when list-writing. Otherwise you're simply giving yourself a handicap. Some lists are strongest when pure-- and some are not. Why would you not use the best tools available to you?

 

That being said, I think maybe only 1% of people who play 40K don't give any care at all about the fluff. Even the most WAAC dude ever has only paid his hundreds of $$ into his army because of the depth and richness of the lore and universe. That will temper the situation 'some'--- Even now I've see bloggers modeling their 'enslaved Farseer' with chains and spikes to include with their DE.

 

But then some of the Allies possible are just..... GW Fail-tastic.

 

So Allies? Yes-- they're here, they're good, get used to it. My hat is off to all the Purists--- They tend to give the best friendly and fun games, win-record regardless.

 

 

 

So will I balance out my Blood Angels with some borrowed SW rules? Absolutely-- and I won't feel bad about it either when that Divination Wolf Priest gives Prescience to a 50-man blob IG squad who receive the order to 1st Rank 2nd Rank on me....

[Deschenus Maximus]

I've been considering the following:

 

10 Tacticals, Plasma gun, Plasma cannon (if I don't have any assault elements)/Missile Launcher (if I do)

Razorback - Twin plasma/las

 

If I go second, the Razors go into Reserves so they at least have a chance to shoot one turn before dying.

[Sir Blayse]

I'm still not convinced that rhinos/razorbacks are dead. You just have to play them different. So far they've done ok in most of my games... or about the same as they did before. Just not as good as an assault platform. Drop pods would be nice for tac squads, since you can now fire at 24" and get one shot each. So even if your not in rapid-fire you can dish out some damage. Overwatch makes tac squads evil. Flamer is a great choice in tac squads. I'd still stick with Melta's in the RAS though. Also, the rhino/razorback is best with the tacs. RAS should be either JP, DP, or in a Landraider.

 

I'm still testing out my options, but as far as I can tell the only army type that really bit it, was DoA. Even it is still sort of there, just not as it used to be.

[Chairman_woo]

I'm still testing out my options, but as far as I can tell the only army type that really bit it, was DoA. Even it is still sort of there, just not as it used to be.

 

DOA hasn't changed that much just that now we bring a drop pod or two of tactical shootyness and some scouts along too. Oh and death company :confused:! Even in 5th I found (as many others did) that most of the time you would only reserve a handfull of units and use the speed of JP's & cover to move up the bulk of your force, in this case perhaps to link up with your handy "must DS turn 1" unit of tacs in the midfield as suggested previously.

 

As far as plasma drop pod squads in general I was thinking that a nice cheap barebones sangpriest with a combiplasma might be a nice compliment to the plasma gun, combi-plas tactical squad (tho I'm thinking heavy bolter for cheapness, coolness and extra snap shots) and just generally make no effort to tool for cc as a. They won't ever be good at it and b. It would make them too expensive to be viable. It's only going to be worth it if you expect to have a couple of other tac or simmilar nearby, and some jump death co. Or sanguard within counterstrike range to punish anyone foolish enough to charge a BA gunline!

 

Just my thoughts at 6am, I am now, as always prepared to be proven completely wrong in all possible regards......

[Oka]

I am all for tacs on 6th, we need alot more scoring units now, i just had a game, 6 objetives we need at least 3 scoring units plus some denials.

Yes on the days of 6th we all have alot of nice options, with flyers, fortifications, allys and even with just our own codex we have DC, Termis, Guard and Bikes, just to name a few, but in the end we still need scoring units, and that means tac or assault marines (plus a few options, but it will be hard to relly on)

[BloodReavers]

Well, the way I see it now, is that we are a codex space marine chapter even more than before. Our unique way of doing things, (razorbacks and all jumpers) has seemed to become less effective. What are the codex marines doing to make themselves effective? Then we add our priests for toughness and a death company unit.

[Morticon]

Our unique way of doing things, (razorbacks and all jumpers)

 

But unique since when?

Im sure our last dex (pre pdf) didnt allow us to have all jumpers. And razor back spam wasnt huge then.

And before we had overcharged on a 4+, wasnt super then either.

We can still do all jumpers, we just dont deploy all off table - it just requires a tactic change. But most of 6th is about that.

And Im not convinced razor lists are dead - they move faster than before and fire more weapons than before- and against heavy weapons AP3 or more, they're more survivable than before.

[Emperors Immortals]

And Im not convinced razor lists are dead - they move faster than before and fire more weapons than before- and against heavy weapons AP3 or more, they're more survivable than before.

 

 

Totally agree, as far as I can see, the razor/rhino is at least as durable as 5th ed. Itll still take a fairly lucky shot (or15) to down it and we still want to avoid melta, its just that blast is more dangerous and we dont get locked as much. Win.

[Zhukov]

And Im not convinced razor lists are dead - they move faster than before and fire more weapons than before- and against heavy weapons AP3 or more, they're more survivable than before.

Correct. Moving faster and still firing 2 weapons at full BS might actually be more important than initially thought too. Why? Because close combat destroys vehicles with ease now. We are better capable of simply moving away to avoid that, while still firing.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

If they had close combat weapons, and could swap out their heavy for a special weapon and counter charge..

 

They'd be Grey Hunters, which are the Real Mans Tactical Squad^TM.

[Sixestohit]

I'll be using a tactical squad. One in a drop pod.

 

Drop pod arrives turn one with a locator beacon and the tactical squad will have a tele homer just in case. I'll probably only be DS'ing my terminator squad and Land Raider (FILLED WITH DEATHCOMPANY AHAHAHAHAHH) so this will help get them where I need them. If the pod gets shredded then the tac squads homer will bring my termys in safely and Corbulos reroll will get my LRC there with more chance.

 

As for rhinos and razors, they still work alright as long as you don't have much intention of using them in any way shape or form to assault from. I'll be taking a razorback with a plasma honour guard so they can drive 6, dismount 6 and fire 24, effective range 36" plasma guns. My sister allies will probably be all mounted in rhinos for the same purpose because they'll be there for fire support.

 

James.

[Chairman_woo]

I'll be using a tactical squad. One in a drop pod.

 

Drop pod arrives turn one with a locator beacon and the tactical squad will have a tele homer just in case. I'll probably only be DS'ing my terminator squad and Land Raider (FILLED WITH DEATHCOMPANY AHAHAHAHAHH) so this will help get them where I need them. If the pod gets shredded then the tac squads homer will bring my termys in safely and Corbulos reroll will get my LRC there with more chance.

 

James.

 

I was thinking something close to this for my jump list tho rather than a raider I'm thinking 10 or so death co. in a 2nd drop pod to support my DOA units when they drop and using the teleport homer purely for a juicy unit of Terminators (going to experiment with tac and assault as both appear to have their merrits). Gets the tac squad into a midfield support position early on so it can claim objectives and provide firepower in later turns (or alternatively provides the bait to draw & spread the enemy force out a bit making my life easier on the drop) with a 10 man plasma gun Jump ASM starting on the board and moving up to join them turn 2 or so. This facilitates my bolter death co dropping alongside my Sanguard, vangaurd vets and ASM squad turn 2-3 for some extra firepower on the drop & to really give the enemy a dilemma about which unit they want to try and not be charged by next turn. A couple of flame pistols might do nicely there as others have suggested to buff their overwatch there given the pods special mishap avoiding scatter makes them the ideal unit to try and place as a buffer against the enemy charging my more delicate units waiting to charge nearby :lol:. Still not decided if a nice cheap combi-plas sang preist is worth it on the tac's tho...

[Sixestohit]

Sounds like a plan, I like your thinking on this, if we can keep the enemy concentrating on "OMG A TAC SQUAD IN MY DEPLOYMENT ZONE!" then our other stuff will be safer.

 

My problem with an extra priest is that I'm always running 3 and don't want to use up another elites choice. That being said, I'm running out of places to put Corbulo, damn him and his lack of jump pack!

 

James.

[MadMek83]

I have to agree. Fast Rhinos and Razors are still very viable. ASMs in flameback is nice fast lil unit for capturing single point. TL Heavy flamer migjht be surprisngly effective when attacking or defending a scoring point. Its not that BA's game has changed THAT much. It just got whole alot more options and working combinations. Getting closer to vanilla marines in play style but still lacking some of their nifty upgrades like artificer armours, digital weapons and things like that... If you just could get jumppack captain or HQ's generally a artificer armour... But I doubt it will never happen.

 

But I guess I am getting 2nd tactical squad myself, paint them for Fleshtearers for change and run some Flesh Tearer tacts with regular BA tacts in drop pods while Flesh Teaarer and BA small attack elements in Flamebacks hold back for last minute contesting objectives, clearing some pesky scouts and small things like that.

 

I do like idea of homing beacon drop pod. If you get such thing close the enemy, you could teleport a small hammernator group to wreck havock while DC is already rampaging the board. No need to invest huge amount of points into Landraider.

[Chairman_woo]

No need to invest huge amount of points into Landraider.

 

Everytime I seriously consider a Raider I end up thinking "but thats 5-6 extra terminators that could be deepstriking in" & with teleport homer tacs, scouts and beacon drop pods this is not especially hard to facilitate without worrying too much about DS mishaps. Given even the most hardened DOA nuts (well me atleast) have a good reason to be bringing such units along every time now, and likewize the mech/transport heavy armies, deep Striking Termies appear to have just become a viable option for most BA armies (where perhaps they were much harder to fit in & justify without list tayloring before).

 

So yeh going back to the OP it appears that not only are tacticals now entirely viable for most BA lists, but this simple fact has opened the door somewhat to ways of bringing and employing two of our other "bufed back to awesome by 6th" units (namely Death co. and terminators) without investing in expensive raiders, fragile rhino's or painfully slow footslogging out of the DZ. w00ty w00! ;)

[Sir Blayse]

Well at least I have a real use for my four squads of FT tac squads. When I first started I picked up about about four to five squads that were already painted up as FT's, didn't know much about them at first. Once I learned about the fluff, I was hooked on them, picked up Seth and I've had a blast running the FT's. Though I quickly did up a whole bunch of assault guys. I'm thinking I may work up a few lists with 2 Tac Squads and 2 Assault squads. I've got a few tactics in mind and if I keep the RAS with priest behind the tacs they will get the buff also. Once I get in range, then I can combo rapid-fire and then assault with RAS. Also, I'm going to be adding a few bolters to my DC for sure now. The new Rage makes them really good and if they have a lot more options.